ITR Competition

[mlytle]

Wow I can’t believe you actually want that statement to come of as arrogant as it sounds. Maybe the air is a little thin at the front of the grid but if course IT is entry level and not everyone who tries IT racing is doing a $20,000 development effort. By the way SRx7 is only a class in a small part of the country. Are you saying everyone should start in Miata before they drive a “real” racecar?

In order to grow SCCA and IT racing we need to allow drivers to ease into this sport as much as possible. I have no problem with making it so there is a penalty that would prevent ABS cars from being at the front of the grid. New people are not expecting to win. There are tons of cars doing track days and Marque club event that are nervous about wheel to wheel racing and this attitude just makes us more intimidating.

Go back and read Dave Gran’s book and try to get into the mindset of a new person and then tell me redoing you brake system is no big deal.
[/b]

not arrogant…just being a realist.

racing is not simple. maintaining any race car is very time consuming, whether you are at the front or back of the grid. people coming into the sport need to realize this or they won't last long. either folks learn to do basic maint stuff (like brake work) or they will have to pay someone else to do it. many cars in it classes are not good beginners cars. a car you can buy or have built to a spec is much simpler to maintain than it cars in the top classes.

I stick to my thought that if someone can't manage to bend and screw in a few foot long brake lines to bypass their abs, then they need to find another class, pay someone to do it or find a different hobby. it really is easy to do. if you haven't done it before, don't be scared!

think about the target audience here for new racers. it isn't joe blow off the street who has never seen a car before, it is the de/auto-x/tuner crowd. many of their cars are already pretty far down the modification road. I bet brake plumbing is probably simpler that a lot of the mods they have already done. heck most of them (and you) have probably installed new or braided brake lines in their car...that is the same level of complexity as bypassing an abs pump.

[JoshS]

Here's the thing.

Newbies can look at the rules and think about where they can buy all of the bolt-on stuff they need to go racing. Seats, harnesses, helmets, suspension parts, headers, etc, etc, etc. However, when they see that they need to plumb around their ABS controller, they have no idea where to go to buy the kit to do that. It's fabrication, not bolt-on. That's what raises it a level above the other mods necessary.

Sure, once you know who to talk to about getting custom stuff done, it seems like no big deal, but IT *appears* to be a bolt-on class, except for this requirement. And it's a requirement, not even optional. I.e., I could be building my car up slowly, but before I even get the car on the track, I have to do this thing that appears to be difficult.

[JeffYoung]

Josh, then pick a car that does not require the work around. Most at this time do not.

Dick's point is correct, that the time is coming when most will, but for right now, I still say it is far better to require the work around than to allow and police ABS (meaning what effect will it have on performance).

[JoshS]

I understand that the status quo right now is not totally objectionable. I'm just illustrating why this particular hurdle is larger than some other hurdles, for certain models of cars. The list of cars will likely get larger over time, but things are okay right now.

But I'm continually surprised by how afraid people are of ABS. My experiencing racing three different ABS-equipped cars in SS and Touring tells me that it's really no big deal. In all of the cars, the ABS pretty much never was a factor, except when it got confused, the pedal went totally hard and there was no braking at all. The best thing about ABS was that if you did something stupid, you didn't flat-spot a tire and have to throw a race away (not to mention the tire). It's actually more of a budget saver than a performance enhancement (unless it's raining).

[Ron Earp]

There are going to be a whole bunch of the younger generation who won't know how to build things to race. Just the way it is. Many are used to calling up Greddy, Jackson, Millen, etc. and ordering a part, bolting it on, and going faster. But it takes a lot more than bolting on parts to go faster and race competitively.

A lot of the young people won't have any problem with fabbing stuff up and getting on with it. Everyone I've met in the paddock actively racing wouldn't have a problem doing it either. Maybe I've just been lucky in the people I've run into, but everyone I've met racing seems to be very competent working on their own car - tranny swap in the paddock? No problem. New head on before tomorrow's race? Done, pass me that beer. Rebuild brake calipers? Done that twice today, let's do it again. New hard lines? Get out the flair tool. I've helped folks do these things and had people help me do same.

We ought not change the rules around because we think that plumbing around an ABS controller is too hard for the up and coming racing crowd, or existing racers.

R

[zracre]

There are going to be a whole bunch of the younger generation who won't know how to build things to race. Just the way it is. Many are used to calling up Greddy, Jackson, Millen, etc. and ordering a part, bolting it on, and going faster. But it takes a lot more than bolting on parts to go faster and race competitively.

A lot of the young people won't have any problem with fabbing stuff up and getting on with it. Everyone I've met in the paddock actively racing wouldn't have a problem doing it either. Maybe I've just been lucky in the people I've run into, but everyone I've met racing seems to be very competent working on their own car - tranny swap in the paddock? No problem. New head on before tomorrow's race? Done, pass me that beer. Rebuild brake calipers? Done that twice today, let's do it again. New hard lines? Get out the flair tool. I've helped folks do these things and had people help me do same.

We ought not change the rules around because we think that plumbing around an ABS controller is too hard for the up and coming racing crowd, or existing racers.

R
[/b]

If someone racing does not want to learn how to do minor things on their car then IMHO they should not be driving it unless they have a wallet capable of fixing things. Im not saying everyone shoud O/H their car in the pits 5 min before a race, just have knowledge of how it works...even un-mechanical pilots I know can tell you how the rudder works on a Cessna 172 or a Warrior, how to check for water in the fuel or what carb heat is and its purpose...required learning. So when it breaks on the track they know what to do to bring it to the trailer in one piece (or at least brought back on ONE wrecker).

[dickita15]

As Josh said removing the ABS is a little intimidating as it is not a matter of running a few lines, it is more in knowing what to do. The interface to the electronics is getting more complicated. I watched an ITA competitor, a pretty smart guy, screw around for a season trying to get the car to not go in the limp mode without the ABS.

Maybe we are not there yet but we are going to have to face this issue.

I have been also thinking about why Greg is uncomfortable with IT being labeled entry level. I do not think that designation diminishes in any way what it takes to win in the class. If someone were new to SCCA racing would you recommend IT? Of course you would and that makes it entry level. Is IT a class where you can win without a lot of money, prep and talent, uh no.

IT, in our area anyway, is and entry level class and also just about the hardest to win. Hmm I am not sure why we have any other classes.

[gran racing]

Evan, using an analogy of a pilot versus someone who club races cracks me up. The two are very different.

We ought not change the rules around because we think that plumbing around an ABS controller is too hard for the up and coming racing crowd, or existing racers. [/b]

No. We ought not change rules around if they are not suitable for the class, would cause safety issues, or would provide unfair advantages to some cars. Why shouldn't we try to reduce the barriers for new entrants? Without sounding too sarcastic - that's fine and dandy for you (and me) the existing / experienced racers.

With my newbie hat on... I really, really want to race my S2000. I read the rules about needing to deactivate the car’s ABS, but learn that it's not as simple as taking a fuse out. Someone then tells me I need to re-plumb it, but if I can't do that I shouldn't be racing anyways. So I take a hard look at the engine bay and try to figure things out. I look at the brake system, but replumbing doesn't look as simple as some make it sound. I don't have any friends who are into racing (yet) or know how to do this type of "easy task". The next step I take is to call a few of the local garages. The first one tells me there’s no way he will touch it due to liability. I then tell him the car isn’t registered, but still they want nothing to do with it. The next shop I call specializes in brakes. The first guy I speak with there has me talk with the owner of the shop who also races. Cool, now I’m getting somewhere. I tell him what I’m doing, and how someone else told me it’s really easy to do. “Well, have him do it then.” was his response. He actually wasn’t being a jerk and I go onto explain that it is someone else who races. “Is it not that simple?” “No, it’s not.” He too brings up the potential liability issue. I tell him that I understand where he’s coming from. “Would you be willing to install my master kill switch?” “Sure. I’d have to give some thought about pricing, but we could help you with that.” He does refer me to a speed shop down the street where they do work on racecars. I call them but they quickly tell me they are not interested in the job. (And yes, I actually called these shops and these are what the responses were, nothing embellished.)

Later I go online and others tell me if I can’t do it, then choose a different car. The fact is I want to race my S2000. But wait, there is another option that sounds much, much easier. Another club, NASA, allows me to race the car with the ABS intact. Guess where I’m going. Some SCCA drivers throw their noses up and say if they can’t do that simple task, I don’t want them racing on the track with me. (Cause that’s what some sound like to me.)

[zracre]

we live n a high tech world. I wouldn't re-plumb ABS without talking someone who knows the ins and outs of a particular model. If this person blows a motor at the track in their ITC car...they will have to get it fixed somehow. There are places that will do the work it just takes research and someone who has done/solved it before...again the benefits time has on a car. This theoretical person could call a Tom Fowler or Anthony Serra or Mike Van Steenburg of Irish Mike etc etc etc and get it solved relatively quick. If they live in BFE then it will of course cost more...mut many shops are willing to share info to get you as a customer (as they should)


the reason i compare the 2 are others are at risk of your actions in a plane and race car.

[x-ring]

The best thing about ABS was that if you did something stupid, you didn't flat-spot a tire and have to throw a race away (not to mention the tire). It's actually more of a budget saver than a performance enhancement (unless it's raining).
[/b]

The last time we discussed this Kirk, and others, were pushing the idea that running with ABS is actually a disadvantage, so why not let it in.

No. We ought not change rules around if they ... would provide unfair advantages to some cars.
[/b]

Mark Donohue mentions ABS in his book. He called it the greatest unfair advantage of all.

[Ron Earp]

Mark Donohue mentions ABS in his book. He called it the greatest unfair advantage of all.
[/b]

I think Mark was thinking of an ABS system that would work the way he wanted.....Not the way it is delivered from mainstream auto manufactuers.

Guys, you can come up with lots of analogies about new racers being turned away becaues they couldn't plumb their ABS. But the problem is solvable without a rules change. Might cost money. Might cost time. Or, egads! - it might make someone sit down, logically evaluate it and figure out how it works, then "fix" it. As pointed out, there are shops that will handle it, and LOTS indivduals like myself who will help out for interests sake.

Pilots and racers are not that different - one in the same for me, and many others on this board. Don't fly planes I don't understand, and I don't race cars I don't understand. I just haven't found any racers out there in IT driving cars they don't maintain and understand well. I'll look harder next time.

Ron

[x-ring]

I think Mark was thinking of an ABS system that would work the way he wanted.....Not the way it is delivered from mainstream auto manufactuers.

Ron
[/b]

He was actually talking about a relatively stock Porsche 911 prepped for a series, the name of which eludes me at the moment, that took drivers from different types of motorsports and put them in identical cars to see who was best.

Anyway, that's beside the point. If you let ABS in, how long do you think it will be until someone makes it work 'the way they want'? If we can't police ECUs how will we police ABS?

EDIT: As soon as I hit the post button the series name came to me: IROC.

[zracre]

I think Mark was thinking of an ABS system that would work the way he wanted.....Not the way it is delivered from mainstream auto manufactuers.

Ron
[/b]

And there is the problem! someone with cubic $$$ (or just plain good with that stuff) will make it work to an advantage...opening pandoras box.

Ty you beat me to the enter key!

[JoshS]

Suggestion: "Cars with ABS from the factory may not alter or replace hard braking system components except for the lines from the fender to the caliper." Wouldn't that make it impossible to build that magical ABS system?

This would make the rules like for ABS-equipped cars like the Touring rules. Again, when I look at Touring, where budgets are high, ECUs are free, and ABS is allowed, I just don't see people doing what you are suggesting. And the desire to win there is very high.

[lateapex911]

When you make policy decisions and then the rules that follow, you have to look at all the possibilities.

So, lets debunk some myths....

Myth: ABS isn't good for racing.
Debunk: Some systems suck, but it is possible that some are designed better. I read constantly about traction control, stability and ABS systems that work poorly, and about those that work well. It IS possible that some manufacturer makes, or will make, an ABS sytem that is an advantage in racing.

Myth: We don't use ABS in racing situations.
Debunk: Do we only brake in straight lines on perfect pavement? No...we trailbrake into corners, over berms, on oil or water, on greasy tracks, on drying tracks and on wet tracks. We don't do any of that all the time, but we do it.

Myth: Disabling the ABS function to meet the rules is within the expected skill set of the competitor.
Debunk: I can name a bunch of racers, smart guys, who have either struggled with ABS or have chosen not to race a certain car due to their lack of confidence in dealing with it. One cited it as a reason he stays with another club.

IF it's allowed, we have to assume that some systems WILL be an advantage, and write the rule accordingly. If it's allowed to be removed, we give the competitor the choice, so there's no unfairness about assuming that some systems are worhty of a penalty where others aren't.

The other ramification is troubling though. Leaving the sensors in, and allowing ECU mods can clearly result in unintended consequences, like traction control. Is it being done now? Dunno....could it? Absolutley. Do we want that?? I don't think so. Maybe we say "OK" and assume its going to be done if the competitor chooses to run ABS, and structure the rule and penalty accordingly?

Just thinking out loud..

[Dave Ebersole]

Look guys, I'm no #$%&@# genious and I disconnected the ABS in my Audi street car, mainly because the pump was failed and I couldn't find a replacement when I needed it.

As far as the threats go, or attempted arm-twisting, how's this? I'm thinking about ITR also. The car I want to build doesn't have an electronic fuel injection that I can chip or replace so I'm a bit screwed there. It doesn't have ABS, quality or not, so I may be at a big dis-advantage there. It does have the potential to be expensive, maybe in the mid-20s to build, and after everything shakes out may be totally uncompetitive due to the fact that it's older and doesn't have all the electronic soup-up potential. I currently race in ITB, which seems to be dying a little lately. What should I do? Maybe get my PCA license.

[mlytle]

It's actually more of a budget saver than a performance enhancement (unless it's raining).
[/b]

bingo. we can debate all day whether abs is an advantage or not in the dry, but is there any debate about the rain advantage abs has? i really don't think we want to go down the road of different min weights for different weather conditions.
as some have said, all abs systems are not alike. even the olser early 90's bmw abs systems are pretty good. i used to run with the abs on in bmw club events sometimes. (before i spent $10 on some short brake lines and 2 hours of my time taking the abs pump out.) abs worked great in the dry and was a big advantage in the wet. it is allowed in bmw club racing and no one is disabling it to gain any advantage.....

[gran racing]

I disconnected the ABS in my Audi street car [/b]

But not all systems are the same to disconnect. Some are really easy and the person can just take the fuse out.

Dave - looks like you need to make a trip over to Lime Rock some some ITB races.

[Dave Ebersole]

Dave, My system was a bit more complicated than removing a fuse. I had to remove the ABS pump assy, which meant re-plumbing the lines near the master cylinder. It still wasn't rocket science.

BTW, I would love to come to Lime rock sometime. It would be a long tow though for me (100 miles east of Pittsburgh).

[Bill Miller]

Look guys, I'm no #$%&@# genious and I disconnected the ABS in my Audi street car, mainly because the pump was failed and I couldn't find a replacement when I needed it.

As far as the threats go, or attempted arm-twisting, how's this? I'm thinking about ITR also. The car I want to build doesn't have an electronic fuel injection that I can chip or replace so I'm a bit screwed there. It doesn't have ABS, quality or not, so I may be at a big dis-advantage there. It does have the potential to be expensive, maybe in the mid-20s to build, and after everything shakes out may be totally uncompetitive due to the fact that it's older and doesn't have all the electronic soup-up potential. I currently race in ITB, which seems to be dying a little lately. What should I do? Maybe get my PCA license.[/b]

Go ahead and build that 911 Dave!