Just wondering.....

[ddewhurst]

***???? I don't follow. What boy? Someone local?***

It was national news. I presumed you were tied in with Strong Investments head quartered in Menomonee Falls, WI. Richard Strong the founder screwed all the ethics involved with investments, can't play in the game any longer, was FORCED to sell his investment company (Wells Fargo now IIRC) & he payed several million dollars in fines for something like a $600,000 profit. He sure beat the system.

[BobsAuto]

Got involved in a conversation with a young man who is definately not a racing knowledgable person but likes to think he has ideas for the future and it was amazing how he thought that racing would go completely gas free within 10 years given the technology of electronics and hybrids and electric motors and stuff. I really was stunned at the comment and tried to imagine a GT1, IT, or even a Nextel Cup race with the whine of electric motors. How boring is that???? :huh: Oh, did I miss the race????

[tom_sprecher]

I see. I have heard of Strong Funds but I work for a company that manufactures industrial equipment.

[instigator]

Hey Tom could you look this up for me since the increase in fuel prices have trippled can you show were the price of crude oil has done the same? Could you show me were the cost of refinig this product has done the same as well. If any one else can show me were these number exist I have no complant ,but right now I can not find any of these numbers. If in the past profits were sufficant for these companys why do they all choose to raise prices so high now. As for demand it has a constant since the early 1990's. Our problem falls on polictical powers in office at this time that give these companies the abilty to get away with price guaging. Remember every penny increase is 1.2 billon dollars out of our economy and into the goverment pocket in revenew collection to help pay for there, "our", expenses. I think we can all say who or why the prices of gas is so high after a little reasearch is done.

[lateapex911]

..... since the increase in fuel prices have trippled....... [/b]

Tripled?? As from the last point of stability? I was paying $2.20, now I'm paying about $3.20. Most places are about $3. When was the last time we paid $1??

Long time ago, different conditions.

[Chris Wire]

Got involved in a conversation with a young man who is definately not a racing knowledgable person but likes to think he has ideas for the future and it was amazing how he thought that racing would go completely gas free within 10 years given the technology of electronics and hybrids and electric motors and stuff. I really was stunned at the comment and tried to imagine a GT1, IT, or even a Nextel Cup race with the whine of electric motors. How boring is that???? :huh: Oh, did I miss the race????
[/b]

Interesting you should mention that. Max Mosely has made comments recently that F1 should be leading the way in "green" technology, not just racing technology.

One of the examples given was to make use of the tremendous braking forces generated in F1 to "charge" and electrical system that could then be used by the driver as a "power-to-pass" button, similar to what is used in Champ Car.

I think from the outside that the idea has merit, in part because anything that increases the potential for on-track passing in F1 deserves a look, and also because you don't have to mess with the glorious sound of a 19,000 rpm, screaming engine to do it.

Now as to whether or not a "gas-free" series would fly or not, I don't know but I doubt it.

[Chris Wire]

Hey Tom could you look this up for me since the increase in fuel prices have trippled can you show were the price of crude oil has done the same? Could you show me were the cost of refinig this product has done the same as well. If any one else can show me were these number exist I have no complant ,but right now I can not find any of these numbers. If in the past profits were sufficant for these companys why do they all choose to raise prices so high now. As for demand it has a constant since the early 1990's. Our problem falls on polictical powers in office at this time that give these companies the abilty to get away with price guaging. Remember every penny increase is 1.2 billon dollars out of our economy and into the goverment pocket in revenew collection to help pay for there, "our", expenses. I think we can all say who or why the prices of gas is so high after a little reasearch is done.
[/b]

instigator,

You seem to want to assign the blame for rising gas prices solely to the gas companies, and to a lesser degree the federal government. On the second part I will somewhat agree, but probably not for the reasons you would expect.

As with any company designed to make a profit, especially a publicly traded one, when costs of raw materials go up, the price of the final product must go up accordingly, if the company is going to continue to make a profit for its owner/shareholders. Two things have already been shown: a) that the percentage of profit for "Big Oil" is well within and likely below that of most major corporations; and government makes far more per gallon of gas than than Big Oil.

As I mentioned earlier, there are market forces at work that you either don't want to acknowledge, or don't believe they are factors. First, OPEC is a cartel, plain and simple. They would be illegal if they operated in this country, as they price fix between member states, and raise and lower production levels on a whim to achieve their goals. If American companies colluded together in the same fashion they would be in violation of anti-trust laws, something that OPEC nations only laugh at.

Second, plain old capitalism operates by the law of supply and demand. Ten years ago we did not have to deal with increased demand from exploding development in China and India. As these countries gear up their economies and consume more oil, that leaves the rest of us fighting just to keep our access to the supply we need for ours. Demand goes up, supply gets tighter, and prices go up accordingly. Throw in a couple of psycho heads of state, like Hugo Socialist Chavez, Mahmoud Amadinejad Hitler, and Kim Jong Il Tempered, and there is far more instability world-wide than there used to be. One wacko world leader is all those who speculate in oil futures needs to bid up the price of crude. We are dealing with three.

Thirdly, you commented that oil demand has been a constant since the 1990s. As I just showed you that is false. Even in this country, you have to agree that the sheer number of cars on the road is always increasing, thus domestic demand for gasoline cannot remain the same. Now we haven't built a new oil refinery in over 30 years. If demand is up, yet our capacity to refine oil is constant, that means that our existing refineries are always running at max capacity. Now throw in a couple of ill-timed, badly located hurricanes, which damaged refineries all along the Gulf Coast, now there is a disruption in supply. Remember, supply goes down, price goes up. We are still not back to pre-Katrina refining capacity.

Thirdly and-a-half, all of the "boutique" fuels that government says we must have at various times during the year, in varying locations cause disruption in supply, since the refineries have to dump what's left of the current inventory, and retool for the season's next fuel. I ask, "Do we really need 50+ types of fuel to supply America's motoring public?". I seriously doubt it. Thank your local environmentalist loonie for that one.

Fourth, we are buying way more oil for our economy than we should be. As a world superpower, we should be a clear leader in research, location, and retrieval of oil. We as a country are as oil rich as any country on earth, I believe. ANWAR in Alaska, the Gulf Coast, and exploration in the Northwest are all potentially huge quantities of oil just waiting to be cultivated. Instead, the "greenies" have our politicians so scared to vote to allow new drilling, for fear that they will be labeled an "enemy of the environment". And don't even bother to mention nuclear power. That sends the envirowackos off the charts!

The final fallacy is that it's the job of the United States government to regulate gas prices. I'm sorry to say this, but the government's only job is to protect you, me and the Constitution. American's have become far too reliant on our government to regulate everything, from gas prices, to healthcare, college tuition and more. If there was a better understanding in this country of the basics of capitalism, and the realities of what our government is really supposed to do for us, we would be far better off than we are now.

Lastly, I would like to ask a question. Do you know any other industry that is forced to reinvest millions in profits to research alternative technologies that, once perfected, could put that industry out of business?

[tom_sprecher]

Chris,

I don't know what you do for a living but you deserve an A+ on your last post. It's nice to see others who carefully reseach a subject and then reflect on the same by submitting factual and concise posts. Well done.


instigator,

I have provided enough links to information on this subject. In addition, I feel that what some people choose to believe can not be changed, irregardless of the overwelming evidence provided, and it is a waste of my time to try. Do your homework and then you can be the judge.

[Chris Wire]

Chris,

I don't know what you do for a living but you deserve an A+ on your last post. It's nice to see others who carefully reseach a subject and then reflect on the same by submitting factual and concise posts. Well done.
[/b]

Thanks, Tom. My fingers are tired, but I think it was worth it.

[instigator]

You made several good pionts. I have to say that all I am basing my point is that of when crude prices were for that of a $1 pergallon. Those prices for abarrel of crude have not doubled yet. I realize that every thing has gone up in price but very clearly price guaging is being allowed.Another administration tried this in the late 80's and was quickly removed and fuel prices were brought back under control. That same adminstration came back into power and guess what fuel goes back up and keeps on going up until that admistration is removed from power.

Yes ther are more cars on the road and consumption is up ,but cost in manufacturing the product has not. Cost of product is the onlything that has changed. So with that said I understand that a $1 per gallon can not happen ,but my numbers say $1.82 is what the cost should be and if you do it your way $2.10 is what it should be at the profit rate being made during the $1 pergallon eara. Icanot find a reason for $3 per gallon
now the oil companys have lost a big tax break. So ther big profits now mean more tax revenew. Win ,Win for both parties involved, and a lose lose status for the economy and stander of living america had enjoyed and by the way has any body refigured what poverty level income is justified at sacry numbers most public saftey workers now fallen in that income braket.


Jut playing deveils advocate and making another piont to look at and making chat.


Kurt Jackson

[Chris Wire]

You made several good pionts. I have to say that all I am basing my point is that of when crude prices were for that of a $1 pergallon. Those prices for abarrel of crude have not doubled yet. I realize that every thing has gone up in price but very clearly price guaging is being allowed.Another administration tried this in the late 80's and was quickly removed and fuel prices were brought back under control. That same adminstration came back into power and guess what fuel goes back up and keeps on going up until that admistration is removed from power.

Yes ther are more cars on the road and consumption is up ,but cost in manufacturing the product has not. Cost of product is the onlything that has changed. So with that said I understand that a $1 per gallon can not happen ,but my numbers say $1.82 is what the cost should be and if you do it your way $2.10 is what it should be at the profit rate being made during the $1 pergallon eara. Icanot find a reason for $3 per gallon
now the oil companys have lost a big tax break. So ther big profits now mean more tax revenew. Win ,Win for both parties involved, and a lose lose status for the economy and stander of living america had enjoyed and by the way has any body refigured what poverty level income is justified at sacry numbers most public saftey workers now fallen in that income braket.
Jut playing deveils advocate and making another piont to look at and making chat.
Kurt Jackson
[/b]

Kurt,

You lost me there, but here is some more info to ponder.

Oil info

Basically, as late as Jan '98 light crude was trading at $15.89 / bbl. It had more than doubled to $36 / bbl before President Bush was even elected in Nov. '00. And shortly after he took office it was back to trading below $24 / bbl. How much were you paying for regular unleaded in 1998? Compare that to the current price of over $72 / bbl. That is nearly a 400% increase in 8 years. By all rights, that same 400% increase applied to the retail price of gas would put it well over $4 per gallon.

I don't think you really believe yourself when you say that "...the cost of product is the only thing that has changed.", and " cost in manufacturing the product has not". How is it that in the last ten years, no costs to the oil companies have risen except the price of crude oil? Don't you think that their labor costs have gone up? How about the costs of exploration? The costs of securing drilling rights? The costs of importing, refining, and transporting more and more foreign-sourced oil? The costs of maintaining equipment and increasing their level of technology? How about the costs of reinvesting in research and development of alternative fuel technologies? Can you justify somehow that none of their normal costs of doing business, like overhead, healthcare, insurance, and salaries have risen in 10 years? If so, then I want to live in their vacuum!

Well after further searching, I did find some data for premium unleaded (less taxes) from prior to 1998 until present.

Gas price history

If I knew how, I would love to overlay the two charts here to better visualize the effect of crude prices on the final retail product. BTW, if you want to feel better, just take a look at what all of Europe is paying compared to what we pay ($7.28 per in the Netherlands. Whew!)

There is plenty of great information on this site. Much too much to disseminate here, but check it out for yourselves.

More oil info than you can stand!

[ddewhurst]

***How about the costs of exploration?***

Chris, is this the cost point where the political contributions folw to ?

Electric race cars............. Hmmmm, have any of you attended a race live when the Indy turbine cars raced. swisssssh, no hearing loss from the car engine noise. Sorry for the tangent, now back to the cost of gas.

[Chris Wire]

***How about the costs of exploration?***

Chris, is this the cost point where the political contributions folw to ?

Electric race cars............. Hmmmm, have any of you attended a race live when the Indy turbine cars raced. swisssssh, no hearing loss from the car engine noise. Sorry for the tangent, now back to the cost of gas.
[/b]

The political part of this problem could be an entire thread unto itself.

Suffice it to say, oil companies are going to support politicians who support them. Environmentalists are going to support politicians who help to further their cause. It's just the way the system works.

Don't be surprised to find out that oil companies will contribute to candidates on both sides of the isle.

My only problem with the political side of it is with disingenuous people who complain about our dependence on foreign oil and our energy independence, and then turn around and obstruct every attempt we make to try to cure the problem.

[cherokee]

Not one of the indy races but I did go to unlimited hydroplane races before they became woosh boats, you can't beat the sound of a big ole piston engine....it is just magic.

The political part of this problem could be an entire thread unto itself.

Suffice it to say, oil companies are going to support politicians who support them. Environmentalists are going to support politicians who help to further their cause. It's just the way the system works.

Don't be surprised to find out that oil companies will contribute to candidates on both sides of the isle.

My only problem with the political side of it is with disingenuous people who complain about our dependence on foreign oil and our energy independence, and then turn around and obstruct every attempt we make to try to cure the problem.
[/b]

I bolded this part as it is the real problem here. When things get political is when things get messy and nothing gets done. We could stop using over seas oil if we could drill some holes. We can do it, we can do it without making the landscape a wasteland. If you want to gripe about gas prices look at the folks against the US drilling for more oil here at home.

[AntonioGG]

We could stop using over seas oil if we could drill some holes. We can do it, we can do it without making the landscape a wasteland. If you want to gripe about gas prices look at the folks against the US drilling for more oil here at home.
[/b]

We could also achieve that goal by other means: conservation, efficiency, alternative fuel. Look at Brazil. They produce enough ethanol to not need to import any oil. In fact they export ethanol. We'd get Brazilian ethanol cheap if there weren't huge tariffs against it. Can you imagine if we didn't need any oil from some of these OPEC countries? Then you might see real foreign policy instead of dancing around.

Continuing exploration in wildlife refuges and other areas is a short term solution. You can't blame people for not wanting to allow drilling in certain areas right? It can be done without turning a landscape into a wasteland...as long as nobody drinks while piloting their boat.




I think the internal combustion engine is far from going extinct. I'd venture to say that it won't happen in any of our lifetimes. The difference is what will go into the engines, the efficiency of the whole vehicle (weight, space, etc.). I don't have a problem with trucks that are really used (towing, farmers, hauling, etc.)...I have a problem when they're not used! I like Greg Amy's post on his economic analysis as far a his choice of what to drive and the real costs to get there. I did the same thing. I refuse to drive a big truck every day because I don't like it...it's not comfortable or fun for me not to mention $60 fill-ups a week vs. $30 every two weeks. I owned a truck and a daily driver for a few years but that is not economical either. I ended up paying someone to haul my car on their two car trailer...worked economically for me and now I don't even have to worry about that aspect of a race weekend! Right now I feel terrible for those whose living depends on driving a truck...they don't have a choice but soccer moms do.

OK electric stuff...any of you do RC stuff in a previous life or maybe still do it? Remember when 1200mAh NiCads were the hot shstuff? 4 minute mains or maybe longer if you geared it right. I was just reading an article on new batteries and new brushless motors. Li-poly 14.8V batteries with peak current capabilities of 75A, combined with brushless motors will give you 17-19min of run time in an offroad race! 0-50mph (real not scale) in about 3 seconds. Can you say max torque at zero RPM? Keep your mind open...it doesn't all have to be bad you know? Look at the new hybrid GS450h from Lexus. I think soon you'll see sports cars with improved performance when you need it (Ford diesel/electric hybrid sports compact car), and improved mileage when you don't. I guess I'm in the tech business and I'm an optimist. I prefer to dream about a scaled-up version of an RC car with those performance numbers rather than complain about the situation. As far as the sound...my idea is to put speakers on the outside of the car where the tailpipes would go...and I'd pipe in some Ferrari Flat-12 sounds from a 312PB. heheheh

OK now to answer the orginal post...around here (Austin, TX) I get it for ~$2.85 regular and $3.05 premium. It's cheaper if you go to the lower income side of town which is interesting in and of itself (ever priced diesel on the highway (big trucks) vs. diesel on a nice area (diesel Benzes and Audis)?)

I'll add one more bit...any of you driven from Hallet back to your state and compared the fuel prices? It's much cheaper in OK than anywhere in Texas. I asked around and was told the reason is they have many small independent refineries in Oklahoma. Lower tranport costs, no big business overhead, no stock holders to share profits with.

[BobsAuto]

Well, since I have started this thread, gas rose, it fell, and now, in Loudon, it has hit it's all time high. The Beanstalk Store is at $3.14 for regular, Z-1 (which was one of the cheaper places) has hit $3.05. You can still get gas in some places in Concord for $2.96. I have not gone north this week to see what Speedway and the Shell station are but I would guess over $2.96.
C'est la vie. Just wish I could get rid of my gas guzzler so I could fix my little truck.....

[BobsAuto]

It's been a while since anyone posted here....but thought that I'd let you all know that suddenly, after the RAL weekend, most gas prices dropped an average of $.10 a gallon up here in Loudon with the Beanstalk going down from $2.89 to $2.75 ($.14!!!!!). That in itself is amazing as they are consistently the highest in Loudon and for two days were the lowest. Anyone else seeing a downward trend?

[RacerBill]

Sunoco station just off I71 in Grove City (south of Columbus, OH) is at $2.46. With a Sunoco card, that's $2.44!

Most other stations in the area are at $2.54

Diesel is still up around $3.00

[BobsAuto]

$2.46??????Holy .........well you know....Too bad we couldn't ALL have it that cheap. I thought WE were doing good.

[Chris Wire]

$2.46??????Holy .........well you know....Too bad we couldn't ALL have it that cheap. I thought WE were doing good.
[/b]

Don't worry, you may yet get there. This from cnnmoney.com.

Industry analyst sees prices between $2 and $2.50 by Thanksgiving.
August 30 2006: 6:26 PM EDT


NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The recent drop in prices at the pump could pick up steam, driving gasoline sharply lower in coming months.

"I'd say $2 to $2.50," said Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service. "Once you get past Sept. 15, it's really a downhill game."

Kloza said so far the average cost of a gallon of gas peaked this year at $3.036 on Aug. 10 and has come down largely thanks to diminishing hurricane fears.

"There's just nothing happening in the tropics, and the market had priced in all sorts of calamities," he said.

The motorist organization AAA reported a nationwide average of $2.82 Tuesday, the lowest since April 20. Online gasoline price survey site Gasbuddy.com shows Wednesday's national average at $2.80.

Gee, and I thought it was all George Bush's fault! Maybe Karl Rove is conspiring to lower the gas prices before the November elections......

[jonlovitz] Yeah, that's the ticket! [/jonlovitz]