What is "Entry Level"?

[Greg Amy]

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...opic=8722&st=80

In the topic above, the idea of Improved Touring as an "entry level" class was raised and debated. In your opinion, what does that term mean? Can you quantify what "entry level" means? List some factors that would make a particular class/category an entry level racing class; does ITx meet that definition? Do any other classes or categories? Why or why not? It would be particularly interesting to hear opinnions from newer folks, as opposed to the Old Established Guard.

Discuss.

[JeffYoung]

Entry level means I can bolt some parts on a car at a cost of less than X dollars and go race. It does not mean I will be competitive. It does not mean my car will be reliable.

So, I guess the real nitty gritty question is, what is the "X" dollar level? Is it $3k? $5k? $10k?

[Molez93]

Entry level =
- About $5k (or less) to get started
- Modest mechanical ability required for routine issues
- Readily available donor cars
- Ability to have fun on the track as a noobie

Near as I can tell ITA, ITB, and ITC all fit that description as long as there is no expectation of being competitive in ITA (or maybe even IT if you spend ~$5,000. ITS seems too expensive to be entry level.

I'm coming up on ~12 months since I formally started this whole "It's time to start racing for real" thing. And the absolute *best* piece of advice would have been to buy someone else's car at the VERY beginning. After starting with a 75% ready for ITA CRX (former Solo2 and HPDE vehicle), I still don't have a finished race car. A ton of circumstances changed along the way and I let other Summer fun replace the proposed 2006 racing schedule when the car didn't come together as planned.

My car build issues asside, who is going to spend more than $5K (or $10K if you're loaded ;-) to get started if you haven't been racing already? As a result, I don't see how any other class (SSx, Tx, or any other) could be "entry level."

Just my $0.02
-Scott M. eventual ITA CRX racer
One school at WGI and one at LRP
Lots &#39;o CRX parts <g>

[RacerBill]

&#39;Entry Level&#39; classes - IMHO

First let&#39;s define entry level. My definition is a class that a person new to driving race cars can start out in quickly, easily, and with minimum expense. We are not talking about a megabuck effort here, complete with motor coach and semi transporter, drive it to the track, tow dolly, or open trailer and a beater van or pickup.
Are you going to win? Probably not. But if your attitude is right, you can have a blast!

What makes a class entry level?

Preparation - Cost - Availability of cars

Preparation - Generally speaking Showroom Stock is/used to be the ultimate class as far as preparation goes. Maybe not always the lowest cost, but potentially the least effort.

Cost - IT probably has an advantage here because cars are generally older than Showroom Stock. Of course the scales can be tipped the other way because more modifications are allowed.

Availability of cars - Here again, I think that IT beats Showroom Stock since SS cars have a finite life.

I know that at times, you can find bargains in some of the other classes, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Entry level is going to mean different things to different people. And there are those who are going to have the bucks to start off at a higher level than others. But even then, unless you roll your car up into a little ball, the total cost of ownership through your use of a car should be lower in IT (by limiting the mods you do) because of the market for prepared cars.

OK, someone elses turn!

Well. Jeff and Scott got in there ahead of my. But yes, overall I agree with their remarks as well. Ones experience with putting your toes in the water will depend on attiude, circumstances and expectations. I could not afford the outlay associated with buying a prepared car, so I found the best deal I could. But that was my decision. I spent years taking every nut, bolt, screw, whatever off that car, and going over it as best I could.

Taking my time has allowed me to get some great deals - set of Kumho&#39;s with wheels - $175, spare engine, trans, shift linkage, - $100 delivered to my garage!, two sets of original Shelby wheels - $150.

I have been in four races, had three DNF&#39;s (two as a result of bad shift kinkage, one for fuel problems), but as the car gets sorted out, it&#39;s getting better. At least the car drives back onto the trailer and off again into the garage, which is better than some. But I am having a ball. Every race, the packing, setup etc. is getting more fun. My family is having a blast, as well. But it is all attitude - if it wasn&#39;t difficult and a challange, it would not be worth it.

[zracre]

Entry level=$2500-$5000. A good donor 90-93 Integra is $500-$2000 add safety gear and you are in the ballpark. The benefit of the teg is cheap entry level parts and a motor that is capable of running close to the front with basic bolt ons. A Miata is more of the same but a built motor is needed for competitiveness...same for the CRX. vdubs can do it in ITB cheap. Any Civic in ITC same. BMW&#39;s can be raced but parts more expensive. OB&#39;s Saturn ran close to the front (good driver) with a stock motor but hipo stuff is harder to come by and custom is in order as is the NX2000 MX3 ($$$) etc. If formula cars are your flavor, F500 is about as cheap as it gets. I&#39;m sure I left cars out but thats about the price to get in the door...just remember there will be far more invested in tires brake pads gas beer hotels beer food beer and entry fees than whats in an entry level car for the first year. Oh and bribing people to come help (see beer). If one needs tires and pads/rotors for a race and it is a long tow with hotels one could spend almost as much for the race weekend as they did for the cost of the car...racing=not cheap

[handfulz28]

"Entry level" to me implies a narrow ruleset, possibly controlled environment, possible low barriers to entry..."easy" for a beginner to participate and within a short time be competitive and successful. I&#39;m not sure if costs/expenses should be part of that or not.
Solo II is entry level, perhaps Solo I if there&#39;s course mods to limit top speed.

I would say there&#39;s no such thing as "entry level" door to door racing. There may be venues/classes that are "relatively" easier/cheaper to get a car on track, but that&#39;s mostly a cost factor and little else. From that perspective, SS/Touring/IT are probably the "easiest" in terms of converting a street car to a "track" car. For most cars in those classes, all that&#39;s "required" are safety mods: cage, belts, fire ext, !airbags, and in IT disabling ABS.

[rsx858]

I would define entry level as a class that is appealing to new racers becasue of relative low financial requirments as well as limited requirments in car preperation to participate and be somewhat competitive. Being competitive with little financial investment rarely seems to be the case in racing with the exception of a few classes where competitve cars can be purchased fairly cheap. These are the classes that i feel are true entry level becasue someone with a limited budget and or limited mechanical skill can get out on the track, have fun, and even visit the podium.

Some may argue that all IT classes are entry, and i do believe that IT is a fantastic place to begin racing, but i have trouble saying that a class such as ITR qualifies as entry level. To me there are three determinants of entry level: financial investment, level/difficulty of car preperation, and speed potential. looking at each class from ITC to ITR you see a steady increase in these determinants.

Though i define "entry level" as being conservative in these three factors, there may be circumstances where a driver does not consider money to be an issue or perhaps is a mechanical master. in such cases the right entry class may be somthing like a slower production class where the speeds arent necessarly the greatest, but the levels of preperation are high. In short, we can generaly define entry level as cheap and easy, but each person must consider his/her own financial position, mechanical ability, and skill behind the wheel to determine the right starting point.

[Andy Bettencourt]

"Entry level" in my book is defined by ease of entry. IT IMHO as a CATEGORY is the best EL class because it is the cheapest category to legally put a car on track. Donor cars can be VERY cheap in any class (sans ITR), and you can build your car at any pace after the safety equipment is in. Prep required is VERY modest compared to other classes which let you build slow...

[JeffYoung]

Agreed Andy, but back to dollars. Almost all "ease of entry" (other than car availability) can be reduced to $$$.

[Z3_GoCar]

I keep hearing that everyone thinks that ITR is not an entry level class. If you&#39;ve got a &#39;93 325 street car with a welded in cage kit in it and a fire extinguisher, you&#39;ve got an ITR car. If you&#39;ve not stripped the interior or taken out the carpet or head liner, if you&#39;ve basically got a street car with a cage. Wouldn&#39;t that be entry level? In another thread Greg you said all of IT is entry level.... I think that cost of the donner car shouldn&#39;t factor too much into considering if a class is entry level. If you run what you&#39;ve got, and are planning on building it up eventually to the limit of the rules, but you&#39;re just starting out, isn&#39;t that entry level?

[zracre]

Entry level is determined by....the person entering. Entry level budget for a Mechanic wanting to race is different than the 7 figure executive. or the small business owner. or the 711 employee. Everyone is different and have different life obligations and skill levels. there is no way to put a real value on it or car type. All cars have hurdles some big some small.

[gran racing]

Show me one car out there that has done nothing but &#39;bolt on a few (safety) pieces and raced&#39;. Name one person whose entire goal for going racing is to simply show up and not worry about being competitive.[/b]

O.k. Greg. Let&#39;s take a walk on Saturday.

And not being competitive - depends on how you define "competitive". When I raced in ITA, I was very competitive. Front runner? No way. If you think there weren&#39;t the usual guys who I really, really wanted to beat and we were all fighting hard to "win", you&#39;re wrong. When you really think about it, it isn&#39;t so different than racing for the "real" win. I will tell you that some of my favorite races were against Jake Fisher (and others) fighting for 15th place.

What I&#39;m saying is, "it may appear that you can just bolt on a few items and go racing, but in the end it just ain&#39;t that simple."[/b]

It also ain&#39;t that difficult.

Entry level racing – A place where the average Joe can get into the sport without having to spend a fortune and overcome numerous obstacles that are unnecessary. It also should be what Andy said in the ITR thread:

To me, the entry level part of IT is that you can build up your car slow. You can progress as a driver along with the progression of your car.[/b]

I think it is so cool that people can buy a safe and decent racecar (not a front running car) for around $3,000. Jon just bought his car that is ready to go racing with a log book, two sets of rims, 2 spare engines, spare tranny, race suspension, the motor’s head is built, nice paint for $2,800. Now that’s awesome!

The problem with ITR isn&#39;t necessarily the initial cost, but the ongoing costs. Typically the faster you go, the more expensive it becomes. The other issue is replacement and repair costs. If I need a new (stock) engine for my car, I can get one for ~$500. That can&#39;t be said for most of the ITR (and many ITS) cars.

[Doc Bro]

For me entry level had to meet certain criteria.

1. Could find a repair manual for the car so I could wrench myself. (That&#39;s why I ruled out open wheel, and NASCAR style cars, which I was strongly considering.)

2. Could find a mechanic who would work on car after I burned the repair manual out of frustration.

3. Could develop the car and the driver at the same pace without having to switch classes.

4. Most importantly... I had people to RACE with regardless of my prep and ability level...I could still RACE!!

5. Could race a car that I liked...something you could explain to others to gain their interest and potentially something they too may be interested in trying. I didn&#39;t really feel like having racing conversations go like:

"...yea, we are racing this weekend"
&#39;oh, really, what do you race?&#39;
" it&#39;a RALT Dx 783.89 AF"
&#39;OOOOH,.......so..what about those Red Sox?&#39;

R

[DavidM]

I probably still qualify as a newb - season and a half with 8 or so races - so I&#39;ll chime in. I think "entry level" is somewhat of a misnomer as I think any class can be entry level, but I think there are some things that make some classes more attractive to beginners than others.

Cost: I think this is greatly determined by a person&#39;s financial status, but in general I don&#39;t think a beginner is going to want to spend $30k on a race car. People very well off may do so, but most people won&#39;t. I don&#39;t think you can put an exact dollar figure on it, but each person is going to have a limit. I was willing to spend $10-15k to get a well prepped car. A lot of people may have smaller budgets, some may have bigger.

Prep-level/Car modification: Classes that limit what you can do to the car are more beginner friendly. I had no desire to have to take care of some highly modified motor or take apart the transmission to mess with gear ratios every race.

Ease of maintenance/durability: I&#39;m figuring most people getting into racing are doing their own work. This is probably directly related to prep-level, but cars that don&#39;t need lots of work and don&#39;t break are good for beginners. Having to rebuild some part of the car between every race was not what I wanted. I didn&#39;t want to have to be fixing something at the track everytime either.

Speed: I don&#39;t think most beginners will want to be in a high-speed class. I think the radicals in DSR are cool, but I&#39;d probably wind up in a wall if I tried to drive one right now.

Number of cars in the class: I think most beginners would like to be in a class that has a decent number of cars. Racing somebody is fun. Driving around by yourself, while still racing, is not as fun.

Classes that I think appeal to beginners are SM, IT, and SS. I&#39;m talking about people looking for cars with doors and roofs (mostly). People wanting open-wheel or open cockpit (i.e. SRF) probably already have a specific class in mind.

In my case, I wound up in ITA in a 240SX. I knew that I wanted to race a production car that was rear wheel drive. ITS was a little faster than I wanted and I don&#39;t really like Miatas (may have something to do with the fact that I can&#39;t fit in one) or doing body work. That pretty much left ITA. I&#39;m familiar with Nissans and Bob happened to put his car up for sale about the time I was getting serious about racing. There ya go.

David

[Knestis]

Interesting ideas but don&#39;t most of them apply in other classes as well?

** I could buy a serviceable Legends car for $6-8K and run NASA road races AND local short tracks, including televised events from Lowes.

** I could finance a used Acura RSX and put the same kind of safety equipment that IT requires into it, for substantially LESS $$ than it would take to build even the most basic bolt-on IT car

** How about a Formula Vee? Cheap-o-rama.

** There aren&#39;t as many of them out there as there are IT cars, but I&#39;ve seen enough $3000 Production-legal cars with logbooks and current safety equipment to know that&#39;s a possibility.

Tempted to argue that there are plenty of reasons why some or all of the above choices represent bad values, or just dumb decisions? Apply those same questions to IT versions of the same...

K

[lateapex911]

I should probably keep my mouth shut, as I am an OEG, but....

The best "Entry level racing" is.... (drum roll, please)

NASA&#39;s PT category. Because it is flexible enough to be many things to many people. I do doubt though, if it can satisfy the true racer, as the system that classes cars is full of inconsitencies, and it&#39;s impossible to police. That said, it&#39;s barriers to entry are probably the least. Flexible standards, race what you&#39;ve got.

Second has to be SCCA IT. I think IT caters to a very wide demographic. There are &#39;subsets&#39; within IT that aknowledge that they can&#39;t run at the front, but are still racing hard for their respective place. Guys like Dave Gran and Jake Fisher who felt that their cars, no matter the development, could never be front runners, coined the term "ITA Lite", LOL. And the RX-7 guys felt the same way, and came up with the coveted "RX7 Cup", a perpetual trophy given to the fastest ITA RX-7. Then there are tons of guys that choose IT to race because they can get on the track with a cage and some brake pads and be racing. I know a guy like that...me!

To this day, my first season, in my woefully underprepped car, is my favorite. Drove it to every race and finished as high as 5th at the first IT "Mini Stock Challenge" at Lime Rock to support the Busch race. To me, that was as good as a win.

Here&#39;s a category you can find great competition at many levels in, has an allowance that you can be racing with minimal mods, and has plenty of donor cars that are very inexpensive.

SS or Touring is MUCH more difficult to call "entry level". New cars are hugely expensive, and one mistake/wreck can throw $25,000 away. Not a comforting thought to an entry level guy. Used SS cars are cheaper, but come with the caveat that their "lifespan" is used up. IT cars can go a long time.

Open wheel has limited "entry level" appeal, because of the increased danger with the open wheels, whether thats actual or perceived.

So, for low financial cost of entry, low finaincial risk, deep fields that give a newbie a chance to actually race against someone, low mechanical mods required, and lots of car choices, IT is hard to beat.

Finally, the "Entry level" racer often looks to grow, and looks for a category with room to grow into. IT fits that bill as well.

[Racerlinn]

I&#39;m with David. I&#39;m definately entry-level and a season and a half into my race career. Took a car I knew well (bought off the showroom floor) and was already competing with (Solo and track days).
Very budget-concious build due to having a real life (ie wife,kids,mortgage) so all my money was spent on safety equipment rather than new suspension, motor, etc. I&#39;m certainly a middle of the pack racer because of it, but some of us in the middle of the pack are sure having fun burning the tires of these cars!
Of course when people ask what I race and I say "Sentra", they usually reply with "how &#39;bout them Cubs?"
I think for "normal" people living "normal" lives, IT is certainly a great place to start for those looking to race a sedan they can afford.

Edit: and another big concern for "entry level": I can financially walk away from the car if I ball it up. This is the next thing I have to tell people when they ask why I don&#39;t race a Corvette or Porsche - that is if they don&#39;t ask about the Cubs instead.

[gsbaker]

Entry Level is something low risk in terms of time, effort and money, so one can get on the track with a minimum investment of each. That way the new driver can give it a shot and have some fun but back out easily if, for some reason, they feel it&#39;s not for them.

In this regard Jake makes a good point (You make good points in most all regards, Jake ) with the reference to the NASA class, i.e. a thin rule book lowers the effort portion of the investment so anything simple is necessarily attractive to the noobie.

I think any class that allows a safe, minimum-prep car qualifies as EL. If someone has a spare Ferrari back in the barn, hey, so be it.

[tom_sprecher]

Hello, my name is Tom and I am a newbie. Rest of the support group, “Hello, Tom”

There have been many good comments on the attributes that constitute an "entry level" class. For many it appears that cost is a concern as it was for me. I did not want to make a large financial commitment only to find out that racing was not for me.

Others have mentioned the easy of maintenance and durability. Although somewhat of a concern this did not come into play as, with some exceptions, I have found that racing beats the hell out of anything involved with it. We are pushing everything to the limit or should be. This in turn requires vigilant maintenance in order to provide a reasonable level of reliability no matter what you race.

As far as level of preparation or modifications I have found that the more "stock" a car is required to be in racing trim the more difficult it is to prepare/modify. In my point of view there is just less “stuff” to get in the way. I find working on purpose built race cars much easier for that very reason. Especially Formula cars.

The biggest factor for determining an “entry level” class is that it allows the new driver to develop his on-track racing skills at a reasonable rate just as an entry level job does much the same. The class should, as best it can, allow learning the necessary skill set without causing bodily harm or expensive vehicle damage to him or fellow racers. Either one is a buzz kill and inconvenience at the least and financial disaster or death at the worst. Entry level is not about learning during the first time in a race car how to roll on 400HP in T12 at Road Atlanta. As much as I wanted to, this was the biggest reason that kept me from starting off with a Formula, GT or SPO car.

Well, that and the money.

[JimLill]

maybe I am the "newest"bie...

bought a well used turn-key ITB car that I could take to track for $2500, what could be easier. Slowly fed in bux to make it mine own.... 1 race under my belt. Enjoy having a car that I can make a few changes to yet afford.... thus, it is at least "my" entry level.