Fuel test - what will pass?

[MMiskoe]

Because I wanted to know, I asked the tech guys to test some fuel for me at the last race. I had some pump gas, some race fuel (Powermist TWS) - they all failed.

The pump gas I thougth would be questionable since the pump sticker says it has 10% ethanol in it.

I really had no intention of turning this into a congressional hearing, but when the Powermist failed, it left me wondering What can you run? I am hoping others have had fuel tested and found it to be OK.

I'm a little hesistant to even post this because what I got from the testing is that there are no fuels out there that pass, so what difference does it make, should my run group get tested, we're all going to fail (we can't all go to the back of the pack).

Thanks
Matt

[JamesB]

Actually I been wondering myself what would happen. Since the move away from MTBE to Ethenol (E10) in most states already. Are the testing systems used able to understand that since its compound would be different from your 93 octane MTBE based gasoline.

[Conover]

Aren't they just checking Specific gravity? And if so, couldn't they just adjust their numbers to reflect the values of modern fuels?

[JamesB]

I believe that is the issue since ethenol instead of MTBE as the addative changes the result of the test.

[m glassburner]

So with that said....what does pass ?? I run nothing but super-unleaded...Why won't that pass?

[x-ring]

They aren't checking specific gravity, they're checking dielectric constant, along with two (soon to be one?) reagent tests for oxygenates.

MTBE and Ethanol are oxidizing agents that will both cause the fuel to fail. In parts of New Mexico, where I live, fuel is only oxygenated November through February. In Colorado, where I often race, fuel is oxygenated year 'round.

Fuel is rarely tested at regionals in RMDiv.

FWIW.

ON EDIT: M Glassburner, I'm chief of tech this weekend for a N/N in Pueblo, Co. I'll take a bottle of un-oxygenated (AFAIK) NM pump super up there with me and test it. I'll also buy a few ounces of Colorado pump super, which I believe to be oxygenated, and test it. I'll bring the results back with me and post them, along with information, if it's on the pump, about what they may have added.

[RSTPerformance]

They aren't checking specific gravity, they're checking dielectric constant, along with two (soon to be one?) reagent tests for oxygenates.

MTBE and Ethanol are oxidizing agents that will both cause the fuel to fail. [/b]

If we (SCCA) get to a point where we have to purchase gas at the track (Not at a local gas station), I am done... Thier has to be a point when we say enough is enough. How did we ever race in the 80's (thats as far back as I go) without the safety equipment, fuel tests, etc. of todays world?

Tech- be ready my gas is about to get tested at every event.

Matt, what station did you get the gas at in Concord?

Raymond

[m glassburner]

That's a comforting thought x-ring...But not everybody takes the time and effort as you do thanks for your effort really

[cherokee]

Perhaps I am a little slow here, but how much bennifit is there to running "special" gas in what is for what is in essance a "stock" engine. We are not talking about 14:1 motors with crazy cams and such here. Would it realy be worth it.

I run regular unleaded and if it comes to that I will have to buy $6 or whatever per Gal. at the track (heck it is getting close to that at anyway) , at the moment I am thinking along with Raymond where is the fun in that.

[x-ring]

OK, first a disclaimer: I’m not the divisional fuel expert; I’m the administrator of tech. We have a fuel expert, but I’m virtually certain she never reads this forum.

If we (SCCA) get to a point where we have to purchase gas at the track (Not at a local gas station), I am done... Thier has to be a point when we say enough is enough. How did we ever race in the 80's (thats as far back as I go) without the safety equipment, fuel tests, etc. of todays world?
[/b]

As I understand it, the reason fuel testing was instituted is that some racers started adding aggressive oxygenates to their fuel, in search of power, mostly in the classes with tightly controlled engines. Hey, if you can get 8 HP in a FC (as an example), you’re that much up on everyone else. Also, $40/gallon for juiced fuel is way cheaper than a $15K for a top of the line Ford Pinto engine. (I’m not banging on FC here; it’s just an example. Save the flames, guys.) Some of the additives were so toxic that the exhaust was making grid and corner workers sick. The club decided this had no place in club racing, and here we are today. The problem is that the inexpensive tests done for additives are unable to differentiate between MTBE and propylene oxide or paradioxane. No one believes that a few percent MTBE or ethanol in your fuel is going to harm anyone any more than straight gasoline exhaust fumes. Also, though, no one wants to spend the thousands of dollars for sophisticated testing equipment (and to hire lab technicians to operate it) to separate out common air-quality oxygenates from the other additives.

Tech- be ready my gas is about to get tested at every event.
[/b]

No sweat, the tests cost us a couple of bucks and it takes two minutes. Bring it on, but please do it before impound (we’re a little busy then)!

Matt, what station did you get the gas at in Concord?
[/b]

Is it common for NE states to adulterate their gasoline in search of clean air? Just curious.

(I'll stop editing when I learn how to type.)

[jcmotorsports]

The Sunoco Ultra 93 that I use has passed at all the Nationals that I have attended this year. I believe the Black reagent part of the fuel test is being eliminated for next season( or atleast up for vote). That is the portion that we have run into problems with in the past.

[RSTPerformance]

Ty-

Thanks for making an effort out in your region... It does make a difference. I will be interested to see if "normal" pump gas passes the tests.

Raymond

[MMiskoe]

Raymond:

It was the Shell station 1/4 mile south on 106.

I forget if the pump had the 10% ethanol sticker on it, I am pretty sure it did. Even if it didn't have the sticker, since the stuff all goes through the same pipe on its way to the tank truck I assume it was included. I don't know if we can buy any fuel at the pump w/o it. I do know some places are better about indicating what is in there.

What also bothers me about it is that the Powermist failed. That stuff is not anything like what you get at the pump. It smells like paint thinner, looks like windex and evaporates faster than anything I've ever worked with. This stuff is a pure race fuel and the TWS is supposed to be SCCA OK'd. Who's to say what the track $ells is going to pass either?

On one hand if nothing is going to pass, then we might as well take advantage of things that will make it fail and provide some benefit. (there's no reason to be trustworthy if no one trusts you)

On the other hand nitromethane is a pain to deal with and we're racing for bowling trophies.

[Z3_GoCar]

Would you please also test 100LL Av gas? I'd be interested in the results for that as that's where the MTBE was first used. I'm about ready to perform first fire and will be heading out to procure some "not for street use" fuel. :P

Perhaps I am a little slow here, but how much bennifit is there to running "special" gas in what is for what is in essance a "stock" engine. We are not talking about 14:1 motors with crazy cams and such here. Would it realy be worth it.

I run regular unleaded and if it comes to that I will have to buy $6 or whatever per Gal. at the track (heck it is getting close to that at anyway) , at the moment I am thinking along with Raymond where is the fun in that.
[/b]

That'd be great if my motor wasn't already at 10:1 stock, but with it blue-printed and probably more like 10.5:1, besides stock it already calls out for 98RON, or 93 RON+MON/2. So the plain stuff will be down on power.

James

[JimLill]

That'd be great if my motor wasn't already at 10:1 stock, but with it blue-printed and probably more like 10.5:1, besides stock it already calls out for 98RON, or 93 RON+MON/2. So the plain stuff will be down on power.
[/b]

Keep in mind that high octane starts to burn later/slower thus preventing pre-ignition (knocking)... Does your motor have a knock-sensor? You'll have less power due to pre-ignition but even less if your motors has controls to prevent knocking... or hammered rods if it does not. 10.5:1 isn't so high in the latests/modern combustion chambers.

[x-ring]

Would you please also test 100LL Av gas? I'd be interested in the results for that as that's where the MTBE was first used. I'm about ready to perform first fire and will be heading out to procure some "not for street use" fuel.
James
[/b]

Um, sure. Bring 6 oz to the track Sunday. Our fuel expert will be there and I'll have her test it. Probably the quickest way there for you would be to fly into Denver, rent a car, drive south to Pueblo (~100 mi). The track entrance is west of Pueblo at US highway 50 and Pueblo Boulevard. Impound is right next to the paddock exit from the hot pit lane. Tech opens at 0700.

Seriously, Take a sample to any national race and ask the chief of tech, when he's not too busy, if he could test a sample for you. You're in SPDiv, no? Do you ever go to race in Phoenix? Take your fuel there and ask Chemical Ira. He's the fuel guru in SPDiv.

[Z3_GoCar]

Hey Ty,

Thanks for the pointer on where/when to get it tested. Yes So-Pac does travel to Phoenix on occasion. This weekend my freinds are doing a VARA race weekend out at Cal-Speedway. I wonder if they do fuel testing?? Anyway I know that one of my freinds who runs a FC with VARA runs AV-gas. It's probably not the cost of fuel at the track that's the racing killer, it's the cost of fuel getting to that track that I suspect will put the damper on how many races we'll do and yet the oil companies are in record profit making mode

James

[nlevine]

Keep in mind that high octane starts to burner later/slower thus preventing pre-ignition (knocking)... Does your motor have a knock-sensor? You'll have less power due to pre-ignition but even less if your motors has controls to prevent knocking... or hammered rods if it does not. 10.5:1 isn't so high in the latests/modern combustion chambers.
[/b]

..which is a problem I have with "track gas" at NHIS.. I forgot my gas can at home this past weekend and I figured that I would be able to buy some fuel at the track. I was expecting to pay through the nose for "regular" fuel, but all they were pumping last weekend was 112 octane leaded! Since I didn't know if the systems in my production-based, OBDII-electronics IT car would take kindly to leaded fuels, I passed and was fortunately able to "borrow" a couple of gallons of pump fuel from a friend.. If we're required to buy fuel at the track, can the track be required to sell us stuff that works in our cars?

-noam

[JimLill]

May be unrelated... last fall Sunoco failed to get GT100 to Watkins Glen... so all they had was leaded stuff... fortunately, the mini-mart in town had Sunoco 93.. better than 91 swill

[bldn10]

"Who's to say what the track $ells is going to pass either?"

That actually happens quite often.