944S

[latebrake]

Is anyone racing and having fun with the 944S this year? We will finish ours in about__ a week or a few months_ I will be in Dallas all next week so no work then. I havent been here or looked around racing for the past few months so I am a little out of touch. Just wondering.

[Zneed4speed]

Just ran my 16V for the first time a couple of weeks ago at Roebling double SAARC. I still have quite a bit of development to do.

[Andy Bettencourt]

They are proving to be excellent contenders here in the Northeast. Kip Vansteenburg (5 wins in 5 tries) and Chris Camadella (1 win and one 7th) have combined for 6 wins! These cars all have been prepped to the max.

[JeffYoung]

We have at least one other in the SEDiv -- Mark Nasrallah.

Andy, Kip apparently had his car at Road Atlanta last weekend and was fast as stink. A buddy of mine noted
that he had sensors in the wheels to record tire temps while on track (outer/mid/inner). He would
watch the temps go up and down at various parts of the track.

So, yes, I would say prepped to the MAX.

And cool cars on top of that.

[Team SSR]

Latebrake,
We will be at VIR for the National August 12,13 (for CCPS and Pro IT). We will be racing an 8V, but I also have an S that is a daily driver being set-up for a track car. Look us up if you get the chance.

[Zneed4speed]

You're probably still on track running the 8V. With the new lower weight for the 8V I'm not sure the 16V was the right decision.
Like I said I have a lot of development left, and even though I was 4th out of 10 in ITS at Roebling a couple of weeks ago, I was 4 seconds behind the leaders.
Not so bad for a new car but I've ran faster times in my 8V than I did a couple of weeks ago in the 16V.

So I'm discouraged with the 16V at least at 2850 pounds....

[JeffYoung]

RL, as you probably know, Roebling is pretty "track condition" dependent. I'm down into the high 25s in the TR8, but that is usually in the morning session. Afternoons when it is hot, 26s and low 27s is usually the best I can do (and I have a lot of development to do as well).

So, maybe the 16v hasn't hit Roebling at the right time yet? April in the spring is usually the best time for good laps there.

Those guys who run 23 an 24, or -- gasp-- 22, not sure how I am ever going to get there.

Jeff

[wpspeedracer]

R.L.
so what did you run at Roebling? I ran a high 23 in quailfying and a 25.4 during the race - hot - late afternoon and greasy. Funny thing though, my best time there was in my old 8v 944 - a 22.9....(unofficial - hot lap time)... amazing what you can do in a 2600# car vs. a 2850# car. Wish they would give us a weight reduction like the N/A 944's for next year.

mark

[Andy Bettencourt]

The 944S fits the process very well - using very 'Posrche' like IT gain numbers - ie: minimal. The results for top prep and top driven cars up here (oh ya - don't forget Russ Jones who has a win as well in the NARRC) fully support the current weight. All 3 have JME power. Actually, these 3 944S drivers have combined for 8 wins in 10 events this season...and the other 2 had wet conditions. Heck - if we used on track data as a primary driver of weights, you would be looking some 'gain' votes from NER players.

You won't see a reduction on that car - or any car that has been through the process...in theory, the 8V and the 16V should be equal on the track.

[robits325is]

The 944S fits the process very well - using very 'Posrche' like IT gain numbers - ie: minimal. The results for top prep and top driven cars up here (oh ya - don't forget Russ Jones who has a win as well in the NARRC) fully support the current weight. All 3 have JME power. Actually, these 3 944S drivers have combined for 8 wins in 10 events this season...and the other 2 had wet conditions. Heck - if we used on track data as a primary driver of weights, you would be looking some 'gain' votes from NER players.

You won't see a reduction on that car - or any car that has been through the process...in theory, the 8V and the 16V should be equal on the track.
[/b]

Why does that car only achieve minimal gains according to the process?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Why does that car only achieve minimal gains according to the process? [/b]

I am not sure you worded that correctly, but the process takes into account 'known' gains in IT prep. The 9448V and 16V do not respond to IT prep like average motors. Experts can chime in here and describe why.

Cars on the opposite end of the spectrum (12A, 13B, E36 2.5, 88-91 CRX 1.6, etc, etc, etc) that are known to make more than the standard 25% uplift are also taken into acount.

In all actuality, the 8V and 16V 944's have this taken into account but there is still some fudge factor in there that defends against overdog status. Anything out of the norm should be done cautiously. One of the most respected builders in the country quotes 185 crank hp in full IT prep for a 8V 944 - up from 157. 18%? The process uses 20% for that car to be fair to the drivers of these cars and the rest of the class.

[wpspeedracer]

[quote]
I am not sure you worded that correctly, but the process takes into account 'known' gains in IT prep. The 9448V and 16V do not respond to IT prep like average motors. Experts can chime in here and describe why.

Not tha I would call myself an expert and not going the JME route by doing it mostly l on my own, here is what I have learned after 2 1/2 years of eeeeeking out every bit of hp from the S that I can:

#1 Cam Timing: is such in the head of a 944 S that you can not change it (inexpensievley). I've been told that you can play around with shims under the cam tower at 1/10,000 change per dyno run - disassemble, add or subtract, try again...very time consuming and $$$

#2 DME: Porsche has made the dme propriatory and diffficult at best to dynamically change. There are a few companies out there that make street chips, but none that I have found that makes them for our purpose. Once again, JME guts the dme and puts in a Motec - $$$$$ and minimal gains from what I have heard.

#3 Headers: no one has made to date an 'engineered header' for the S. I built one out of pieces and parts from a 928 header, sent it off to MSDS Inc. who made a really nice header for the car. Then Irish Mike and I spent several days playing around with marrying up an exhaust and muffler combination that gave us the most significant power gains than all of the above. Now, other 944 S owners have purchased that header from MSDS only to have it not fit their car. There is no room between the chasis and the clutch housing so it fits some and not others.

Legally, we are not allowed to touch anything else on the motor so we have nowhere else to go but the suspension.

Other than that, there is really very little more to do to the car that it will respond to. Jim Higgs of JB Racing (a real expert amongst real racers) basically says that when PORSCHE originally brought the 944 S to market, they had already built one hell of a power plant that is about as close to 'race ready' as you can find in an off the show room floor back in 1987 with the technology at hand. With that in mind, I have found the 944 S to be a great track car. Most races I only have to torque the wheels, check the water, oil, and air pressure, and watch everyone else work on their cars. No complaints there.......I still would recommend an S for many reasons and I continue to race it in SCCA, PCA, PBOC, and any other venue I can run in.

Mark

[Andy Bettencourt]

Doesn't cam timing have to remain stock (D.1.F page 5 of the ITCS) UNLESS you deck the head (D.1.L page 6 of the ITCS)? If you deck the head you MAY return cam timing to stock by the use of an offset key on the crankshaft...

[Zneed4speed]

RL, as you probably know, Roebling is pretty "track condition" dependent. I'm down into the high 25s in the TR8, but that is usually in the morning session. Afternoons when it is hot, 26s and low 27s is usually the best I can do (and I have a lot of development to do as well)
Jeff
[/b]

Hey Jeff,
This was my first time running Roebling in the summer, and it was slick Mark, but it was slick for everybody. While I don't want to debate physics, I'd venture a guess that "slick" would affect my 2850(I'm over that) pounds more than say K.V.s 2375 pound Miata?.
I ran 1:26s to the leaders 1:22s. Mike Vansteenburg beat all the ITS cars Saturday in his ITA miata.

I left some time on the table and with more work and money I'll get to the front, the 16V weight just seems high.

[wpspeedracer]

Doesn't cam timing have to remain stock (D.1.F page 5 of the ITCS) UNLESS you deck the head (D.1.L page 6 of the ITCS)? If you deck the head you MAY return cam timing to stock by the use of an offset key on the crankshaft...
[/b]

Good point, and lucky for me I've done neither.....I haven't decked the head or messed around with the timming. As a matter of fact, I'm still running on the same motor from the original street car with only a new set of bearings and a valve job we did 2 1/2 years and probably 30 races ago - she's getting tired.....time for a refresh this fall.
I have a new head from Higgs ready and the block has been on the engine stand now for over a year - new pistons, all kinds of stuff I've acquired over time. Just need to build the motor.

Mark

[Zneed4speed]

The 944S fits the process very well - using very 'Posrche' like IT gain numbers - ie: minimal. The results for top prep and top driven cars up here (oh ya - don't forget Russ Jones who has a win as well in the NARRC) fully support the current weight. All 3 have JME power. Actually, these 3 944S drivers have combined for 8 wins in 10 events this season...and the other 2 had wet conditions. Heck - if we used on track data as a primary driver of weights, you would be looking some 'gain' votes from NER players.

You won't see a reduction on that car - or any car that has been through the process...in theory, the 8V and the 16V should be equal on the track.
[/b]

Don't forget Russ's 3rd the day before.
"On track data" probably isn't used because of the many variables, while the races you mention had good fields they didn't always have the same players. The earlier comment about Kip being fast at Road Atlanta while true he was still 5 seconds over the ITS record, and yes weather may have affected that.

Those guys aren't the only ones with JME products.
We are SEDIV players wanting a decrease.

Andy, I first thought your last sentence was a bit strong until I read it a couple of times.
The "...in theory." tones it down, but if the comma was before "...in theory," it changes it a great deal for me.

Doesn't cam timing have to remain stock (D.1.F page 5 of the ITCS) UNLESS you deck the head (D.1.L page 6 of the ITCS)? If you deck the head you MAY return cam timing to stock by the use of an offset key on the crankshaft...
[/b]

While I haven't played with this IIRC, the 16V has a stock range for adjustment of the cam timing making it legal.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy, I first thought your last sentence was a bit strong until I read it a couple of times.
The "...in theory." tones it down, but if the comma was before "...in theory," it changes it a great deal for me.[/b]

Unfortunatley, I might have to change it back... That 'in theory was attached to teh 8V vs. 16V example. If a car has been through the 'process', there are NO plans to make a change (or comp adjustment) to it. Having said that, PCA's could be used provided there is someting drastically wrong - like a major tilt in the competitive balance of a class due to an ITAC/CRB screw up.

While I haven't played with this IIRC, the 16V has a stock range for adjustment of the cam timing making it legal. [/b]

Lucky dog!

[JeffYoung]

Seems to me the recent go around on weights really helped the 8v Porsche, which needed it, and the 16v is proving it is competitive at 2850. Glad to see a lot more 944s and 924s out this there. This is a direct benefit of the work the ITAC did to level the playing field in ITS.

RL, Mike V and Kip V in their Miatas have cleaned up at Roebling for years (and CMP). Mike V has won OVERALL races in his ITA Miata against very good ITS cars (Kent Thompson, et. al.). Roebling is a track made for Miatas -- total momentum track, very little up and down or start and stop (which requires torque) and gets slick and greasy and hurts FWD and high hp RWD cars a lot as the day goes on.

Do you know if Kip is bringing to the 944s to the ARRC? Don't know if Wittel and KThomas will be there with teh orange BMW but that (944s v. orange 325is) is a battle I would LOVE to see.

By the way, Mark, THIRTY FIVE ITS cars at Daytona in two weeks. That is amazing. Near SM proportions.

[DavidM]

All I know is that Kip won the ITS race at Road Atlanta last weekend by a mile. Tony Burdett in a BMW (yea, the same one that is now a couple feet shorter), Chris Newberry in a 240SX, and another car were in a train for second, but Kip was gone. I got passed by Kip going down the back straight and it was the next lap going into 10 before the other three caught me.

David

[dspillrat]

Kip V. Was impressive at Road Atlanta....but wasn't really pushed by anyone.
That car is quite clean, and well kept. Looking at all that ballast was a worrisome in my mind 3stacks of 75-90 pounds chunks of lead in the floor...lotta weight.

John Williams had couple of 1:41s this past weekend, not bad for 95 degree weather.

Hope they both show for the ARRC in November, will be quite the show.

I think the 944s has more.....


David Spillman