944S

[robits325is]

If he get's a 100#'s off, I want my SIR off............but I'll settle for a 3mm increase. For that I'll let Rob wear your underwear (if you wear them) over his head @ LRP.
[/b]

170hp and 2,900lbs - sounds reasonable for ITS

most other cars are in the neighborhood of 190hp and 2,850lbs

I'll wear a Flatspot shirt but no underwear!

[Andy Bettencourt]

170hp and 2,900lbs - sounds reasonable for ITS

most other cars are in the neighborhood of 190hp and 2,850lbs

I'll wear a Flatspot shirt but no underwear!


[/b]

Feel free to spit out some examples...I'll help:
188 hp 944S - weighted based on known 'lower than average' power output in IT.
189hp E36 - moot due to SIR. Would be 3200+ in unrestricted form.
200hp Supra - 3300lbs
195hp Prelude - 2905 and FWD!

What else do you see 190+ hp?

It's not all just about stock HP. If it was it would be the car-of-the month class.

[robits325is]

What else do you see 190+ hp?

[/b]

What else has 170hp and weighs 3,000lbs or more?

What was the potential for this car when is was classified?

25% increase over stock? 170 * 1.25 = 213
30%? 170 * 1.30 = 221
40%? 170 - 1.40 = 238
more?

Aero of a brick?
Big 4 door sedan vs. 2 door sports cars?
Every chassis produced had ABS standard? Any subtractor for that?

Where can I find the classification sheets?

[Andy Bettencourt]

What else has 170hp and weighs 3,000lbs or more?

What was the potential for this car when is was classified?

25% increase over stock? 170 * 1.25 = 213
30%? 170 * 1.30 = 221
40%? 170 - 1.40 = 238
more?

Aero of a brick?
Big 4 door sedan vs. 2 door sports cars?
Every chassis produced had ABS standard? Any subtractor for that?

Where can I find the classification sheets?
[/b]

I might point out that you built this car KNOWING it was 3000lbs. Help me undertand what you mean by the ABS thing. I don't understand.

Let me see:
Huge brakes
1:1 5th gear
Balanced chassis
An estimated 30% increase in power
180 stock ft/lbs
10.5:1 compression (11:1 legal)
Electronically controlled cam timing...

You run on the podium with no aftermarket support after a year on track. Seems to me the results support the process.

[robits325is]

I might point out that you built this car KNOWING it was 3000lbs. Help me undertand what you mean by the ABS thing. I don't understand.

Let me see:
Huge brakes
1:1 5th gear
Balanced chassis
An estimated 30% increase in power
180 stock ft/lbs
10.5:1 compression (11:1 legal)
Electronically controlled cam timing...

You run on the podium with no aftermarket support after a year on track. Seems to me the results support the process.
[/b]

A BMW chassis designed to run with ABS does not easily adapt to simply removing the ABS sensors.

Huge brakes? same as a E-36 with an extra 150lbs

I thought results didn't matter.

What else justifies the huge weight differential compared to other similiar cars?

[Andy Bettencourt]

A BMW chassis designed to run with ABS does not easily adapt to simply removing the ABS sensors.

Huge brakes? same as a E-36 with an extra 150lbs

I thought results didn't matter.

What else justifies the huge weight differential compared to other similiar cars?

[/b]

So you want a weight break because someting isn't 'easily adaptable'?

E36 is an anomoly. Told you it should weigh 3200+lbs. CRB decided SIR was a better idea. Not a good example to hang your hat on.

You have to actually READ what people write Rob. Results are not the driving force behind any change. The process is an imperfect science that has seemingly created a ton of viable options in every class - as it was desinged to do. Some results support the process, like your competitivness as I stated.

What cars are you talking about - and what items on my list of characteristics of the 323 didn't you see? Your potential power output puts it within 5hp of the 944S (in theory given equal builds). It will never be perfect but you did do your research before you sold your E36...right?

[robits325is]

Your potential power output puts it within 5hp of the 944S (in theory given equal builds).
[/b]

Then why are the weights different?

[Andy Bettencourt]

If you have to ask that then you haven't be listening at all.
The feedings will stop.

[Fastfred92]

My .02 is that the e46 will not yield as large of a gain as the e36 cars did, even with motec b/c the cam profiles are much milder in the 323 e46 car. I don't think the 30% you say can be found in the M50 engines can be duplicated in the e46.

The only aspect of a 944S that sucks is the rear torsion bars, everything else looks to be a nice package!

[dj10]

My .02 is that the e46 will not yield as large of a gain as the e36 cars did, even with motec b/c the cam profiles are much milder in the 323 e46 car. I don't think the 30% you say can be found in the M50 engines can be duplicated in the e46.
[/b]

And your 2 cents is based on what?

[Fastfred92]

And your 2 cents is based on what?
[/b]

Simple DJ, BMW had to put the e46 323 in a lower power market relative to the 328 which had similar power output of the old e36 325's in order not to compete with each other. The gurus gave the 2.5 unit milder cam profiles than the 2.8 had, so even with the dual vanos system you only get but so much cam lift and duration. Then the OBD II injection demands some aftermarket ( motec ) system to reach any maximum potential.

[ChrisCamadella]

My .02 is that the e46 will not yield as large of a gain as the e36 cars did, even with motec b/c the cam profiles are much milder in the 323 e46 car. I don't think the 30% you say can be found in the M50 engines can be duplicated in the e46.

The only aspect of a 944S that sucks is the rear torsion bars, everything else looks to be a nice package!
[/b]

I'm not sure I understand what sucks about the rear torsion bars. They're just as effective as coil springs, they have a much lower unsprung mass, and they're much closer to the ground.

Hmmm...

[lateapex911]

Chris, correct me if I'm wrong, as you are far more knowledgable in this area, but I think the issues with torsion bars in this form of racing are the difficulties in easy swapping. They are harder to swap than many coil spring setups, and corner weighting is more difficult as there is no adjuster. or am I (hopefully) incorrecct. I put Wevo SPSs on my 911 which make corner weighting a breeze, but thats not legal for IT, is it? (Or do the 944s have the limited adjustability found on certain year 911s as well?)

[924Guy]

A BMW chassis designed to run with ABS does not easily adapt to simply removing the ABS sensors.
[/b]

LOL... as an ABS engineer, not just a Porsche driver, I'd love to hear your reasoning behind this...

Yes, the t-bars are adjustable for ride height as mentioned on 911's. Only very early 924's are not so adjustable, but that's ITB and parts are swappable (legally). The T-bars are a royal PITA to swap, but who really swaps out springs on their cars on a regular basis? The real PITA, IMO, of the rear suspension is the difficulty in setting camber and toe properly. NOT easy.

[robits325is]

LOL... as an ABS engineer, not just a Porsche driver, I'd love to hear your reasoning behind this...

[/b]

No engineering degree here - just real world experience. It took years to make my E-36 brake well. dozens of flatspotted tires and lots of frustration is my only reasoning. In the end it was good but it took a lot of work and a lot of effort.

[dj10]

No engineering degree here - just real world experience. It took years to make my E-36 brake well. dozens of flatspotted tires and lots of frustration is my only reasoning. In the end it was good but it took a lot of work and a lot of effort.
[/b]

No engineering degree here either. It took me 1 test day and 30 seconds to figure how to make my E36 brake well.

[robits325is]

No engineering degree here either. It took me 1 test day and 30 seconds to figure how to make my E36 brake well.
[/b]

Maybe I should hire a professional driver.

I should have given more background - the car was fine on smooth tracks but the bumpy tracks were the challenge - i.e. Lime Rock

[JeffYoung]

Vaughan, I would consider that a disadvantage (inability to quickly change rear springs). Perhaps teh ONLY advantage of a live rear axle like that in my car is that I can change rears in 3 minutes. For a test day, in roughing in the stiffness of the rear -- which is key, given that it's where RWD cars put the power done -- this is huge.

You guys can overcome it, it just takes far more time.

Rob -- ABS farked up E36 brakes? 275 hp Porsches 944s? 200 lb reduction to the 323? website advertising CLEARLY illegal E36 subframe bracing and seam welding?

I'm losing ya man, I really am. What planet were you from again?

[ChrisCamadella]

Chris, correct me if I'm wrong, as you are far more knowledgable in this area, but I think the issues with torsion bars in this form of racing are the difficulties in easy swapping. They are harder to swap than many coil spring setups, and corner weighting is more difficult as there is no adjuster. or am I (hopefully) incorrecct. I put Wevo SPSs on my 911 which make corner weighting a breeze, but thats not legal for IT, is it? (Or do the 944s have the limited adjustability found on certain year 911s as well?)
[/b]

The suspension arrangement in the rear of a 944 is adjustable for ride height, camber, and toe. It does take some experience and a few tricks to get them all right at the same time, but once you've done it a few times, it's really no problem.

It IS a total pain to swap them out - you have to remove the entire rear suspension from the car, so in that way, they are a pain. Fortunately, we don't do that too often!

Cheers,

[latebrake]

The suspension arrangement in the rear of a 944 is adjustable for ride height, camber, and toe. It does take some experience and a few tricks to get them all right at the same time, but once you've done it a few times, it's really no problem.

It IS a total pain to swap them out - you have to remove the entire rear suspension from the car, so in that way, they are a pain. Fortunately, we don't do that too often!

Cheers,
[/b]

After changing my torsion bars out the hard way once I asked an old 924 racer from back in the day. Now I can pull mine out of the car and juggle them and put them back in under 30 min. Thats a lie ,I cant juggle. The D production cars had camber boxes on the the torsion bar carrier to afford more neg camber on the rear wheels. Cant do this in IT but properly made eccentric bushings on the trailing arms on the torsion bar carrier will give you 4 degrees of neg camber. You wont need that much. On my production car I could change the torision bars for ride height faster than doing it with the eccentric bolts.
Lawrence