944S

[robits325is]

According to the 'process', how much potential horsepower is the 944s supposed to make?

187 * 1.25 = 234hp Is that correct?

After being behind all 3 ( Kip, Chris and Russ) of the previously mentioned 944s at three different tracks I find that number extremely conservative. If I had to guess based on bumper to bumper competition I would put that number closer to 275-280 - just my opinion -

All three of those cars performed exactly the same from my perspective.

[lateapex911]

According to the 'process', how much potential horsepower is the 944s supposed to make?

187 * 1.25 = 234hp Is that correct?

.....based on bumper to bumper competition.....I would put that number closer to 275-280 ....

[/b]

280??

Better get the protest paper out.........

....and while you're at it, write up Amy too, cuz he was 1 second off the ITS pace.....in his ITA car. Figure he's got what, 240?

[wpspeedracer]

Daytona is always a big ITS race - one week to go.....
Hopefully the new motor this fall will bring me up to the Kip V level....at least car performance wise....Looking to debut new motor at the October SAARC at Sebring. Wish that hadn't flipped the October Regional with the traditional Turkey Trot SAARC weekend in November....

See you Saturday

Mark

[BudMan]

If you want to see a 944S (please correct if I'm wrong in my car recognition) in motion, watch the last Heartland Park video.

http://www.nocoastracing.com/garage/BudMan...oad_7-16-06.wmv (~143M

I had a heck of a time getting by him. On the ~9th lap, when I caught back up, his front suspension busted with 2 laps to go. It was a shame, as Bryan and I were having a ball running together.

This car was setup for Porsche Cup & we were both running in SCCA ITE.

[wpspeedracer]

If that was running in ITE, it might have been a 944 S2 - big difference - 3 liter 16v. Or why would an S be in ITE when it's classed as an ITS car??? The only way to tell is open the hood - smae body style for all, no visible body changes other than the markings other on teh rear (944 S) and the sides (16 ventilator)

mark

[ChrisCamadella]

According to the 'process', how much potential horsepower is the 944s supposed to make?

187 * 1.25 = 234hp Is that correct?

After being behind all 3 ( Kip, Chris and Russ) of the previously mentioned 944s at three different tracks I find that number extremely conservative. If I had to guess based on bumper to bumper competition I would put that number closer to 275-280 - just my opinion -

All three of those cars performed exactly the same from my perspective.
[/b]

Umm, 275 - yeah, right. Your first number is actually more than we make, and I have the dyno sheets to prove it. Kip's engine and mine are essentially identical, I think - Russ' was built by someone else.

Both you and Bill S were faster than I was up the straights. However, the 944 is a very well balanced and good handling car, and I was able to gain ground in braking and around the corners.

Cheers,

[ChrisCamadella]

Looking at the above posts, I can say that is certainly a lot of (mostly wrong) speculation going on about the 944S.

Here's my $0.02:

1. The HP gains are actually less than you think, and we are making less HP than even the accepted 1.25 factor. The cams and the timing of them is stock, per the rules.
2. Yes, you're right, we do run MoTeC FI controllers inside the stock box, but the gains from this are pretty small - mostly just mapping the fuel to keep the engine happy and cool.


BUT, all of this stuff STILL doesn't make the HP that everyone thinks, as I said above. What you are overlooking is the fact that the REST of the car is prepped to the limit - we're not winning with HP, we're winning with ENOUGH hp (but not as much as some other cars), combined with good handling, good balance, good braking, good shocks, good setup, good tires, attention to detail and the data acquisition system, and at least OK driving. It's the whole package that wins races, not just the motor!!!

Besides, it's a Porsche - refer the the following chart:

Number of stock Chevrolet Camaro parts suitable for racing: ummm, maybe the clutch pedal?
Number of stock Porsche (any model) parts suitable for racing: nearly all of them!

Cheers,

[wpspeedracer]

"Besides, it's a Porsche - refer the the following chart:

Number of stock Chevrolet Camaro parts suitable for racing: ummm, maybe the clutch pedal?
Number of stock Porsche (any model) parts suitable for racing: nearly all of them!"

As I said earlier.....It's a Porsche ...so easy to drive...so little parts to change...a great car. As far as HP, I don't have anywere near the numbers the others are saying.....my last dyno run showed 179 at the rear wheels....184 when we took off the air cleaner....and I have over 150 hours on the motor....NO COMPLAINTS, that's dependability which equates to a modest racing budget which I appreciates as we all do.

Mark

[BudMan]

If that was running in ITE, it might have been a 944 S2 - big difference - 3 liter 16v. Or why would an S be in ITE when it's classed as an ITS car??? The only way to tell is open the hood - smae body style for all, no visible body changes other than the markings other on teh rear (944 S) and the sides (16 ventilator)

mark
[/b]

Hmm - good point. This was an S2. I didn't get a chance to look closely. Another race buddy had ridden in it during and HPDE. I guess I'll have to go look at the differences between S & S2 (I didn't realize there was an S only).

**I'm off to check out the S details

[robits325is]

Looking at the above posts, I can say that is certainly a lot of (mostly wrong) speculation going on about the 944S.

Here's my $0.02:

1. The HP gains are actually less than you think, and we are making less HP than even the accepted 1.25 factor. The cams and the timing of them is stock, per the rules.
2. Yes, you're right, we do run MoTeC FI controllers inside the stock box, but the gains from this are pretty small - mostly just mapping the fuel to keep the engine happy and cool.
BUT, all of this stuff STILL doesn't make the HP that everyone thinks, as I said above. What you are overlooking is the fact that the REST of the car is prepped to the limit - we're not winning with HP, we're winning with ENOUGH hp (but not as much as some other cars), combined with good handling, good balance, good braking, good shocks, good setup, good tires, attention to detail and the data acquisition system, and at least OK driving. It's the whole package that wins races, not just the motor!!!

Besides, it's a Porsche - refer the the following chart:

Number of stock Chevrolet Camaro parts suitable for racing: ummm, maybe the clutch pedal?
Number of stock Porsche (any model) parts suitable for racing: nearly all of them!

Cheers,
[/b]

I honestly have no idea how much horsepower a fully prepped 944s makes in IT trim. I think the racing is close and the competition is good. I don't think it is the best handling or best braking car in ITS. It is my opinion that this car seems like it has substantially more than the 226 listed on the ITR proposal sheet. I have seen Kips car start in 7th or so position at NHIS and have a 7 car lead by the end of the front straight. That is all horsepower. I look forward to battling the 944s. It should be a fun challenge.

[RussJones]

Rob, racing against you and Nicks old RX7, i can say with confidence the ITAC process is working. True I complained a lot last year about the car, but once the bugs were worked out and properly tuned (thanks to Milledge Engineering) its a good car. In the five races at NHIS, all nameplates have won a race (Tim Estes RX7, Autotechnic BMW 323, me and Kip 944S). Also, if you look at qualifing times and fastest lap per race Kip never had a thing on the competition, his execution was good starts, good racing and crew with data.

In regards to people reading this thread for 944 information. The reason its so expensive to build a good motor is the parts and process. You must bore, which means re-exposing silicon in the cylinders. You cant use bare aluminum pistons because of the aluminum block, so ferostan coated (or similar) must be found -not cheap.

The best resource is Milledge Engineering, Marshfield, MA he sells an orgainizer which helps with all parts.

Russ Jones 944S NE

PS- Rob I'll bring my dyno sheets to NH next month, will relax your mind......

[robits325is]

Rob, racing against you and Nicks old RX7, i can say with confidence the ITAC process is working. True I complained a lot last year about the car, but once the bugs were worked out and properly tuned (thanks to Milledge Engineering) its a good car. In the five races at NHIS, all nameplates have won a race (Tim Estes RX7, Autotechnic BMW 323, me and Kip 944S). Also, if you look at qualifing times and fastest lap per race Kip never had a thing on the competition, his execution was good starts, good racing and crew with data.

In regards to people reading this thread for 944 information. The reason its so expensive to build a good motor is the parts and process. You must bore, which means re-exposing silicon in the cylinders. You cant use bare aluminum pistons because of the aluminum block, so ferostan coated (or similar) must be found -not cheap.

The best resource is Milledge Engineering, Marshfield, MA he sells an orgainizer which helps with all parts.

Russ Jones 944S NE

PS- Rob I'll bring my dyno sheets to NH next month, will relax your mind......
[/b]

I don't need to see dyno sheets - thats fine I am always relaxed. I have had great racing this year so far and I look forward to more.

[dj10]

Besides, it's a Porsche - refer the the following chart:

Number of stock Chevrolet Camaro parts suitable for racing: ummm, maybe the clutch pedal?
Number of stock Porsche (any model) parts suitable for racing: nearly all of them!
Cheers,
[/b]

After racing a Porsche for some years I do agree with Chris and this is one of the biggest reasons I decided to stay with German cars.

[Zneed4speed]

Kip V. Was impressive at Road Atlanta....but wasn't really pushed by anyone.
That car is quite clean, and well kept. Looking at all that ballast was a worrisome in my mind 3stacks of 75-90 pounds chunks of lead in the floor...lotta weight.

John Williams had couple of 1:41s this past weekend, not bad for 95 degree weather.

Hope they both show for the ARRC in November, will be quite the show.

I think the 944s has more.....
David Spillman
[/b]

Wish I could have ran there. That is an unbelievable amount of ballast-for safety alone the weight shoud be reduced
The not being pushed may account for the lap times more than weather.
The margins in the NE races were very close, too close to be just smart racing.

Good attitude about the great racing Rob. I haven't raced against them but I can't see getting 275 HP out of the 944S.

I have seen Kips car start in 7th or so position at NHIS and have a 7 car lead by the end of the front straight. That is all horsepower. I look forward to battling the 944s. It should be a fun challenge.
[/b]

Gearing might help here too Rob, or jumping the green.
At Roebling I gained spots on the start because I was in the powerband when the green flew and I blew past the RX-7 that qualified in front of me.
If I'd been him I'd have thought "that guy had 30 or 40 more HP than me". Knowing my car, I know it was because I was in the best part of the gearing.

[dspillrat]

Zneed4speed said:

"That is an unbelievable amount of ballast"

Mentioning the amount of ballast was just my visual observation....I don't know what the material was, it may not have been lead, or any metal for that matter. It looked real. I've been fooled before with silly stuff. I'm far too gullible at times.......

I think faster times would be recorded if something was banging on the rear bumper of Kips 944s...

Very nice car....
220 plus HP....not likely...

david

[Andy Bettencourt]

Seems as if the real data from the Porsche guys validates the process. Many thanks.

[robits325is]

Seems as if the real data from the Porsche guys validates the process. Many thanks.
[/b]

Wow - too bad you wern't that accecpting with 'other' horsepower claims over the past few years.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Wow - too bad you wern't that accecpting with 'other' horsepower claims over the past few years.
[/b]

Actually Rob, what you fail to understand is that there was plenty of data (in which we pubished here) to support that the E36 could make 245 CRANK hp (or 200whp) in full IT trim. That is what the process WOULD have used should the CRB have decided to treat it like every other car.

And you are estimating that Kip's car is making 275 crank - 30 MORE than an unrestricted 325? Oh boy.

[latebrake]

Wow - too bad you wern't that accecpting with 'other' horsepower claims over the past few years.
[/b]

Hey BMW guy,its nice to see someone else bringing their own condoms just to be on the safe side trying to get a break form the board. While they are wearing your a$$ out they were leaving us alone for a change No harm done I hope just kidding some. There is no way 275 comes from a 44S in ITS trim. A good stock engine with tricked exhaust and intake should do very nicely in ITS. The rest is set up,data and driving. Data is worth far more than given credit on any car. Its not cheap either. HP loss through the drive train on the 44S is 20%. a few tricks can cut some of that off and its ITS legal but hard on the parts and short life through the tube. Fooling with the rear end of the car to bring it into the US can be changed and the back end stays put better. Looks like fun to me.

Lawrence

[Zneed4speed]

Seems as if the real data from the Porsche guys validates the process. Many thanks.
[/b]

OK Chris and Russ did how much did Andy pay you to throw in your 2 cents?
Yes I'm kidding.

Andy, I did not intend to even hint that the ITAC process didn't work when I mentioned the S weight.
I appreciate what the ITAC does, but I wasn't even thinking of the ITAC when I posted.
I would like to think that the ITAC has open minds and that all input is given due consideration though.