Any Updates on Head and Neck Restraints from SCCA?

[Daryl DeArman]

James, you have a private message--don't want to hijack thread.

[gsbaker]

"Raymond....BTW is that how you debate things, call people names and yell at them to stop presenting their side because you don't agree w/it "

Absolutely the funniest line you've ever typed...
Mr. Kettle, Mr. Pot here...Two words for you..You're black!

On a more serious note, I have no preference here, however has anyone considered the fact that Mr. Hand had just rolled 8 times end over end, and 1 1/2 times sideways? Could we all agree that the "shaken and stirred" factor could have contributed to why he had a problem getting himself out, and may have gotten him caught up in the window net? (Knocking on wood now..) I have only had one hard impact, fell out the door of my car, and walked away like a drunken soldier. I believe that the impact affected the (very ungracefully) way I exited my car. I personally believe we should have a choice, but not that this one instance should cause us to make a final decision of one device over another. We all know that each wreck is completely different, with all sorts of variables.
I'm with Raymond, and others, write letters to change the written rules, and try to get them affordable for all of us!
Carry on, this is an extremely informative post! Thanks to all with the pertinent info!

With apologies to Raymond,

Mark " learning something new every day" Larson
CFR #164010
[/b]

Mark,

Good points.

The money issue is not trivial -- certainly not to amateur racers, which is one reason we value the feedback here at IT.com. Don't forget that we came out with the Isaac Link model last year and it proved to be the third-best product ever tested at the Wayne State Bioengineering Center lab, right behind the Isaac and the HANS.

No, the Link doesn't have much lateral support (just like the competition) but it retails for $295. If the SCCA came to us and proposed a group buy of, say, 5,000 units for members do you think we'd say "Yes"? Oh, hell yes.

[Knestis]

If anyone wants first-person comparisons between the Link and the "shocker" Isaac (sorry), I'll bet that Jeff Lawton will share. He has a Link and used the Isaac in the Golf at the SP 12 hours.

Also, for the good of the order, I relocated the pin mounts on my helmet before that race, having discovered that when I lowered the seat in the new car, it put the mirror up at the very end of the range of the damper motion. I originally mounted them when we had the seat on an aftermarket Recaro slider, that was designed to install an aftermarket shell at the stock seat height. We moved it down once last season, then again this spring, so I had to revisit the alignment.

The moral of the story is, if you opt for the Isaac, put your "neutral" head position in a truely neutral position. I'd use the glue answer if I did it again but in this case, I'm kind of thankful that I didn't...

K

[Bill Miller]

"Raymond....BTW is that how you debate things, call people names and yell at them to stop presenting their side because you don't agree w/it "

Absolutely the funniest line you've ever typed...
Mr. Kettle, Mr. Pot here...Two words for you..You're black!



Mark " learning something new every day" Larson
CFR #164010
[/b]

Mark,

Do you have some obsession w/ me that you follow me around the net? Get a life!

[Roy Dean]

No it isn't - because what says he had QR? There is no mention of that it isn't like they are standard HANS requires you to pay more to have their product be safe to reach full egress. And with gloves on unbuckling the HANS posts is not simple or one second per side. He had to try and remove his helmet.[/b]

Nobody said he had quick releases. But if he did, it wouldve been a no brainer. Sorry for my poor wording, but I meant it as though if he DIDN'T, he could still unbuckle the hans posts in 2 seconds. They ARE that simple to remove. I've timed myself doing it. 2 seconds for both sides.

My Isaac QR are second nature - I wouldn't forget to release them anymore than forgeting to release the harness and open the window net.
[/b]

Oh, thats right, I forgot... Only the Isaac releases are second nature. Nobody could EVER learn to use the hans quick releases or standard post release as second nature. You continue to say that you're not "bashing" the HANS, but here is more proof.

You claim that the Isaac is second nature (which it probably IS), yet the HANS can't possibly be second nature... Please. At least there are other Isaac supporters who can plainly admit that there isn't much difference between the two releases. They even admit that vehicle exit without touching the device is possible with a HANS, while it is NOT possible with the Isaac...

Is it possible that a HANS can impede a driver's exit from a burning car? You bet. Is the same true for an Isaac? If your answer is anything other than YES, then you are delusional....

[lateapex911]

Oh, thats right, I forgot... Only the Isaac releases are second nature. Nobody could EVER learn to use the hans quick releases or standard post release as second nature.

You claim that the Isaac is second nature (which it probably IS), yet the HANS can't possibly be second nature... Please. .....


Is it possible that a HANS can impede a driver's exit from a burning car? You bet. Is the same true for an Isaac? If your answer is anything other than YES, then you are delusional....
[/b]

I can't say what was in the original writers mind when he wrote what you are quoting Roy, but just to put the point in perspective....

Yes, both the HANS and the Isaac can be equipped with similar releases, and both users can use them in similar ways. But....with the Isaac, it is second nature, habititual behavior, because that is the only method practiced when leaving the car....every single time. When you practice something and repeat it ad nauseum, it becomes nearly muscle memory. In situations where your mind isn't formulating plans, and is just reacting, habit can be a good thing. You are more likely to do the same thing you always do.

That said, of course a HANS wearer can (and arguably should) get in the same practice. Drill drill drill.

But, from what I've seen in person at both Pro and ametuer levels, and On TV at all levels, there is very often a lot of "dorking around" wth the HANS when exiting the car.

Why? We're lazy? We think we spent the money and therefor our safety is covered? We don't think about the role WE play in the process? I dunno.....but I sometimes grab my stuff and strap in the car in the shop and watch the second hand on the wall clock as I time my exits. My car has double release nets, for instance. Why?? I won't have to dork with it as much when I'm upside down...I've got a release in the right position regardless. Practice makes better...assuming that perfection is unobtanium!

Point being that, I think that the Isaac forces you to do your homework, and thats actuallly a bit of a safety feature in and of itself.

Honestly, I'm of the camp that thinks performace is the bottom line. Prove you can get out of the car in a certain time period. Will it eliminate issues with crumpled cars upside down? Not entirely, but it will force drivers to practice egress, and to think about it.

[gsbaker]

Head and neck restraints are a lot like women, Roy. There are many drab ones, but every now and then you run across a hot blonde, or a hot brunette or a hot redhead -- and of course they all want you. They all have their pros and cons, but at least you have a choice.

TurboIce's complaint is that he may be stuck with a brunette when he wants a blonde. It's like someone has passed a law against excess happiness.

(I'm going to regret this post. )

It goes to a fundamental question of logic: What good comes of limiting drivers' access to high performance safety gear?

And forget the release issue. That is pure speculation from nonusers which is 100% counter to the field experience. If you posed that theory at a scientific conference you would be laughed out of the room. Every time a driver gets trapped in a car by their H&N restraint it is an SFI certified device. Get it?

Is it conceivable that a driver could somehow get trapped in his car by an Isaac system? I can't see how, but let's say it's possible. What happens then? Then the corner workers have to help him out -- just like Joey Hand.

[gprodracer]

Bill,

I compliment your sense of humor, and you say I'm "following you around the net". I drive in IT occaisionally, and I drive my GP car as often as I can. Hence I read both the websites. Not a real stretch there.

On to the topic. Thank you Greg, for keeping us club racers in mind about the $$ factor, as I have not yet been able to afford any head and neck device. I'm going to show my age, but does anyone remember Eric Dickerson, a running back in the NFL years ago? He wore every single piece of protective equipment he could strap on his body (lineman shoulder pads and neck collars, a helmet with every facemask bar allowed on it etc.) because he wanted every advantage to continue his career he could get.
I mention him because I am a believer in that philosophy. What we do as our "hobby" can, bottom line, get us killed. Brutal, but that is the fact. I try (on a very small budget) to get the very best of any safety equipment I can afford. At this time, the Hans is something I can not afford without it seriously impacting whether or not I can meet the requirements to keep my National license. I REALLY want to buy a system, but alot of us simply don't have $900 lying around.
Please don't use the "racing is expensive etc." argument, as expensive is a relative term. I am not a proponent of either device, as I don't have enough technical knowledge to judge them. I am however, a proponent of being allowed to have a choice in what I use. For example, IMO I think it is insane to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, but will defend a persons right to do so.
In OUR club, at this point a restraint system is not mandatory yet, but I would hate to see it become a rule with only one product being allowed. Please don't make this a "Spec HANS" club. Give us the pertinant facts, and let us make our own choice.
That's my time, but I'll be here all week.

Thanks Greg and all you others (you too Bill), for all your informative posts, because these boards are invaluable for the knowledge we gather!

Mark P. Larson
CFR #164010

[Bill Miller]

At this time, the Hans is something I can not afford without it seriously impacting whether or not I can meet the requirements to keep my National license. I REALLY want to buy a system, but alot of us simply don't have $900 lying around.
[/b]

You don't need to spend $900, you can get an ISSAC Link for under $300. That's less than the cost of two tires.

[gprodracer]

Bill,

Thanks, several have PM'd me about that option. I am just worried that I buy the ISSAC, and SCCA makes restraint systems manditory, but requires the SFI label, hence the "Spec Hans" statement. I would like to have the option of making my own (un)educated decision. I agree that the "Link" is an excellent alternative, with an affordable price.

[Bill Miller]

Mark,

If the SCCA goes that route, and will only let you wear an SFI-certified H&N device, or none at all, they'll have to DQ me at every race, or lose a member. They do not want the liability exposure that not letting someone make their own choice will give them, especially on an optional device.

[R2 Racing]

If the SCCA goes that route, and will only let you wear an SFI-certified H&N device, or none at all, they'll have to DQ me at every race, or lose a member.[/b]

Bill, don't think for a second that you'll be alone in doing so. If it ever comes to that, I think that's a story that will become quite common.



Cool thread & a good read.

[turboICE]

You continue to say that you're not "bashing" the HANS, but here is more proof.[/b]

Again with the selectiveness of what you want to read and respond to. As long as I am being forced to defend my desire to use ISAAC and to not use HANS - I am forced to point out the differences that concern me. As I said before if anyone wants to take that as bashing then so be it. Stop making me defend my desire and I will stop talking about HANS. (It is funny how you can use the observation of selected statements as proof, but somehow observation of drivers being inhibitted by HANS to exit a vehicle as not being proof of similar strength.)

You claim that the Isaac is second nature (which it probably IS), yet the HANS can't possibly be second nature... Please. At least there are other Isaac supporters who can plainly admit that there isn't much difference between the two releases. They even admit that vehicle exit without touching the device is possible with a HANS, while it is NOT possible with the Isaac...[/b]

Greg covered this, could HANS release be second nature - sure. Is it - not in my observation, drivers aren't releasing they are trying to exit with HANS installed it isn't second nature for them. Release is second nature to EVERY ISAAC user.

Is it possible that a HANS can impede a driver's exit from a burning car? You bet. Is the same true for an Isaac? If your answer is anything other than YES, then you are delusional....[/b]

It has been observed with HANS. I can neither see any way for ISAAC to interfer, nor has it ever been observed. Does that mean it isn't possible at all I suppose not - but I would love to see what the little helmet mounts would catch on to prevent egress. If ISAAC could ever interfer with egress once released then so could the HANS posts.

If you want to respond to me again at least include a response to this as well next time - I choose ISAAC - why is it you are so dead set that I shouldn't be allowed that choice and should be forced to use an egress inhibiting yoke system (SFI 38.1)? What is your interest in prventing me my choice? Are you affiliated with HANS? Are you affiliated with someone that sell HANS, either through direct interest or sponsorship? Why exactly would you care if there are drivers who prefer to use a device that functions to its intended purpose that is their preference? Because your positions are taken from an emotional vested interest not from supported logic.

If your interest is that I not "bash" HANS, once again stop making me defend my choice of ISAAC. Because I can not respond with "I just want to use ISAAC." I have to point to why I am making that choice - I have tried HANS and was not comfortable with my ability to achieve full egress and I have seen others that needed desperately to fully egress not able to because of HANS.

BTW as I have stated before 38.1 is perfect for open cockpits - I feel that it inadequately addresses ALL the issues of closed cockpit cars which we field on the race track and its limiting of options is a poor result not a positive one.

And if you continue to think the purpose of my posts is to solely "bash" HANS, replace every instance of HANS with "SFI 38.1 required yoke device". HANS is not my issue, being required to wear a yoke that does in actual practice prevent full egress is.

[JamesB]

the problem I see is every time this debate comes up its pro or against HANS. I would love to hear any imput from racers actually using the R3 or the Hutchens II.

[gsbaker]

James,

Agreed. There are no bad H&N restraints.

[JamesB]

anything is better then nothing, you and every other vender has already proved that on the sled.

Due to the current rule set to go in effect I have to narrow my focus to SFI stickered, sorry thats the breaks, I dont want to show up and have an official rule otherwise.

I just would love to hear from users other then ISAAC and HANS so I can try to make an informed decision. But I might have to make a few small road trips or see if resellers can at least let me purchash, try the device on an strap into my car and return it if its not going to work for me.

[Phat-S]

Mark,

If the SCCA goes that route, and will only let you wear an SFI-certified H&N device, or none at all, they'll have to DQ me at every race, or lose a member. They do not want the liability exposure that not letting someone make their own choice will give them, especially on an optional device.
[/b]

I thought about this quite a bit when the issue first came up some time ago and although it would pain me to do so, I would also follow suit if I were denied the right to wear the equipment I deem necessary for my safety on track. I consider the Isaac to be an integral part of my (very safety conscious) race car - I would have the same issue if the SCCA forced me to remove part of my cage or inboard net.

[erlrich]

anything is better then nothing, you and every other vender has already proved that on the sled.

Due to the current rule set to go in effect I have to narrow my focus to SFI stickered, sorry thats the breaks, I dont want to show up and have an official rule otherwise.

I just would love to hear from users other then ISAAC and HANS so I can try to make an informed decision. But I might have to make a few small road trips or see if resellers can at least let me purchash, try the device on an strap into my car and return it if its not going to work for me. [/b]

James - have you checked out the ISAAC yet? If not, make sure to come by and try mine out at the next MARRS.

[JamesB]

Earl, yes I actually did try it on last year. And I was considering it as a purchase sometime in my rookie year. However, then fastrack came out proposing the rule as strongly recomended but must be 38.1 stickered. Since then I been weary as to how it could be ruled at any race I entered with SCCA if I did not have a 38.1 stickered device. So as I have only tried on a HANS and ISAAC so far its due to lack of access to an R3, Hutchens II, or the new Hutchens Hybrid.

[Bill Miller]

This just in from the August FasTrack as a submitted for the BoD for approval.

Item 18. Effective 11/1/06: Add new section 11 to section 20 as follows:
11. Head and Neck Restraint
The use of a head and neck restraint device is highly recommended. All head and neck
restraint devices must be certified by the SFI Foundation and bear the SFI 38.1 label.[/b]

Keep those cards and letters comming! If this passes, I will save myself some money next year by not renewing my license. :angry:

It simply amazes me that they think nothing is better than something that doesn't have an SFI sticker on it.