ARRC Schedule

[charrbq]

In a rare moment of time, I agree with Andy. Of course, I've been sick for quite a while, so it may be the medication. But his groupings make some sense.

I fully understand the need to get as many entry fees as possible. But, it has always been my understanding that Atlanta Region took over an "IT championship" when the SCCA national office dropped the program after the '93 IT Festival. Since then, it has included a Corvette challenge, an ARCA challenge, Fast Plastic, and Winged Things. Now we cater to almost any Miata that replaces the IT with an S. The ARRC has morphed from IT to just anything regional that used to be legal in the GCR. What's next...AP, CM, Shelby Can Am?

I'll admit that the incredibly small groups of open wheeled and sports racers do serve to clear the pallet for the majority of entrants and spectators. However, when we start combining groups from the majority of entrants to accomodate smaller groups of "special" cars, don't we "cut off our nose to spite our face"? Now, there's another special interest group added to the mix in the form a SM.

I'm wondering how the region is going to prevent entrants to the Runoffs from entering the ARRC. If I owned more than one SM (as do many), could I run one at Topeka and the other at Atlanta. If I wasn't the entrant, but only the driver, could I enter the ARRC? or vice-versa? Cheese Louise, registration will be so much fun.

I noticed that the numbers from each of the IT races were used to develop the groups, but no numbers were given for the opened wheel and sports racer groups. If more time is needed to run the proper class IT championship, why do we run a group (in two races) that has such a small subscription?

Those of us in ITB and ITC understand the need to combine our groups as they aren't that well subscribed. Most of us don't like it, but we understand it. All we ask for is a split start to eliminate the fiasco of last year when so many cars were taken out on the first lap. I've been promised that we will get that this year.
But to put the two largest IT classes together in the interest of expediting the event to accomodate some more specialized entries isn't the smartest thing I've heard. I mean no offense to those who make out the schedule. They do the best with what they have to work with.

Can't we return this to a true IT championship instead of diluting it to just another regional weekend? I like running Road Atlanta, but a true IT championship at Mid Ohio sounds pretty cool, too.

[lateapex911]

As an IT7 driver, I won't bother making the trip this year if the run groups hold as currently set.

Good points by all those posting above me.

Andy's solution makes the most sense. The ITS cars should be able to get by backmarker Miatas in many places, and if the backmarkers show courtesy, it will be even easier.

ITA and ITS???? I wouldn't bother coming down if I was in either class.

There has been talk of reinventing the IT festival, as Andy mentioned, to make it more central, and if this grouping is chosen, I am sure that the ARRCs will become a good regional race, as people just won't spend two days towing to run in the usual Regional groupings.

Remember the first rule in biz....only piss off your existing clients if you are SURE you can replace them with more and spendier clients......

[charrbq]

If the SSM and SM classes are run with the ITB and ITC classes it will accomplish one thing...eliminate the two IT classes. We have to run with them at almost every race we run, and, frankly, it sucks! That has been one major factor in the reduction of entrants in those classes. Even though the lap times are similar, the cars are vastly different in performance.

Combining them will only serve to lower the status of the ARRC to just another regional race.

[R2 Racing]

PS: Greg how is it possible that running with ITS will give you an advantage? That doesn't make sence with me...[/b]

In the world of ITA cars, Greg is king when it comes to power and torque. So for example, if the lead pack in ITA gets held up through 6 and 7, Greg will be first into 10a.

Raymond - remember that I also use to race ITC for three years, and still do on occasion. So I know what its like to be the slowest class on the track, everytime I raced. With that in mind, I can honestly say that my issue is not "that ITA drivers whome want to win the overall race might not look like such a star". I've raced in ITB/ITC groups and they work relatively well. I've also raced in ITA/ITS groups and they don't.

Butch - thank you for listening to our issues. I personally will be running in ITA and have no problem racing with IT7. But that being said, I can understand the ITB drivers not wanting to race with ITS. But either way, I don't think the problem is in what classes to group together, but as to why we're having to group these classes together. Are there more regional only classes that we need to squeeze into our regional only classes championship weekend? No, in fact there's less. So where's the issue? The issue is in the "other commitments". I guess I just don't understand why everyone in ITC, ITB, ITA, and ITS needs to compromise their championship races so that other classes can just have more, none championship events, to run in. That just doesn't sound fair to me.

[Greg Amy]

Greg how is it possible that running with ITS will give you an advantage? That doesn't make sence with me...[/b]

...we now stratagize our race based on using...ITS drivers as picks.[/b]

That's why. Our class is balanced on a razor's edge, with cars like the Miata and CRX having the advantage in the corners and cars like the NX and Integra having the advantage on the straights. Versus the Integra my NX has superior torque with the Integra having a better suspension, thus needing to keep their speed up through the corners. If you toss in a lot of similar-speed top-10 ITS traffic that is very fast on the straights but balks the leading ITA cars in the corners (I finished 12th in ITS in 2003 and I'm much faster now) it becomes a competition of who has the most grunt out of the corners; all of these other cars are toast.

Having your races decided by cars not within your class is not racing. If you think that's the case, then why have four IT classes; let's lump everybody into one pot and call it simply "Improved Touring"! If I were in ITB I would MUCH rather run with the ITS guys so the speed disparity is more significant and conflicts are minimized; for the same reasons if I were in ITC I'd much rather run with ITA. Screw the loss of a lap, that's a much lower price to pay.

And, I see no value in being able to tell folks that I raced and beat 3/4 of the ITS cars in an ITA car, and I really don't give a rats rass about not crossing the checkered first...except in class. - GA

[Phat-S]

Originally posted by Kevin

Butch - thank you for listening to our issues. ... But either way, I don't think the problem is in what classes to group together, but as to why we're having to group these classes together. Are there more regional only classes that we need to squeeze into our regional only classes championship weekend? No, in fact there's less. So where's the issue? The issue is in the "other coimmitments". I guess I just don't understand why everyone in ITC, ITB, ITA, and ITS needs to compromise their championship races so that other classes can just have more, none championship events, to run in. That just doesn't sound fair to me.

I'd like to echo Kevin's comments - both the complimentary to your effort and the questioning of the need to comprimise IT's championship. After missing the last two ARRCs, I was hoping to quietly participate this year but I think for me, and folks like me, to run an ITA CRX in an ITS race is really not much different than any regional race weekend. And considering the cost and time for the ARRC, the regional makes more financial sense.

Hope this doesn't sound artificially negative. I do understand the constraints but I wanted to point out that for some folks, something like this may be the difference of going or not.

At the end of the day, this is the ARRC, I feel it really should be something that stands apart from anything else we can play in from an IT perspective during the year.

[RSTPerformance]

That's why. Our class is balanced on a razor's edge, with cars like the Miata and CRX having the advantage in the corners and cars like the NX and Integra having the advantage on the straights. Versus the Integra my NX has superior torque with the Integra having a better suspension, thus needing to keep their speed up through the corners. If you toss in a lot of similar-speed top-10 ITS traffic that is very fast on the straights but balks the leading ITA cars in the corners (I finished 12th in ITS in 2003 and I'm much faster now) it becomes a competition of who has the most grunt out of the corners; all of these other cars are toast.

Having your races decided by cars not within your class is not racing. If you think that's the case, then why have four IT classes; let's lump everybody into one pot and call it simply "Improved Touring"! If I were in ITB I would MUCH rather run with the ITS guys so the speed disparity is more significant and conflicts are minimized; for the same reasons if I were in ITC I'd much rather run with ITA. Screw the loss of a lap, that's a much lower price to pay.
[/b]

Greg-
Well, I see your point and completely understand and your example is great, but.... I guess I have even a better advantage than you as the Audi's have a lot of grunt compaired to any other car than a volvo in ITB. We loose it in the turns and in braking, so I guess we should want to run with ITS, but honestly, you need to experience it, if you think it is bad with ITS/ITA cars try being a "B" car and gaining 5-7 car lengths in a turn catch a car at apex and still not have a chance to cary enough speed to make a pass as the HP between classes is so different.

Glad to see not wanting to run for first in mid pack is not an issue, I appologize if I went a little overboard with that comment... I to enjoy finishing in the to 5 or 10 overall with an ITB car in an ITB/ITS field!!!


Kevin- thank you for thinking clearly and telling us the true issue:

I don't think the problem is in what classes to group together, but as to why we're having to group these classes together. Are there more regional only classes that we need to squeeze into our regional only classes championship weekend? No, in fact there's less. So where's the issue? The issue is in the "other coimmitments".

Raymond

[charrbq]

Greg,
I don't totally disagree with you about the cost of racing being the loss of only one lap, but I don't agree with the idea either.
In ITC, I have to keep an eye in the mirror for the faster IT classes lapping me by halfway in the race as it is. Do I need to have that problem in a race of such importance as the ARRC? I don't want to be a pick (as I have in the past) for a couple of faster classed cars that are in a race for position. Why shouldn't I have the opportunity to compete in the same length race as the other classes? If I know going in that, no matter how fast I run in my little Honda, I'll only get to run 19 rather than 20 laps. If so, then I should (following that process) get a 5% discount at registration.
The problem, as Kevin better wrote than I, is the other commitments. I wonder sometimes if the inspiration behind the ARRC is the same as it once was. If the IT entries shrink further, will the Miata's, plastic cars, and big thunder cars pick up the slack?

[itracer]

As an ITB driver, I would rather run with ITC. We are fast (or slow depending how you look at it) in the same places. As a mid-pack ITB person I catch the slow ITS cars. Their driving style in the corners is not always conducive to passing them safely. They zip away when they are pointed straight and I catch them in the corner, but again cannot get by. An ITC car is going to have similar abilities and challenges and therefore makes for safer racing passes. I would not mind running with ITA since, in my mind it is similar to the ITC/ITB combo.

I do not think that I will be going to the ARRC in my car, but I have not ruled it out. I am missing the two biggest NER races this year (Pig Roast and Cheap Date), so I might be inclined to feed my habit elsewhere (ARRC?). But if we (IT were moved into a class with ITS, I would not make the tow down.

[m glassburner]

I know I might be sounding a little like captian obvious.... but if the car counts are up they would be "forced"
to give everyone a seperate run group....I know I'ts a pipe dream....hell,I would even help(money) to get
more cars to show up for ITB...mdg...#19 omni.

[RSTPerformance]

I know I might be sounding a little like captian obvious.... but if the car counts are up they would be "forced"
to give everyone a seperate run group....I know I'ts a pipe dream....hell,I would even help(money) to get
more cars to show up for ITB...mdg...#19 omni.
[/b]

Want to ensure we go no matter what class we run with... feel free to send $$$ or on a more seriose note offer a tow fund

Raymond

[R2 Racing]

Wow, I posted something on a internet message board and not only did no one argue against me, but they actually agreed with me! Damn, that hasn't happened in weeks!


The talk of a centrally located mid-season "IT Festival" started almost immediately after last years ARRC. I talked back then about trying to organize something like that at Mid Ohio, but the only problem with that idea actually replacing the ARRC is that at a track like Mid Ohio, you'd pretty much have to have it by the end of September to ensure any good shot at nice weather. But, if there was some serious interest in it, my home region (Ohio Valley) already has the second weekend of September every year and IT's very own Matt Downing is one of the "head cheeses" around here. We also both enjoy talking and drinking beer.

I'm not at all implying that right at this moment I want to take something like that away from Road Atlanta. Not at all! But, if they take away the make up of a "regional class only championship" themselves, the kids will find a new sandbox.

[svt38]

[quote]


How about this (and I need to hear from the ITB and ITC guys as well)?

ASM & ITC
ITA & IT7
ITS & ITB


We in ITC have run with ITB the last five years that I have been going to the ARRC. In 2001, I think it was, we had enough entries to have our own group. I know that will not happen again any time soon.

Having us grouped with ITB has been working great, specially when we were granted split starts. Some of the best racing I have been involved in.

I'm against grouping us with SM. If you look at the SARRC entries over the last couple of years, you'll see that the ITC entries are very low when grouped with SM. Increased when not.

Hopefully you keep us with ITB with a split start.

Vesa Silegren
ITC SEDIV

[IPRESS]

Butch,
You guys have a tough job trying to make racers happy. Whatever you folks decide I am sure plenty of folks will come race. It is great to have leaders willing to listen to the voices of their followers. As with any forum you are getting the opinons here of a vocal few. These few probably have some good ideas. I hope you come up with a nice compromise.

I would hope that when making the schedule that ASM's run group & ITA's run group would be seperated enough so that one car could run in both races. One thing that usually gets me to tow 16 hours is being able to split costs and share a car with another racer. (I know some of the Atlanta guys do this sometimes.) Since we share the enduro it gives two people and one car plenty of racing. If that doesn't work out I WILL still come as ARRC is my favorite race.

I also wanted to address the "blame it on SM" sentiment that seems to rear it's ugly head when SMs are involved in scheduling. Having been in one of the first two SMs run at RAtlanta way back when, I have seen and been there when SM was the stepchild. Even with it's many warts today, it is a great racing success story. Many people who would never road race have been drawn to the sport by the appeal of the class. (I realize some of them we could have done without ) As a past region BOD member, I can vouch for the good side of SM when it comes to beefing up entries. I am not advocating messing up other classes race groups to accomodate SM, but it does make since to try and have a big car count. There is a happy (or half happy) medium somewhere. Before you think I am just taking the SM side, let me say that my plans for 07 are to run ITA exclusively and prep my car for ITA only. (I always liked running with different type cars.)
So good luck to Butch and all the Atlanta officals in solving this puzzle.

Mac

[zracre]

I have a SM and an ITA car...I love the cars (Miatas) but there has to be a limit to how far an event organizer will go to accomodate them...ASM SSM SPx and why should other classes suffer? The Miatas even have their own Miata Madness race! Keep the old format

[charrbq]

Here's an idea. Race the Miata's across the road at Lanier circle track. For extra interest, they might add a cross over in the middle. I'd pay to watch...as long as I could bring in my own beer and barbeque. Shoot, I'd even buy some from the track for that kind of entertainment.

[Greg Amy]

Hell, I'd buy a Miata to race just for that!!

Yeah, it's off-topic, but back when the Runoffs were at Road Atlanta the Lanier Speedway used to have a feature race on Saturday night just for the Showroom Stock cars. We usually ran our Runoffs race on Friday (the better to get through Tech before Beer Sunday) and we'd show up at Lanier for a bit of funSaturday night.

I think the roundy-round crowd loved seeing "street cars" going after each other in the bull ring; we sure had fun! - GA

[zracre]

yea baby! we should call Lanier and see if they want to do something like that for us! They usually dont have anything going on that time of year it seems...

[OTLimit]

The only thing that I DON'T want to see is an ITB/ITC unsplit start again. Granted, Chris had qualifying issues with his car last year (seems it only wanted to qualify and race for $$), but having to weed his way through the ITC cars was just a crock. The fact that he went from 21st to 5th was amazing.

[R2 Racing]

A figure 8 Spec Miata race - seriously, I'd drive all the way from Ohio just to watch that!