Any Updates on Head and Neck Restraints from SCCA?

[lateapex911]

That's a very interesting point Dave.

I am trying to understand that as well as a few other points that are related.

Joe, and Arnie Kuhns are two of three mebers of the SCCA Saftey Commitee. I am unsure exactly what the safety commitee is charged with, and the limit, or power of their responsibility. It is obvious though, after researching a bit, and reading the notes in Fastrack, that they are involved in the recommendations that have resulted in harness and head restraint issues.

As you may well know, Arnie Kuhns is the President of SFI. SFI, for those who don't know, create, with the input of manufacturers, and other industry leaders and experts, standards that safety equipment must meet. Sanctioning bodies use those standards as minimums in order to conduct activities that are thought of by the court system as reponsibly safe, in an attempt to sheild themselves from liability.

(A standard of particular interest to many here is the 38.1 standard for head and neck restraint. SFI consulted with the designers of the HANS system to create the standard. There are those that find such a narrow consultation and the resulting standard that essentially mandates the basic architecture to be a bit "cozy" - clearly the standard promotes sales of the HANS system - and has as a side effect, the real world limitation of design of safer systems.)

I've asked for legal commentary to this point of a "liability sheild" before, and haven't had anyone add anything that was particularly illuminating, especially as to the mechanism of liability protection. But I digress....

I am very troubled that SCCA has decided to staff a commitee with the majority vote (2 of 3 members) that is so clearly biased. SFI makes it's money from manufacturers, and sanctioning bodies, and of course it is in it's best interst to promote SFI certified items and manufacturers. And of course, a retailer of safety devices has a very obvious vested interest as well.

That's not to say that Arnie or Joe are, or are not, purely serving for the safety of the sport with no concern to their personal profit, but that's nearly irrelevant when such obvious conflicts of interest exist, and the appearance of the impartiality of the commitee is long forgotten.

A side note as to the operation of the ITAC, the commitee I serve on. It is made up of, and this varies over time, 6 -9 members, and the makeup of the members seeks to result in a varied body with members from different IT classes and geographic regions. In cases where a specific member has a vested interest in the outcome of a vote, he is consulted for his opinion, but stays out of actual voting. It is rare that his vote would swing the tide one way or another in actuality as most votes aren't that close, but the mechanism exists to ensure commiteee impartiality. In a committe of 3, having 2 voters need to abstain effectively cancels the constructive effect of the commitee...the checks and balances just aren't there. It's hard for me to imagine many votes that the safety commitee could have that wouldn't be of particular interest to at least one, and probably two of it's 3 members. Now, I don't, as I said at the start, know the responsibilty, nor the operational mandates the commitee is charged with, or operates under, if any, so I can't say that the make up is a definate problem.

But..it sure looks that way, and that in itself is a huge problem.

[leggwork]

Does Joe have any direct relationship with Snell - on their board or something else? Just curious how he's involved with the process other than being a retailer of safety equipment.
[/b]

Hi Dave,
I don't know if he has any direct relationship with Snell or not. Here is a bio written last year over at www.justracing.com when he was a guest "speaker". The transcript is an interesting read also.
cheers,
bruce

<blockquote>JustRacing is proud to welcome national motorsports safety expert Joe Marko to JustRacing Seminars! Over the past 10 years Joe has spent a significant amount of time studying safety systems in motorsport applications - in particular harnessbelts, head and neck restraint systems, helmets, rollbars, and seats. He is the Schroth representative to SFI and works closely with the Technical Directors of NASCAR and IRL on harnessbelt specific issues. Joe and his crew also work directly with individual teams on the specification and installation of their harness installations. This season over half of the NASCAR NEXTEL Cup drivers and ChampCar drivers are wearing Schroth Harnessbelts.

Joe has been involved with numerous Dynamic Sled bed tests of Schroth Harnessbelts and HANS Head and Neck restraints at Delphi Automotive both privately and in conjunction with NASCAR and IRL. He authored the 2005 SCCA ProRacing GCRs and the 2006 BMW CCA Club Racing GCRs for harnessbelts and head and neck restraints. HMS has also conducted independent helmet/airbag testing at Delphi to address the questions of open vs. full-face helmets in cars with airbags.

He is currently one of six people that make up the SCCA National Safety Committee which advises the competition board on needed changes. In addition, Joe is the current National Safety Steward for BMW CCA Club Racing.

He has run seminars for SCCA (Pro and Club) on proper use and installation of harnessbelts, seats, and HANS and is a regular presenter to PCA, BMW CCA, and Quattro Club chapters around the country on topics of safety in racing and drivers schools.

A member of SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers), he holds a Bachelors degree from Siena College and a Masters Degree from Cornell University. He is Co-Chair of Boston Chapter BMW CCA Drivers Schools and a frequent instructor with BMW CCA, PCA, and Ferrari Club.

Joe is the owner of HMS Motorsport, Ltd., the US importer of Schroth Racing Restraints and RIMO karts. HMS Motorsport is the "Official Safety Equipment Supplier to BMW Club Racing" and an annual sponsor of numerous driving events put on by local BMW CCA regions.</blockquote>

[gsbaker]

...But..it sure looks that way, and that in itself is a huge problem.[/b]

Expect to see more of this. HANS claims over 100 dealers.

[gran racing]

Thanks Bruce - just wasn&#39;t sure what his background / involvement was.

[Wreckerboy]

Thanks for the background - it&#39;s very enlightening, almost frighteningly so.

I want to assume that based upon his professional chops, he does what comes naturally for a living and to contribute to the sport by doing the right thing based upon what he knows. I&#39;m not quite that naive anymore, however, and share the concerns voiced above about potential conflicts of interest. His BMW affiliation might also help, at least in part, to explain why BMWCCA adopted the SFI spec as well.

[leggwork]

contributing to the SFI decision in BMWCCA club racing (this is conjecture, not direct knowledge)
-the first death in BMW CCA club racing occurred last year - some believe an HNR would have helped
-insurers were threatening dramatic increases
-the 800 member CR organization has zero resources to be able to devote to assessing HNR&#39;s, so they chose a defensible standard

If Joe comes off as a hans cheerleader, a large part is because he has directly witnessed the before and after results.

That bio from justracing.com says that the SCCA safety committee is made up of 6 people. I don&#39;t know where to look up committee memberships to confirm.
cheers,
bruce
p.s. I don&#39;t own a Hans

Thanks for the background - it&#39;s very enlightening, almost frighteningly so.

I want to assume that based upon his professional chops, he does what comes naturally for a living and to contribute to the sport by doing the right thing based upon what he knows. I&#39;m not quite that naive anymore, however, and share the concerns voiced above about potential conflicts of interest. His BMW affiliation might also help, at least in part, to explain why BMWCCA adopted the SFI spec as well.
[/b]

[JimLill]

Club Racing Safety Committee
Joe Marko
Arnie Kuhns
Ed Ozment <-- husband of Terry Ozment, Director of Club Racing

[gprodracer]

Damn,
Where is Matt Weisberg when we need him!!!!???
Oh, that&#39;s right, he&#39;s debating the insurance money disparity in another thread!
Who says nepotism isn&#39;t alive and well in our club.
No offense to Joe, Bruce and others who are looking out for "our" welfare..
OK, since we notice these things, the question is.."What do (or can) we do about it?"
Jake, or anyone else, we&#39;ve fought for a choice up to this point..
What can we do next to get Topeka to listen? I will state again that I truly appreciate everyones input in this discussion, and I have learned 100% more than I would have by researching all this on my own. We need to keep writing those who we voted into power to express our opinion, as that is the only way we will be heard.
Keep on letting your feelings be known.
Answers or opinions?
Mark

[x-ring]

I was chatting with Brian Culbertson outside Tech-Majal one evening at the runoffs and he indicated that the CRB would be receptive to a H&N that was certified to a different standard, maybe ANSI as Kirk brought up some time ago (or was it ASTM?).

Anyone here have any dealings with that group?

[gsbaker]

I think it was ASTM. I have no idea how that organization works, but it&#39;s worth looking into if the CRB is receptive.

We find that most sanctioning bodies deal with SFI only because there is no alternative in some matters.

[JimLill]

I think it was ASTM. I have no idea how that organization works, but it&#39;s worth looking into if the CRB is receptive.

We find that most sanctioning bodies deal with SFI only because there is no alternative in some matters.
[/b]

a few possible alternatives here:

http://auto.ihs.com/news/newsletters/auto-...3-standards.htm

[dj10]

Hi Dave,
I don&#39;t know if he has any direct relationship with Snell or not. Here is a bio written last year over at www.justracing.com when he was a guest "speaker". The transcript is an interesting read also.
cheers,
bruce

<blockquote>JustRacing is proud to welcome national motorsports safety expert Joe Marko to JustRacing Seminars! Over the past 10 years Joe has spent a significant amount of time studying safety systems in motorsport applications - in particular harnessbelts, head and neck restraint systems, helmets, rollbars, and seats. He is the Schroth representative to SFI and works closely with the Technical Directors of NASCAR and IRL on harnessbelt specific issues. Joe and his crew also work directly with individual teams on the specification and installation of their harness installations. This season over half of the NASCAR NEXTEL Cup drivers and ChampCar drivers are wearing Schroth Harnessbelts.

Joe has been involved with numerous Dynamic Sled bed tests of Schroth Harnessbelts and HANS Head and Neck restraints at Delphi Automotive both privately and in conjunction with NASCAR and IRL. He authored the 2005 SCCA ProRacing GCRs and the 2006 BMW CCA Club Racing GCRs for harnessbelts and head and neck restraints. HMS has also conducted independent helmet/airbag testing at Delphi to address the questions of open vs. full-face helmets in cars with airbags.

He is currently one of six people that make up the SCCA National Safety Committee which advises the competition board on needed changes. In addition, Joe is the current National Safety Steward for BMW CCA Club Racing.

He has run seminars for SCCA (Pro and Club) on proper use and installation of harnessbelts, seats, and HANS and is a regular presenter to PCA, BMW CCA, and Quattro Club chapters around the country on topics of safety in racing and drivers schools.

A member of SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers), he holds a Bachelors degree from Siena College and a Masters Degree from Cornell University. He is Co-Chair of Boston Chapter BMW CCA Drivers Schools and a frequent instructor with BMW CCA, PCA, and Ferrari Club.

Joe is the owner of HMS Motorsport, Ltd., the US importer of Schroth Racing Restraints and RIMO karts. HMS Motorsport is the "Official Safety Equipment Supplier to BMW Club Racing" and an annual sponsor of numerous driving events put on by local BMW CCA regions.</blockquote>[/b]

Hell I want to hear from Bill Simpson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[leggwork]

I was just looking at our region&#39;s 2007 race schedule and they also had a link to the February National Convention schedule.
http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/Fil...nvSchedule.pdf

On Friday of the program, there is a session titled "SFI Certification Program for Solo and Club Racing"

Solo?? that should start some rumors

cheers,
bruce

[leggwork]

I spoke to our local Solo/TT safety guy and he thinks it is related to allowing SFI certified helmets in Solo.
cheers,
bruce

I was just looking at our region&#39;s 2007 race schedule and they also had a link to the February National Convention schedule.
http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/Fil...nvSchedule.pdf

On Friday of the program, there is a session titled "SFI Certification Program for Solo and Club Racing"

Solo?? that should start some rumors

cheers,
bruce
[/b]

[Chris Wire]

In light of the recent post by gsbaker with 2 new ISAAC testimonials, do we have any more rumblings from the CRB or BOD regarding the inclusion/exclusion of specific H&N devices? I haven&#39;t seen anything, which may be a good thing!

(Besides, you can&#39;t just let a 19 page thread die ya know!)

[gsbaker]

Yeah, never let a good thread die.

We have heard nothing on the subject, which seems to have taken a breather. I suspect the developments subsequent to last year&#39;s BOD vote (SAE publications and SFI&#39;s meeting at PRI) lessen the appeal of an SFI-only mandate.

The rumor mill is always active, but that&#39;s nothing new.

For the record, that other thread was intended as a friendly reminder; I apologize if it comes across as though we are tooting our horn.