The Tim K LRP Qualifying Story

[dpc]

AMEN--- dave

[Tkczecheredflag]

I'm not sure I fully understand the line that was being taken here---but if it was as close to the station as i think it was--it seems to me that it was a driving infraction.

The GCR Rules of the Road in 9.1.4. "Off-Course Excursions" says "The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competion, and shalll not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion".

I had looked this up as i have seen other drivers using the off-camber pavment (off-course) going up the hill, and wondered if this is legal. The way I read the GCR, the line up the hill is marked as the main pavement, and I believe teh off-camber part is off-course. We all have a tendency to go a little over teh line, just as we use teh cirbs on exiting other corners at LRP. Teh question is what constitues "an off-course excursion".

I'd be intersted to hear what you guys think. If I understand what was happening, I have to sde with the corner captain that a black flag was in order. If the pavement up to the guard rail is part of the course, I have to start going faster up the hill.

Larry DuLude
LD71
[/b]

Larry - With all due respect I believe the referrence to the "marked course" is applicable to an airport course configuration. The referrence to the "pavement" is applicable to the a race track configuation. I looked at your pictures and I was putting two wheels over the faded white line with exception of once, when I put all four over the line. I must ad that I didn't notice the line as I was watching the track ahead and the flaggers station. I ibeleive that I was was using the safest part of the track available for the current conditions. ALL of us compromise the "line" at various parts of the track at LRP - So I would be hard pressed to think that we are ALL having Off-Course Excursions

Again - I hold the Station Captian and his team in the highest regard and still beleive that with the smallest of inconvenience the sytem worked. In no way am I trying to defend my driving although I believe I was driving safely. My greater regret is that I made Station 8 fear for their safety.

Sorry I didn't read the end of the thread first.

No need to turn this into a pissing match. The system worked. Hopefully the Comp Board will look at this issue and adjust the "supps" if necessary.

I would also suggest that Skippy as well as many of the clubs not teach this line, as the "wet line", although it is a good and safe one.

Keep the peace my brothers and sisters!

[StephF]

You are correct that Skippy teaches that line. That&#39;s what I was taught in my SBRS school. I believe that they called it a "rim shot". You crossed the dry line in such a fashion as to minimize contact with it, and used the absolute outside of turns such as the uphill to shoot around it. It does work pretty darn well, too. I&#39;ve had two wheels over the line, but never 4, at least not with the old configuration. <_<
I haven&#39;t been to LRP yet this season, hope to do so on July 4. I&#39;ll reserve comment on all of this until I see the setup and how it all flows. Hopefully, we can come to an agreeable place for competitors, workers, and the facility.

[Mattberg]

Interesting....

First I&#39;d want to know a couple of things. Has the flag worker ever driven a racecar? Has the flag worker ever driven Lime Rock? Can the flag worker quote passages from Carroll Smith&#39;s "Tune to Win"?

Personal thoughts aside, if the driver was truely doing something inherently dangerous there might be cause for action. But that said, determining such requires a high level of expertise, hence the aforementioned questions. If all of the above were answered "no" you&#39;d have to rely on erratic behavior of some sort and it sounds like that was not part of the equation. It sounds to me that it was just a question of line and the driver was simply using a different part of the road. If there&#39;s something wrong with that, you better be a goddamn expert to call someone on it because that&#39;s racing.

Personal thoughts lead me a different direction. This guy had no right, experienced or not, to question non-erratic driving on a different line. Personally I wouldn&#39;t want this guy on a flag station period. He&#39;s the epitome of what&#39;s wrong with this club. The job is to inform drivers and respond to "situations" not critique driving. Unfortunately too many workers, God bless them, who&#39;ve had little or no experience in the car on track think they know about driving from standing on a corner. Sorry, just not the case. To make a determination on a driver&#39;s driving line is like a bankrupt guy telling Bill Gates he&#39;s not making money the right way.

It sounds to me like this worker wanted to strut his stuff and got appropriately snubbed by the powers that be. In response he filed a protest to protect his wounded ego and protect the thought that he knew what he was talking about. Pretty sad. If he truly felt their was danger he should have ordered his workers off the corner and left it to the SOM to deal with the situation. I doubt the other workers would have concurred. But even so, if he felt it was putting workers in danger than he endangered everyone around him by not doing so. He&#39;s wrong any way you cut it.

Bottom line is we drive and flaggers flag. You feel in danger, walk away. We&#39;ll deal with it. You want to stay and critique driving lines through protests that hassle drivers who provide the resources and cash for your enjoyment and hobby? Find someone who&#39;ll listen. Good luck. Too many non-driving participants are trying to determine what, where and how we race. It&#39;s why we&#39;re losing out to other organizations.

Last and most important is that the Chief Steward is to blame for the whole mess. WHo was it? THis should have been taken care of with a single radio communication. An idiot on a corner thinking he&#39;s David Hobbs is one thing, but a leader who lets it escalate is not in control OR is as inexperienced and oblivious to racing as the corner worker. When what pavement we use, as long as it&#39;s part of the track, begins to become a judgement call it&#39;s not racing anymore.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Matt,

I think you are taking a really hard line here. There seemingly were some factors that led up to the issue.

1. The &#39;widow maker&#39; was the talk of the paddock as most of us had not seen it until we were out on track (in the rain).

2. In the first run group, an SSM car went up OVER the rail and hit the catch fence in front of the corner station in question.

3. What do you expect the CS to do? The call was made to BF, it was rejected - not once but maybe twice - by the CS presumably...and the corner captain filed a protest. The CS has no control over any of these actions, retaliatory or not. You can only expect for them to be dealt with expediciously when they present themselves.

4. I don&#39;t think any worker wanted to &#39;strut his stuff&#39;. I think they were concerned, had an incident earlier in the day (4 sessions) and wanted action. They didn&#39;t get it and they proceeded how they thought best.

I disagree wholeheartedly that any papers should have been filed on the driver and that a closed-door meeting between the parties involved would have solved the problem as well as set new expectations going forward.

It was a situation that I can understand from all 3 sides and am glad that Tim got to keep his place on grid. Hopefully we can all learn from it...but I would hardly call it "epitome of what&#39;s wrong with this club".

But maybe I just believe everyone starts out with good intentions.

[gran racing]

2. In the first run group, an SSM car went up OVER the rail and hit the catch fend in front of the corner station in question.[/b]

Are there any pictures of this incident?

[Tkczecheredflag]

Matt - I too feel you&#39;re being a bit tough. I appreciate your thoughts but think that you&#39;re "off the regualr race line too." At the end of the day the system worked, no one got hurt, egos intact, cars were in one piece. I angree with Andy on his points - That is there were several points of view all of which had integrity. Yes there were minor inconveniences but they were all inthe interst of saftey - We can never put too much emphasis on saftey.

One of the Corner Workers is national license holder who I race with - He said he was a bit un-nerved with my line at the station. If someone has web space with for a few megs available I will send some video of a couple of laps at the corner and we can all take a peek. I continue to say it&#39;s the safest part of the track although no one would beleive it unless you put your car out there - Caution, you&#39;ll need to bring a wheel barrel for your balls first (not sure what the girls use), it&#39;s not a comfortable line, but a lot of fun.

[lateapex911]

Personally I wouldn&#39;t want this guy on a flag station period. He&#39;s the epitome of what&#39;s wrong with this club.
[/b]

No Matt, that&#39;s yet another silly goofy statement you make to gain headlines and "Sound bites" for your position. You know better. Puleeez...we&#39;re not idiots here.

Bottom line is we drive and flaggers flag. [/b]

Uh no. Flaggers race and racers flag. I have personally run races within an inch of all four sides of the car raced by a flagger who worked that corner that day. He&#39;s a flagger, AND a racer. Or, maybe I should say he&#39;s a racer AND a flagger. I know dozens of guys who drive and flag, or drive and tech, or drive and officiate, or drive and write rules....or drive AND do whatever FOR the club.

How many hours of flagging and flag training do you have? You need to walk a mile in the other guys shoes...it will do us all good, as at least you&#39;ll be off the soapbox for a while...



(I think we should ALL work various positions around the organization to better learn how the operation works, and to appreciate the roles people play. I&#39;ve gotten my feet wet on the track flagging, spent some time in tech, done a few race chair things, and served on Ad Hoc commitees. I&#39;m no expert in any single area, but it has been enlightening.)

Last and most important is that the Chief Steward is to blame for the whole mess.
[/b]

100% wrong. As pointed out above, that&#39;s completely incorrect. The system worked. Period. If you want to blame somebody, and I know your day just doesn&#39;t feel complete if you&#39;re not slinging arrows at someone, sling a few at LRP for not thinking thru the entire corner reconfiguration.

[gran racing]

Before I learned that a Miata went flying towards them earlier in the day, I thought it was a bit crazy to protest Tim and that line. But after learning that, it really explained things and the rationale behind it. As most others have stated, this wasn&#39;t about Tim - it was about a corner they felt was unsafe to work. I don&#39;t think that Tim should have been black flagged (as he wasn&#39;t), but this protest demonstrates how serious the workers were about being afraid out there. Don&#39;t forget - they are volunteers, and get paid nothing. In my opinion, the easy way out would have been for them to have told the Chief Steward "I&#39;m done working this station - get someone else to do it."

When we race, we accept that there are some risks involved with the sport. Someone who volunteers should not have to accept the same risks.

[Magical Trevor]

Are there any pictures of this incident?
[/b]

It&#39;s not much, but there&#39;s a picture of the fence after the accident.
This was interesting because it sounds like a direct result of the tires that have been placed in front of the "widowmaker"-without the tires it probably would have been worse for the driver.
http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/lrp1/images/DSC_2438.jpg

[Mattberg]

It&#39;s racing guys. My point is that he should have talked to the CS and gone over and chatted with the driver. A protest is a truly overt action and is perceived certain ways. None good in this case. No reason for it. And BTW a flagger is a flagger when he&#39;s flagging. A flagger can&#39;t be a racer when he&#39;s not belted in. No better than a Monday morning quarterback. Hard line? Yea, sure. But officials assume far too big a role in what we do and it really needs to be curtailed.

And safety is important too but for one man to make that call who is not a driver (I understand there was one at the station) is just not right. Furthermore, I don&#39;t know many serious drivers with contiguous ongoing racing efforts. Just the way it goes. I&#39;ve never met a racer who says "I&#39;d rather be flagging"... unless the wife is really tough and divorce is out of the question.

We gotta&#39; get officials out of the racing picture. RFA&#39;s against drivers by non-racing officials even when the drivers say it was a racing incident is all too common. You want to sit on a corner and make judgements on driving? Go right ahead but I think the right to protest by workers and officials should be removed. You want to get in the mix and speak your opinion? Get off that corner station, get a second job, divorce the wife and strap on the belts. Otherwise leave the racing to the racers. If you feel unsafe, leave the corner, take your crew with you if they agree and let the CS sort it out.

[StephF]

I continue to say it&#39;s the safest part of the track although no one would beleive it unless you put your car out there - Caution, you&#39;ll need to bring a wheel barrel for your balls first (not sure what the girls use), it&#39;s not a comfortable line, but a lot of fun.
[/b]

Personally, I use a dump truck Tim.

You know Matt....you haven&#39;t changed since the 1980&#39;s. Like the time you destroyed an S2 and blamed eveyone under the sun for your moves on track. Yeah, I was there. I watched it come back in baskets. The whole incident was stupid.
If this club is so frigging terrible, why are you still hanging around it?
And, FYI, you&#39;re starting to sound like an old, sexist pig with your remarks about "the wife is tough, so be a man and divorce her." Because after all, only manly men race, right?
Why don&#39;t you go back to riling up the Southern guys instead of trying to turn this thread into yet another train wreck.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Personally, I use a dump truck Tim.

You know Matt....you haven&#39;t changed since the 1980&#39;s. Like the time you destroyed an S2 and blamed eveyone under the sun for your moves on track. Yeah, I was there. I watched it come back in baskets. The whole incident was stupid.
If this club is so frigging terrible, why are you still hanging around it?
And, FYI, you&#39;re starting to sound like an old, sexist pig with your remarks about "the wife is tough, so be a man and divorce her." Because after all, only manly men race, right?
Why don&#39;t you go back to riling up the Southern guys instead of trying to turn this thread into yet another train wreck.
[/b]

Steph - Hoping I was not offensive with my "wheel barrel" comment and always believed this sport is for ALL racers.
Don&#39;t know of Matt but you know I hold our corner workers in the highest regard and I also beleive the system worked at LRP.
Matt - FYI the corner worker with the national license (driver and f&c), was there specifically to view the new configuration of this corner/station #8 for the benefit of ALL racers - A task not many of us would give up our seat to do. - Thanks Grant!

[RSTPerformance]

We gotta&#39; get officials out of the racing picture. RFA&#39;s against drivers by non-racing officials even when the drivers say it was a racing incident is all too common. You want to sit on a corner and make judgements on driving? Go right ahead but I think the right to protest by workers and officials should be removed. You want to get in the mix and speak your opinion? Get off that corner station, get a second job, divorce the wife and strap on the belts. Otherwise leave the racing to the racers. If you feel unsafe, leave the corner, take your crew with you if they agree and let the CS sort it out.
[/b]

Matt-

You are a friggen moron, and I think I speek for everyone.

Open your friggen eyes before you keep offending people. Tons of corner workers would love to go racing but can&#39;t afford it. Others have no desire to race but love racing...

Who the heck is going to keep checks and balances on our races??? OUR officials for the most part don&#39;t get totaly involved with stuff as they are mostly only concerned about safety and if we (drivers and workers) are having fun. If you don&#39;t believe me do some training, they protect the drivers a lot more than you think.

IF YOU think that the officials/workers and such shouldn&#39;t be able to protest/penalize people without drivers taking actions do you really think that anyone would ever get penalized? Sorry that I have to say this but MOST drivers are a lot of talk and actually never get up the "balls" (as you say) to file a protest. Most events have 1 or 2 protests at the most, however their are generally at least 6-10 CSA penalties issued by the stewards above and beyond any protests. All of the CSA are generally initiated by some worker who is ensuring that we all have a good and safe time today and another day in the future. You have NO IDEA what goes on and I really think it is time you quit racing and checked out the other side of the fence to see what really happens.

ALL the workers and officials are trying to make it fun for EVERYONE, workers and drivers alike. Drivers are no more important than workers, but Workers are a hell of a lot more important than drivers. If we lost 10 drivers from the club then our events will still go on, probably unoticible, however if we lost 10 workers would we still have another event???

I don&#39;t respect your opinion, and I hope that NOBODY is ever influenced by the stupid things you say that drive away our most important and valuable members.

GO TO ANOTHER ORGANIZATION ALREADY IF YOU HATE SCCA, WE LOVE IT AND YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE MY MIND EVER!!!

Raymond




OK I just reread my post and I decided that I was far to harsh. Matt because many corner workers and such don&#39;t have the means to race, but would love to I think we should take you up on your wonderful thought and take it to the next level.

Since you seem to be blind to any sort of financial constraints, and since you really want to make a difference in our club you are going to give the best gift ever and be the first one to pay for the workers PDX or drivers school event correct? And you are going to let them drive your car if they don&#39;t have one right? I mean this is all so that they can go racing and learn how hard it is to be a driver... And when they are at that drivers event you are gong to work the corner keep your mouth quite and just waive flags like a robot or monky right?

Raymond

[lateapex911]

It&#39;s racing guys. ......A protest is a truly overt action and is perceived certain ways. None good in this case. No reason for it. And BTW a flagger is a flagger when he&#39;s flagging. ....... No better than a Monday morning quarterback. Hard line? Yea, sure. But officials assume far too big a role in what we do and it really needs to be curtailed.

......We gotta&#39; get officials out of the racing picture. .....I think the right to protest by workers and officials should be removed. You want to get in the mix and speak your opinion? Get off that corner station, get a second job, divorce the wife and strap on the belts.
[/b]

Classic.

So, Matt...hows the SIT thing going????????


One thing that&#39;s "Funny" about this post is how often I hear racers...drivers...guys/gals ON the track, lamenting how the "Officials" aren&#39;t severe enough...how they don&#39;t "Do enough"..how they should be more agressive on "racing incidents" and other on track transgressions. Not to mention how most guys...well, maybe most IT guys, would BEG officials to start slapping down some "rip the engine apart papers".

When you read the appeals in Fastrack, it&#39;s pretty clear how the system works, and how, in certain cases, officials create actions. And those usually seem perfectly justified.

One of the reasons we as a club don&#39;t have greater influx of drivers from the marque clubs or the track day clubs is the reputation SCCA has for car wreckage. I know plenty of guys who just think the risk/reward ratio is out of line, and while they&#39;d like to join the club, they think better of it due to the known reputation for car damaging incidents. I know I&#39;ve spent buckets of time, missed races and have drained my bank account becuase of sloppy driving that results in T-bones and other incidents. I&#39;ve watched it from the sides too. Guys at the Runoffs who qualified poorly feeling that they "Deserved" to be up front, and push people out of the way, when they didn&#39;t "own" the corner or the spot. Rookies who just make mistakes. But who ends up paying for the mental wrongs that end up in bent metal?? I know it&#39;s cost me..and I know plenty of others as well. And thats not fair. Sure, "racing" isn&#39;t fair, but that doesn&#39;t mean we can&#39;t strive to make it as fair as possible. That&#39;s where the third party ...the Officials ..comes in.

Will removing the right to protest form workers make that situation better?? Will newcomers feel better about their chances to survive without the officials having protest rights? Duh......it&#39;s almost ludicrous to ask.

Please......step down and hand the soapbox over. Your opinion has been noted.

[BobsAuto]

I&#39;ve followed this thread and have tried to keep out of it but I really have to put my humble 2 cents in at this point. (Sorry Raymond).. Matt, you haven&#39;t changed one iota. I have been on track with you and have been the subject of your sexist tyrades, and yes, I quit because I really thought I had caused a major mishap that I believed involved you. It was that incident that made me realize that I was no longer quick to react to incidents around me. However, if it weren&#39;t for the corner workers and officials also letting me know that I had lost my "reaction time" I probably would have kept at it longer and yes, probably made some fool disasterous mistakes. The corner workers have watched and studied and if given the chance, would probably outdrive many drivers because of their "knowledge" of each corner they&#39;ve worked and their ability to "judge" the good lines from the bad and unsafe lines. As for the officials, I would hate to see you go to that higher level and run with the "PROS" of Nextel Cup. The officials would have you out of a car, fined, and thrown out of the track for the comments alone!

You need to sit back and read what you have said and really think about the consequences of your suggestions.

Yes, I am now a spectator, but I have crewed, driven, worked, and done my time at the club level, in SCCA, and as a worker for NASCAR. Now am to enjoy my kids and their comrades racing. I can still tell a good line from a bad line and a good call from a bad call by a corner station and/or an official. And I can still tell the pigheaded sore LOSERS that still exist out there. Grow up and take time to smell the roses.

[Mattberg]

Stephanie, I apologize for the divorce comment. It was meant in jest not as an affront to women, marriage or anything else. Strictly toungue in cheek sarcasm related to an excuse I myself have been guilty of as it relates to money and racing.

As far as my accident at LRP, it&#39;s a good example of when officials should act and when not to act. And BTW, I blamed only one person. But that one person had been off the track three times in qualifying early apexing the downhill. A line that takes you off track consistently is a lot different than a line that just looks funny or different. I wasn&#39;t the only driver upset either and they didn&#39;t write off a brand new Lola. The fourth time he did it was the end of the road, literally, not to mention coming back onto the middle of the straight and stopping. When I saw the brake light go on there was nothing to do but hold on. Still not sure how many flips and cartwheels I did but that was one wild ride. He did get some kind of probation as I remember but it was probably deserved. I know I considered it a racing incident and never protested.

Ancient history. Anyway the problem I had with this situation is I believe it crossed a line and represents a precedent. As long as a racer is on the road is anyone really within bounds to criticize technique or a driving line? We deal with what the track offers, obey the rules and race, and it sure sounds to me like one driver found a quick way around that he felt comfortable with. If it endangers workers I think it&#39;s really a matter for the SCCA or local regions and the track management. It also is a bad precedent in my view if we start creating exceptions to the rules based on personal feelings or one&#39;s belief of what constitutes safe or unsafe driving (erratic or obviously dangerous driving excluded). If all agree, go out and paint a line and tell them in the driver&#39;s meeting not to go there. I just really have a problem with officials protesting a driver based on technique issues. What&#39;s next, unsafe passing? We see more and more situations where drivers agree something was a racing incident or within rules and boundaries, yet an official insists on a protest. A very high ranking official and former board member recently filed three separate protests for racing incidents at a National. All three were overturned by the CoA. Now did the drivers really need to go through all that even if they all agreed there was no cause? Maybe the protest process needs updating. Perhaps it needs to be sponsored or supported by at least two other members. Perhaps that takes the personal aspect out of it. Maybe they should have to pay to file. I don&#39;t know. I just hate seeing a driver going though a protest for playing within the rules.

[Mattberg]

Since you seem to be blind to any sort of financial constraints, and since you really want to make a difference in our club you are going to give the best gift ever and be the first one to pay for the workers PDX or drivers school event correct? And you are going to let them drive your car if they don&#39;t have one right? I mean this is all so that they can go racing and learn how hard it is to be a driver... And when they are at that drivers event you are gong to work the corner keep your mouth quite and just waive flags like a robot or monky right?

Raymond
[/b]

Raymond, I&#39;ve been giving away free time in my cars for years. I&#39;ve never charged them a dime and even paid thier entry fees. But generally I give the time to racers who are a little hard up on dough in order to keep their licenses. That&#39;s the way I do it and I will continue to do such. Giving a worker a ride or a school is a nice thought but I&#39;d rather help out drivers in need. They don&#39;t get much help or attention from the club.

[Mattberg]

Just to add...

How do you feel being pulled over for doing 47 MPH in a 45 MPH zone? Ticky tack. I&#39;m paying $300 more in insurance per year for that ticket and paid $125 for the violation. I feel raped. But even in that case, I was breaking the rules.

Tim broke no rules and had an official come down on him in the same way. It&#39;s just not right. He was doing 45 MPH in a 45 MPH zone and someone with no track or racing experience didn&#39;t like the way he was doing it. That&#39;s a bad precedent. If we&#39;re going to start judging driving lines, then yes, I will find another organization like many have. And unlike the descriptions that have been presented about SCCA being a crash fest that&#39;s not the reason people have gone elsewhere. I&#39;ve been involved with some other organizations and the biggest complaint about SCCA is overbearing officials and unfair treatment on classifications. The vintage guys are the ones that complain about crashing.

If drivers agree something was a racing incident, please explain to me what an official&#39;s protest produces other than acrimony? Joanne Jensen has no racing experience whatsoever but protests three drivers on their driving. She gets reversed by the CoA on all three because, basically, she had no idea what she was talking about. She&#39;s an idiot. But three drivers had to go through a bunch of BS so she could feel powerful. That&#39;s just wrong.

Do you really want no-drivers dictating how we race?

[lateapex911]

Just to add...

How do you feel being pulled over for doing 47 MPH in a 45 MPH zone? Ticky tack. I&#39;m paying $300 more in insurance per year for that ticket and paid $125 for the violation. I feel raped. But even in that case, I was breaking the rules.
[/b]

You got a ticket for 47?? Hmmm the Karma bank seems to be working, LOL.

Tim broke no rules and had an official come down on him in the same way.
[/b]

Uh, no, its NOT the same thing.

You were guilty, Tim was not, you got a ticket, Tim was not sanctioned. Seems obvious.

Beyond that of course, you&#39;re using this in yet another of your anti officials mental masterbation soapbox rampages, where the driver gets the screw, same theme as always...but you&#39;ve got to let this one go. Tim hasn&#39;t been sanctioned! He didn&#39;t get the screw.

Besides, it&#39;s NOT ABOUT TIM! This is about a larger issue. If you&#39;ve read and done your research..your due diligence, you&#39;ll know that.

Listen, rant all you want in Fla, go whine your case to Joannne whats her name, go protest HER, whatever! Heck..start your own website, finish the Stewards In Training program you started, be productive! But just forget about this one... this deal is closed. You won&#39;t find any fish biting your silly bait.