Dynapck at LRP for the NARRCs

[lateapex911]

A few years back, a company brought a chassis dyno to LRP for the NARRCs, and it was pretty cool.

A bunch of us in IT have always wanted to get all the players on the same dyno, on the same day. In the past, we've seen the dyno actually eliminate friction between teams.

We think it would be great to legitimize the great efforts we've seen this year. So far, we have solid commitments from a number of guys at the very front of the field. There are lots of ways to organize this, and those are being worked out, but it's important to have a handle on the interest going in.

For those unfamiliar, the Dynapack is a chassis dyno that is really quite neat. It bolts to the hubs of the car, and eliminates the entire tire/roller interface issues, and produces accurate and consistent numbers.

Here's what we we thinking. One run, $50, 3 runs, $100 or so. Of course, this wouldn't be limited to IT guys or just the guys at the front of the pack. All would be welcome. Heck, I'll bring this years race car, AND next years car to get a baseline on it, too. The convenience factor is huge!

So....any interest???? I need to get back to the shop early the week of the 12th to move it forward.

Thanks!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Not only am I in but I think this would go a long way to really bringing some folklore out of the closet. I challenge the top 5 in every class to participate.

My ITA Miata is in 100%. Might be a good cross-post to the Northeast section on specmiata.com...

AB

[lateapex911]

Cross post away Andy! (Jim Daniels took issue with a comment I made there years ago and I'm no longer welcome there, LOL)

[RSTPerformance]

ok... never used a Dyno... so the question is:

What is the gain of having 3 pulls rather than 1 pull? Could the first pull not have accuracte results, thus the need to have 3 pulls to get a good number? or do you do 3 pulls after tinkering with a few things such as timing?

As for will we do it? depends on the value. What do I gain by having 1 pull? What do I gain by having 2 or 3 pulls?

If having 1 pull gains me nothing but being able to say I haved X amount of HP at the wheels then I have no reason to do it other than to compair my car to my brothers car and/or prove some sort of legality. I suspect that most other people won't do it in ITB so I have no interest in putting myself out thier and knowone else doing the same. However I could convince myself to do it if... I was paying for someone else that was at the top and that person paid for me, basicaly I find value in compairing myself to another one of my front running competitors. If everyone does it (at least 2 or 3 other people), then I am in, if nobody else is willing to do it then I am out.

Raymond "thinking a bit" Blethen

[Andy Bettencourt]

Raymond,

Someone has to be the first to put themselves out there. The ITA guys are into it so that we can all know what we are putting to the ground - it legitimizes wins and makes for excellent comparisons - allowing you to decide if you are being beaten by driving or motor.

These are not 'tuning' runs. Multiple runs are usually used to achieve the absolute max in hp as all fluids are warm and everything is at operating temp. Depending on when the testing was done in proximity to on-track run-groups, one run would sufficient.

Ask yourself these questions:

1. Would you pay $50 to quiet any skeptics who thought you must be cheating because you are at the front?

2. Would you pay $50 to participate in an apples to apples comparison with other drivers in your class?

3. Would you pay $50 to compare your 'budget' effort to some of the top $$$ guys in your class?

4. Would you pay $50 to learn that you made the same power as the top guys and needed to focus on your driving?

5 Would you pay $50 to learn that you were X% off power-wise to the top guys and either be happy with that or begin to step up your program?

I am sure there are many more. Just do it! I think it's important for the top guys in each class to participate.

[Greg Amy]

The gauntlet has been tossed...and I pick it up!



(I'd look pretty stoopid if I didn't, given I'm one of the instigators...)

[JohnRW]

Will there be tropies for the best dyno runs ?

Since they're 'proof' runs and not 'tuning' runs, what's to keep somebody from jacking a little timing out of their engine beforehand to drop the numbers down a bit ? I'm always really skeptical of 'proof' runs, unless carried out under squeaky clean, laboratory conditions.

Of course, I won't have a car there, so you're all free to ignore me. Just be careful driving around the paddock, and don't knock over any garbage cans.

[RSTPerformance]

Ask yourself these questions:

1. Would you pay $50 to quiet any skeptics who thought you must be cheating because you are at the front?

2. Would you pay $50 to participate in an apples to apples comparison with other drivers in your class?

3. Would you pay $50 to compare your 'budget' effort to some of the top $$$ guys in your class?

4. Would you pay $50 to learn that you made the same power as the top guys and needed to focus on your driving?

5 Would you pay $50 to learn that you were X% off power-wise to the top guys and either be happy with that or begin to step up your program?

I am sure there are many more. Just do it! I think it's important for the top guys in each class to participate.
[/b]

Andy-

Thanks for the info... and asking myself those questions I say heck yes!!! I am concerned though that others in ITB will not be interested at making the runs. Wait what am I saying??? All the ITB guys (sorry no gals here in the northeast anymore in IT have been stressing legality and what not this season so I am sure that the entire class will want to run on the Dyno!!! Other ITB'ers can we get some feedback? Are you in?

Raymond "I will have the $50.00 in my pocket and the car ready to go IF others are also doing it " Blethen


Jake-

Any chance someone (the dyno guy) wants to support/sponsor the IT contingents at this event?

$100 cash reward to the first place car
$50 cash reward to the second place car
$25 cash reward to the third place car

Make any car that has run at least one run on the Dyno that weekend and runs his stickers for support eligable. I would be willing to make up the vynil for them.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Will there be tropies for the best dyno runs ?

Since they're 'proof' runs and not 'tuning' runs, what's to keep somebody from jacking a little timing out of their engine beforehand to drop the numbers down a bit ? I'm always really skeptical of 'proof' runs, unless carried out under squeaky clean, laboratory conditions.

Of course, I won't have a car there, so you're all free to ignore me. Just be careful driving around the paddock, and don't knock over any garbage cans. [/b]

You and that garbage can joke - won't go away!

Nothing really to stop anyone from 'cheating' the test, but it isn't official and is voluntary. I would love to see if we can coordinate it for right after each qualifying - drive right to the dyno and take a run. If we get a daily charge from the guy, we can split up the cost even better - assuming people want to learn something!

You have to commit - and then ask people to join you. A 'if you do it , I will do it' approach will net a big ZERO in ITB - and the legality questions will continue.

And you can't 'win'...what incentive would I have to put my underpowered Miata on the dyno if it was a power contest? It's a nice 'proofing' and everyone should learn a lot!

[gran racing]

How valuable will the numbers be to those who do not have competitors with the same make / model? Since Ray and Greg sound like they may do it, is there much value learning that the Audi makes 130 HP at the wheels and the NX2000 makes 160 HP? Although I am very curious to see what some cars are making.

Would there be a feasable way to make it part of the post race inspection process? Or even do a few random ones post qual. then some post race? How much would it cost to get it for the day?

[dickita15]

Once upon a time far far away there was, or so the story goes, a CRX driver and a Integra driver who used to suspect the other were cheating an consequently did not like each other. They finally both went to the dyno together and compared numbers. They learned that they both had similar power to weight ratios and were both actually just good drivers with well prepped cars. They got along much better after that and enjoyed their racing much more. I guess you could say they lived happily ever after.

[lateapex911]

Dave, tell me you wouldn't just love to know what the guys in B are putting down! Dynos are great devices...Andy has made great points. IMO, all the classes should embrace the chance.

3 runs are best, as you can see consistency...things get warmer, (and friction is reduced in trans and diffs, so power goes up) or things warm up and the engine heat soaks....and power drops. Better science with multiple pulls.

For $50, I would think nearly every racer in the paddock would be curious, even if they already know....as to compare yourself against the same guys on the same day on the same dyno is huge. THe spec 944 guys from NASA are big fans.

I think we'll see the top guys from the area do it, and post some solid numbers....I don't think they have anything to hide.

As for contingency prizes, we'll have to see, but my main concern is making the numbers work so that we can pull it off at all.

Dicks story is a true story, but it cost those guys a heck of a lot more than this will.

[dazzlesa]

from what i remember the dynapak #'s are different than lets say a mustang or a dynojet. but it is a good tool for comparison.i have no problem doing it with my B civic. it would be interesting to see where its at.On the other hand there is no way you can see what the A car does.i wont do it. i refuse to find out that i can not drive and that the hp makes me look good . rick

[TimM ITB]

Raymond and others - count me in! As a matter of fact, I think it's a great idea to get as many in our ITB group to join in as possible. I would love to see what the other cars in our group (especially the VW MK1's, MK2's and MK3's) are pulling for numbers! The more information that is "in the light" - the better it is for everyone. We have been on the "legality" bandwagon since April, and although this is not anything more than comparing dyno numbers, it is a continued step in the right direction. Besides, we can't have the ITA guys showing us up!
Tim M

[dazzlesa]

thinking about it, i would love to see comparisons. i was surprised to get beat by greg from turn one to the bus stop at the glen. even andys mosquito had plenty of steam at lrp. if i get both cars there i will join the party.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Maybe we should make a list as to why guys WOULDN'T want to get on the dyno in front of his/her peers. Have fun with that one!

[Greg Amy]

Rick, both Andy and I will divvy up, and I'm betting we can count on JoeD and Jeff Lawton, too. Further, Anthony has expressed interest in meeting up with me for dyno comparos, so I'm sure he'd be interested in you having your A car pulled too... - GA

from what i remember the dynapak #'s are different than lets say a mustang or a dynojet.
[/b]

They do. Unless you want me to get off on my "DynoJet" rant, let me simply say that the DynaPack provides a true, accurate, repeatable measurement of wheel torque and calculates horsepower from there (as opposed to the others which measure rate of acceleration, infer horsepower from that, and reverse-engineer torque from that inference.)

When you get measured by a DynaPack, you know you're getting an accurate number. - GA

[lateapex911]

Right. As a guy on the ITAC, I would kill for all our knowledge to come from torque measuring devices. As far as i'm concerned the Dynapak it the best option by far for most of us club racers.

[RSTPerformance]

Ok with TIm and Rick in I am in. Settled I can also say with certainty that Stephen will also be in.

Thats 4 ITB cars!!!

Raymond Blethen ITB Audi
Stephen Blethen ITB Audi
Tim Mullen ITB MKIII
Rick benazic ITB honda civic


As for the sponsorship/contingency. I think that it would be respectful to supply some sort of contingency, even if you add in another requirement... at least 5 cars from the class need to take at leat 1 run.

Profit: 5 cars X $50 = $250 minimum
Contingency: $100 (1st) + $50(2nd) + $25(3rd) = $175 Maximum total payout

Minimum profits if the top 3 were eligable would be $75 per class.

Probable classes that will have enough cars IF thier were a contingency would be ITA, ITB, ITS, SM, SSM (or 5 classes) I don't mean to leave out ITC I am just worried that you wont all do it :P , but it would be cool to compair all the rates among all the different classes, I would be interested to see as many of the ITC cars have very similar times and I think most of it is handling, not HP.

Anyway 5 classes * $75 minimum profit = $375. If you ask me that is a bare bottom min and while I respect gaining a profit, people renting cars are not even making much more than that for a days work.

Raymond

[lateapex911]

Raymond, you have to remember, this is a lot of work for somebody, and there are expenses that will be incurred. You can't just spout off numbers as profits when you have no idea of the costs involved. If he has the unit at Lime Rock, that means he's potentially turning away clients at the shop....lost revenue, aka more costs. So this needs to be a clear upside for him. At this point we're looking at the possibilities and the potential numbers to see if there's even a chance at making it work numbers-wise.

And there are more hoops that I need to jump through....Lime Rock will be all over this if it appears to be a money making proposition....and posting awards certainly makes it look like that.


Then we need to get the Regions blessings (calls have been placed).

This isn't a slam dunk.