ITR Competition

[Z3_GoCar]

I agree Kirk,

It should be something like:

"ABS may be used if it remains unmodifyed from the factory; however, disconnecting or removal is allowed and encouraged. Removal of of all components associated with the ABS system is permitted."

And forget about a weight penelty. I suspect that most of the guys running ABS will be newbie's with barely modifyed cars just getting started. One guy at my Super School had a car with a cage, classed in ITS. He'd just caged it, I doubt he'd removed any ABS parts. His would have been an old-school style IT car with the head liner and everything. So we really want to chase these guys away now that ABS is so universal that even Hundai's come with it standard?

James

[Fastfred92]

Back to the Mustang for a moment, 1) Do all the 99-04 V6 cars have ABS standard and 2)have you guys ever noticed where the plastic fuel tank is located on these cars???

[Eagle7]

Yep, you were sleeping. :-)

They've been open as long as I've been involved with IT, not long, since about 2004. I think it had just passed a little before then or around that time.

And you can collect data from the ECU - the high end data acquistion systems do just that, but I was wrong about the wheel sensors and collecting from them.

Ron
[/b]

Um, as someone noted, "open" in this case means using an unmodified stock harness and only modifying the internal parts of a stock ECU case.

Since it also prohibits the connection of an external "computer" etc. to the ECU, how does that data get "acquired"?

I think an example of what I think you can't do would be helpful. I've got an aftermarket ECU in my car. It has a computer connector that does not protrude though the stock ECU case (so I have to open the case to connect a computer). I've also got an aftermarket wideband O2 sensor air/fuel ratio gauge that I connect to the ECU (also through the open case) for tuning - it's only used for logging, not for closed-loop control. I'd love to leave that WBO2 connected to the ECU and log the ECU data from my sessions to a Palm Pilot or computer, but don't see how it could be legal.

[Ron Earp]

Um, as someone noted, "open" in this case means using an unmodified stock harness and only modifying the internal parts of a stock ECU case.

Since it also prohibits the connection of an external "computer" etc. to the ECU, how does that data get "acquired"?
but don't see how it could be legal.
[/b]

Well, not sure since I've not done it. But, SM drivers log lots of data (some really cool in car with every engine vital displayed in real time) and I assume they do it through the OBD port (whatever flavor since OBD wasn't a standard in those days) or OBD-II port. I know I get anything I want from my OBD-II port on my Lightning and it has been the same since 1999. Some of these cars will undoubtedly have a similar format. So, I imagine you can use your fancy GPS logger to pull data from the service port. Now, if you are using a stand alone ECU I suppose that won't work any more so not sure.

I'm aware that the stock box has to be used, but, there is plenty of room in most stock boxes for stand alone ECUs. A MegaSquirt can be quite small, and, MoTecs are small when taken out of their case, as is the Wolf unit.

All things to be overcome by the determined racer I suppose.

R

[dickita15]

With the types of cars we're talking about here in the proposed ITR (look at the cars listed; show me an entry-level "economy" car) we're WAY beyond the concept of low-budget entry-level stuff...
[/b]

Greg as Jake said I am talking about allof IT and not just ITR, but even in ITR we will see people who are SCCA racing for the first time. One of the discussion points with ITR is these are the cars running track days now, lets give them a place to race.
I do think that replumbing the entire brake system is a barrier to a novice thinking about SCCA racing.

[JeffYoung]

Hell, I can do it, and I'm an idiot (replumb the braking system).

I do agree that dealing with the sensors and the ecu could be an issue. And Kirk's point (and Dick's) about finding a way to allow ABS in IT is worth considering.

But I do think it is a huge can of worms we don't want to touch. Replumbing brake lines and removing sensors, and using an aftermarket ECU is no harder than 99% of what we do these cars anyway. If you don't want to do that type of work, select a car that has an easily removable ABS system.

[mlytle]

Hell, I can do it, and I'm an idiot (replumb the braking system).

But I do think it is a huge can of worms we don't want to touch. Replumbing brake lines and removing sensors, and using an aftermarket ECU is no harder than 99% of what we do these cars anyway. If you don't want to do that type of work, select a car that has an easily removable ABS system.
[/b]

ditto. i am an idiot and i have sucessfully plumbed around the abs pump. you do not have to "replumb the entire system"!!!! this ain't rocket science.

whatever it's original intent, improved touring is way beyond "entry level". if someone wants entry level, then srx7 or sm is what they are looking for. if the concept of doing basic brake work is a barrier to someone entering it, then they need to find a different hobby...of get a better job and pay someone to do the car prep work.

[dickita15]

whatever it's original intent, improved touring is way beyond "entry level". if someone wants entry level, then srx7 or sm is what they are looking for. if the concept of doing basic brake work is a barrier to someone entering it, then they need to find a different hobby...of get a better job and pay someone to do the car prep work.
[/b]

Wow I can’t believe you actually want that statement to come of as arrogant as it sounds. Maybe the air is a little thin at the front of the grid but if course IT is entry level and not everyone who tries IT racing is doing a $20,000 development effort. By the way SRx7 is only a class in a small part of the country. Are you saying everyone should start in Miata before they drive a “real” racecar?

In order to grow SCCA and IT racing we need to allow drivers to ease into this sport as much as possible. I have no problem with making it so there is a penalty that would prevent ABS cars from being at the front of the grid. New people are not expecting to win. There are tons of cars doing track days and Marque club event that are nervous about wheel to wheel racing and this attitude just makes us more intimidating.

Go back and read Dave Gran’s book and try to get into the mindset of a new person and then tell me redoing you brake system is no big deal.

[Greg Amy]

"Entry Level" implies to me that there's something specific about a class/category that makes it:

- cheaper,
- easier,
- and/or faster

...for someone with lesser experience to "get involved" as compared to all other classes, as opposed to "be competitive". That's not really the case with Improved Touring (any more?) Question: what makes IT moreso "entry level" than, say:

- Showroom Stock
- Spec Miata
- Touring
- Formula Vee
- Formula 500
- Formula Ford

Is there some other definition of "entry level" that makes IT stick out compared to the others? In actuality, the thing that seems to pigeon-hole the category into this entry level mindset is the fact that it's a Regional class; well, all the ones I listed above are also Regional classes too, just not "-only"...that, coupled to the fact that "this is the way it's always been".

For someone coming in with no preconceived notions, there's really nothing that makes IT stick out as more entry level than pretty much any other category; if you take out the "expense" part of it then ALL categories are "entry level" (yup, even Formula Continental and GT-1; there's nothing to keep a newbie from showing up at a school with a brandy new $100K formula car...). In point of fact, the classes that MLYTLE mentioned, Spec Miata especially, are far more attrtactive to the inexperienced driver in terms of minimum requirements to compete and ablity to have a competitive car.

ITR just pulls this even farther out of the mainstream ideals.

Note: not an intended slight of ITR in any way, simply a way of opening minds. We've stuck ourselves in this pigeon hole that doesn't really exist (any more?)

[dickita15]

Greg,
Entry level implies to me that it is a class that is likely to attract first time racers. What makes IT an entry level class is that a large number of people look at IT as a place to run the car they like or already own. IT is easy to get into relative to much other racing. I can take this car I like/own install safety equipment and a few performance upgrades and try this racing thing.

IT is not a class that one can bolt on a few parts and win but it is one where you can bolt on a few pieces and race. I am not suggesting that we should make it easy to win but there are lots of guys racing with no chance to win having fun and learning how to race. Without these guys we would have some pretty small grids.

As to the other classes you suggest, come on, first of all we are talking door slammers, so forget the formula classes. Touring and showroom stock are pretty new cars with a finite lifespan and no ability to modify. Most of the track day cars out there are already way beyond the prep allowed here. You are also limited to a pretty small choice of cars. So again do you think everyone should start in a freaking Miata?

You sound like a friggen prod driver. “If you don’t want to go thru the effort to build a real race car go race somewhere else.”

[gran racing]

I am not suggesting that we should make it easy to win but there are lots of guys racing with no chance to win having fun and learning how to race. [/b]

Exactly Dick!

Greg, it wasn't so long ago that you were racing in ITS and I was racing in ITA.

if the concept of doing basic brake work is a barrier to someone entering it, then they need to find a different hobby...of get a better job and pay someone to do the car prep work.[/b]

You're kidding, right? Maybe the process of replumbing an ABS system is simple and "basic brake work" but it doesn't sound so simple to me. I suppose I now need to find a different hobby.

I'm not saying that I don't have mixed feelings about allowing cars with ABS race, but looking long term it will be something that IT needs to take a close look at. And guys, don't forget that SCCA isn't the only game in town. People can already race many of these ITR cars with NASA and keep the ABS intact. "ABS systems maybe disabled, removed or relocated." One less barrier to entry people need to worry about.

[Greg Amy]

“If you don’t want to go thru the effort to build a real race car go race somewhere else.”[/b]

That's totally not what I'm saying, Dick. What I'm saying is, "it may appear that you can just bolt on a few items and go racing, but in the end it just ain't that simple."

Show me one car out there that has done nothing but 'bolt on a few (safety) pieces and raced'. Name one person whose entire goal for going racing is to simply show up and not worry about being competitive. If "entry-level" is defined by perception rather than reality, with that perception being "I just wanna go out there and not worry about racing" then fine, I agree with you; yet any class can be looked at that way. But if reality rules, as it usually does, then it's a terrible disservice to make new folks believe there is such a thing. C'mon and go race - absolutely! - but don't carry any preconceived notions of what's going to happen.

As for limited lifespans of cars, doesn't the term "entry level" imply it's nothing but a stepping stone to something else? If so, who cares about limited life span? No ability to modify? How is that any different than not modifying where you can? Hell, given that I'd consider it a BENEFIT for someone starting out to do so in a class that allows minimal mods.

No, I don't think "everyone should start in a freaking Miata", but when someone asks me which door-slammer class SCCA offers that requires a minimum of outlay to build a prepared car, reaonably robust, and has a reasonable chance of being competitive with a minimum of financial outlay, I suggest to them Spec Miata. (I also caution them to be prepared to do bodywork.) Throw in there the ability to race potentially three classes per weekend and Spec Miata is a damn tough value to beat for the newbie (or the oldie!).

The basic problem is that everyone has a different "reality" of what entry-level is. Ergo, there is no such thing as "entry level" within SCCA. Taken to its idiot opposite extreme SCCA Club Racing IS entry-level in every way imaginable.

Or it's not.

But to claim that Improved Touring is more or less "entry level" than any other SCCA class is, in my opinion, disingenuous. - GA

[zracre]

ok everytime a noob shows up at our silly little piece of the universe what do we tell them? Its cheaper to buy a car already built (and it always is) than it is to build your first race car. Get license and enjoy said car. When you have been in the neighborhood a while and see how things work build a car, change classes or do what ever you want...IT is entry level to people starting out as it is the most appealing financially (spec miata no more). It has relatively simple rules to get in to common cheap cars for most classes (if a noob goes straight to ITR then they can afford to pay someone to do stuff). now to win in IT is another story. It cost money and experience which can only be gained by doing time in the sport.
ABS can be disabled by pulling a fuse or a sensor or unplugging the abs ecu...or if it is a full time race car, replumb it. I have to agree with GA and Mlytle some of this stuff is not for entry level people in IT...but if you want to race and do it on a budget, race a cheap car to get time. an entry level one. not an SIR equipped ABS disabled BMW 325...maybe a used IT7 car/SM/ITA CRX/insert 5k-7.5k car here...or a 2.5k GTI as many have...

[Andy Bettencourt]

To me, the entry level part of IT is that you can build up your car slow. You can progress as a driver along with the progression of your car. In SM, your car has to be 100% built in order to comply with the rules. In SS or Touring you have to outlay big money to play as the cars are so new.
The rule set in IT is pretty cool too, once you look at the limitations of SM, SS and Touring and keep in mind what you need to do to have a competitive Prod or GT car.

[dickita15]

That's totally not what I'm saying, Dick. What I'm saying is, "it may appear that you can just bolt on a few items and go racing, but in the end it just ain't that simple."

Show me one car out there that has done nothing but 'bolt on a few (safety) pieces and raced'. Name one person whose entire goal for going racing is to simply show up and not worry about being competitive. If "entry-level" is defined by perception rather than reality, with that perception being "I just wanna go out there and not worry about racing" then fine, I agree with you; yet any class can be looked at that way. But if reality rules, as it usually does, then it's a terrible disservice to make new folks believe there is such a thing. C'mon and go race - absolutely! - but don't carry any preconceived notions of what's going to happen.
[/b]

Every drivers school I go to there are guys making the step from track days to racing in the same car. It really is that easy to go racing, take your track car put a couple of grand into safety equipment and get out there and learn to race. I can show you these guys Greg but they are way back on the grid with me. You only see them once a race. Ironically there seem to be even more of these guys in ITS than in ITA.

I am not saying this is there entire goal, I am saying they want to get started and as Andy said improve the car as they improve their driving. Is it going to be as easy as they thought, of course not.

But to claim that Improved Touring is more or less "entry level" than any other SCCA class is, in my opinion, disingenuous. - GA
[/b]

That is what I am claiming and I have been rightly called a lot of things but rarely disingenuous

ok everytime a noob shows up at our silly little piece of the universe what do we tell them? Its cheaper to buy a car already built (and it always is) than it is to build your first race car. Get license and enjoy said car. [/b]

Evan we always tell them that but I guess less than half do it that way. Everyone things they can do this cheaper better. It is the reality.

[Greg Amy]

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...wtopic=8785&hl=

[JeffYoung]

Not sure I see the distinction here. Isn't IT both entry and non-entry level?

IT IS entry level in that you can bolt on a few parts and race.

IT IS NOT entry level in that you can't win by doing so.

ITR by necessity is going to have a higher barrier to entry than the other IT classes, and there is no way to change that. So it just means that the entry level racer will have to think hard about class and car selection.

Lots of guys build a B car first, then move up the "speed chain."

So, back to the real issue: do we maintain the same ruleset across all IT classes? I think we have to.

[dickita15]

So, back to the real issue: do we maintain the same ruleset across all IT classes? I think we have to.
[/b]

yes yes yes yes. ITR should absolutley have the same modifications as any other IT class. If I led anyone to think otherwise then I am sorry.

my point is that across all the IT class as we class more newer and higher tech cars ABS is going to be a bigger problem. I think it is wrong to make racers replumb their brake system to get in to IT racing. with each evolution of cars I predict it will become harder and harder to make the car work without ABS.

its like if we said 10 years ago that everyone had to run carbs because that is what IT is.

[Z3_GoCar]

......Show me one car out there that has done nothing but 'bolt on a few (safety) pieces and raced'. Name one person whose entire goal for going racing is to simply show up and not worry about being competitive.....
[/b]

.... ABS can be disabled by pulling a fuse or a sensor or unplugging the abs ecu...or if it is a full time race car, replumb it. I have to agree with GA and Mlytle some of this stuff is not for entry level people in IT...but if you want to race and do it on a budget, race a cheap car to get time. an entry level one. not an SIR equipped ABS disabled BMW 325...maybe a used IT7 car/SM/ITA CRX/insert 5k-7.5k car here...or a 2.5k GTI as many have...
[/b]

Well Greg,

I can name one. He was in my Super School class, his name was Kip and even though he was from a different region, I'm afraid that I might have scared him away from SCCA. Kip's car had a cage and a fire extinguisher, it was a car that he'd done several track days in too. The interior was still in it including the carpet, no where near a full prep car. He'd had the car a couple of years and decided to go racing with it. The letters on the side said ITS, guess what it was....

Evan,
Why do we have the right to decided what car is an entry level car and which aren't, do we want to make special rules so that guy's that drive Acura's or Mazda's have to do special prep work? Oh, don't show up in you .... .... RSX, it's not an entry level car. I agree with Greg on this point though all of IT is entry level.

[zracre]

Entry level is determined by....the person entering. Entry level budget for a Mechanic wanting to race is different than the 7 figure executive. or the small business owner. or the 711 employee. Everyone is different and have different life obligations and skill levels. there is no way to put a real value on it or car type. All cars have hurdles some big some small.

I will repost in gregs thread.