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Thread: The Tim K LRP Qualifying Story

  1. #1
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    I was the ITA dirver that was protested. The protest was for driving off the race line in an unsafe manner.

    First I want to say that I hold SCCA in the highest regard. In short I love this club. My roots in SCCA stem from F&C - I flagged for 4 years before I set foot into a race car in 1997. I am incredibly grateful for all the volunteers that make our events safe and fun, second to none are the Corner Workers - You guys (the unisex version of guys) are great!! - Thank You for your generosity and time and for keeping us safe. I also want to say that the SOM, Chief, Chair, Driver Rep and all Officals and Stewards who considered the protest were professional and courteous. We have rules that govern us and I beleive they exist, in part, to keep ALL of us safe and hopefully leave room for improvement. Anything I say about the protest is my response, read that as my version, and in no way meant to minimze the process, the outcome, or what happened. I consider this a seriuos issue. Okay?

    Anyone who has raced with me at LRP prior to this year knows I love LRP in the rain. Call me sick but rain can be the great equlaizer especcaially if you know, and are comfortable, with the "wet line." In the uphill between Station 7 and 8 I have always run a wide, a drivers side left "wet race line". Many who have seen me think it's a bit carzy- I used to run extremely close to the ARMCO in the uphill (how close? I could touch it with my hand close) - anyone who has tried it knows that it's the safest place on the track in compromising, wet conditions. I must also ad that it is not neccessarily the fastest wet race line but it is the safest. On this section of track I like to place the car just off the "traditonal" racing surface on a section that I will term "run-off" - a section of asphalt that is rough (rougher than the "regular" track surface), and provides tremendous grip. I can't tell you all my secrets about this line, although I will ad that most are afraid to run out there as it is some what intimidating to the driver. I will say that one key for me were the Hoosier Dirt Stockers although now I use the new Molded Rains - a tremendous wet tire (your welcome - I love you too Bob Smart) Keep in mind that this is the area now termed "widow maker" (sexest to say the least), and has now been expanded with additonal new asphalt and a ARMCO extension. - I no way have I used the new asphalt surface or am I an advocate for using the new surface. The surface that I use is the "old" asphalt. On that note I suspect, based on what I have been told, that this great secret will be taken away. That would sadden me because I beleive it would compromise the safest part of the track, the best wet race line at LRP.

    Prior to the expansion of this section of track my wet line has never been in question, Due to recent events (read that as wrecks), one as early as this weekend- I beleive the Corner Workers were feeling at risk of injury and this is seemed to be a good "stepping off point" in an effort to correct the problem. In an early session a SM got into trouble and compromised the safety of the corner workers so I completely unsderstand the issue. The workes unfamilar with my line were feeling at risk - that was the issue.

    In the end Officals and Stewards did not uphold the protest - No rules were violated. I made it a point to wait until the day was over, and with cold beer in hand, offered my apoligies to the the corener captian and his team for scaring them, trying to reasure them I had the car under control.

    I'm not sure what will happen going forward but my hope is this: If a referrence to "white lines" appear in the supps and if LRP re-paints the "white line" in the uphill - paint the line left of the "Old Surface" between the new and old surface leaving the safest part of the track available for racing. Whatever we need to do in an effort to keep the Corner Workers safe - DO IT.

    Happy Fathers Day to all the Dad's - God Bless the Mom's for making it happen - It's great to be a Dad.

    Tim Klvana
    203-240-1901

    1997 EMRA Vanderbilt Cup TT ST-3 Champion

    2002 ITC NERRC Champion
    2003 ITC NARRC Champion
    2005 ITC NARRC Champion
    2008 ITA NJRRS Champion
    2009 Pro ITA Champion
    2011 ITA NJRRS Champion
    2011 ITA NARRC Champion

    CPM Motorsports Cars - '87 Civic Si - ITA #11, '86 CRX- ITC #11, '95 Integra - ITA #11
    [email protected]


    Carol Miller, "Take A Breath"
    http://www.reverbnation.com/carolmiller

  2. #2
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    Good post Tim.

    My take on it was that it might not have been about Tim, but he was the right guy in the right place doing the right thing at the wrong time.

    Fact is it is awfully hard to protest him and win based on calling his actions "Dangerous", as that's awfully hard to define. And as there aren't any "No fly zones" that I am aware of in the GCR ot the Supps relating to that corner, it makes the protest against him much less winnable.

    Tim told me, (correct me if I mis-state this Tim) that he didn't use any pavement that he didn't use pre corner changes in the rain. Obviously this is NOT an area used in the dry.

    However, the flaggers felt threatened as never before, obviously.

    To me, then, Tim isn't the villian, but changes that created a new outlook from the flaggers on the scene, are to blame. That seems awfully obvious.

    (I heard one flagger who aso races, who was at the corner when the Flag Captain posted his protest say, if I understood him correctly, that he thought Tims line was pretty out there, but if he was behind the wheel he'd be out there searching for the same traction as well. That's an illuminating)
    Jake Gulick


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  3. #3
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    Good post Tim.

    My take on it was that it might not have been about Tim, but he was the right guy in the right place doing the right thing at the wrong time.

    Tim told me, (correct me if I mis-state this Tim) that he didn't use any pavement that he didn't use pre corner changes in the rain. Obviously this is NOT an area used in the dry.

    [/b]
    I beleive the wrong place wrong time theory is a good one Jake.

    It was obvious to me that corner captian has never seen me run this line (pre track changes or post), and I probally feel that he may have never seen anyone one run this uncommon line. When I explained that I used to run within inches of the ARMCO (pre track changes) he had time believing me or that this was possible. There was also concern from the Station 8 about me putting more than two wheels "drivers left" of the white line. After watching my video I confess that I put four wheels left of the white line once and only once, not that this made a difference to me regarding safety - we were still on the safest surface available.

    I have several SCCA race videos of rain races at LRP running this line, all of which include a victory lap. Truth be told we always gave the boys and girls in ITA a good run in the rain using this line with the "C" car - case in point the 2005 NARRC-OFFS when we finsihed 3rd overall.

    Tim Klvana
    203-240-1901

    1997 EMRA Vanderbilt Cup TT ST-3 Champion

    2002 ITC NERRC Champion
    2003 ITC NARRC Champion
    2005 ITC NARRC Champion
    2008 ITA NJRRS Champion
    2009 Pro ITA Champion
    2011 ITA NJRRS Champion
    2011 ITA NARRC Champion

    CPM Motorsports Cars - '87 Civic Si - ITA #11, '86 CRX- ITC #11, '95 Integra - ITA #11
    [email protected]


    Carol Miller, "Take A Breath"
    http://www.reverbnation.com/carolmiller

  4. #4
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    I would like to learn from this. Maybe some long-time Stewards or Corner Chiefs can chime in.

    Here is my question: Why no black flag for Tim if he was driving in such a (perceived) manner as to incur the wrath of a protest from a corner station? I would think that if he was irratic, dangerous to himself, the corner workers or the rest of us drivers, they would have given him first a closed black flag, then an open black flag as allowed by the GCR. Seemingly, none of this happened and I wonder why...if the offense was so severe that it warrented a corner station protesting his qualifying session.

    I am however, very excited to see some ACTION from corners who see something they feel is wrong, I just think this was very extreme. I would love to hear the other side of the story. The workers in NER are the best at their craft and the more we can learn from each other, the better the races will be.

    (In case there is any confusion, at the track I offered Tim my full support as a driver on track with him)
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

  5. #5
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    I would like to learn from this. Maybe some long-time Stewards or Corner Chiefs can chime in.

    Here is my question: Why no black flag for Tim if he was driving in such a (perceived) manner as to incur the wrath of a protest from a corner station? I would think that if he was irratic, dangerous to himself, the corner workers or the rest of us drivers, they would have given him first a closed black flag, then an open black flag as allowed by the GCR. Seemingly, none of this happened and I wonder why...if the offense was so severe that it warrented a corner station protesting his qualifying session.

    I am however, very excited to see some ACTION from corners who see something they feel is wrong, I just think this was very extreme. I would love to hear the other side of the story. The workers in NER are the best at their craft and the more we can learn from each other, the better the races will be.

    (In case there is any confusion, at the track I offered Tim my full support as a driver on track with him)
    [/b]
    At about the third or fourth lap through as I was clearing Station 8 I did notice a a furled flag pointing to drivers right. I was not clear as to the color ( I was a little busy). I didn't know what to think. I shared this information with the Race Officials and Stewards when questioned susequent to them visiting Station 8 during the lunch beak My understanding of a "furled black" is that it is a Start/Finish or designated "black flag station" - flag only ( I could be wrong about this), and that it might accompany a car number and be followed by a open black and car number. Now the Corner Captain is routinely at Start/Finish and may have been using his descretion for a closed black but I was unfamiliar with this practice and like I said could not make out the color. No flag was displayed on the next lap at Station 8. Keep peddlin' right?

    Tim Klvana
    203-240-1901

    1997 EMRA Vanderbilt Cup TT ST-3 Champion

    2002 ITC NERRC Champion
    2003 ITC NARRC Champion
    2005 ITC NARRC Champion
    2008 ITA NJRRS Champion
    2009 Pro ITA Champion
    2011 ITA NJRRS Champion
    2011 ITA NARRC Champion

    CPM Motorsports Cars - '87 Civic Si - ITA #11, '86 CRX- ITC #11, '95 Integra - ITA #11
    [email protected]


    Carol Miller, "Take A Breath"
    http://www.reverbnation.com/carolmiller

  6. #6
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    At about the third or fourth lap through as I was clearing Station 8 I did notice a a furled flag pointing to drivers right. I was not clear as to the color ( I was a little busy). I didn't know what to think. I shared this information with the Race Officials and Stewards when questioned susequent to them visiting Station 8 during the lunch beak My understanding of a "furled black" is that it is a Start/Finish or designated "black flag station" - flag only ( I could be wrong about this), and that it might accompany a car number and be followed by a open black and car number. Now the Corner Captain is routinely at Start/Finish and may have been using his descretion for a closed black but I was unfamiliar with this practice and like I said could not make out the color. No flag was displayed on the next lap at Station 8. Keep peddlin' right? [/b]
    My read on the GCR is that the furled flag (first warning) is to be displayed at Starters stand with optional number board. Open black flag is to be displayed at SS as well with a manditory number board. The open flag can also be displayed at another flag station accompanied with a number board. (2006 GCR page 57)
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

  7. #7
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    Now the Corner Captain is routinely at Start/Finish and may have been using his descretion for a closed black...[/b]
    Individual stations do NOT have the discretion to produce furled (or open) black flags without express direction from the stewards of the meet. If this actually happened, that you received a furled black from that station - and especially if it was done without expressed instructions from the tower - this is MOST DECISIVELY contrary to the GCR and subject to sanction. - GA

  8. #8
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    You are right that the station can not give you a furled Black on there own and reliable first hand witnesses told be they did not. Now they did wave something but it was not a black flag. May have been a tire iron. They were pretty freaked out.

    The corner captain, who I know was sincere did repeatedly ask that Tim be black flagged during the session and was disappointed that the tower did not respond. He felt the tower showed him disrespect by not fulfilling his request so he protested.

    I do not believe that Tim’s driving was a rule infraction so I would have been upset if he was black flagged. If there is doubt I believe it is better to argue it after the session than do a black flag. A black flag is a bullet you can not put back in the gun.
    dick patullo
    ner scca IT7 Rx7

  9. #9
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    You are right that the station can not give you a furled Black on there own and reliable first hand witnesses told be they did not. Now they did wave something but it was not a black flag. May have been a tire iron. They were pretty freaked out.

    The corner captain, who I know was sincere did repeatedly ask that Tim be black flagged during the session and was disappointed that the tower did not respond. He felt the tower showed him disrespect by not fulfilling his request so he protested.

    I do not believe that Tim’s driving was a rule infraction so I would have been upset if he was black flagged. If there is doubt I believe it is better to argue it after the session than do a black flag. A black flag is a bullet you can not put back in the gun.
    [/b]
    Dick - It goes along with the wrong place, wrong time, right situation theory. The protest was not upheld because no rules were broken and I do beleive this had as much to do with F&C as it did with me. Now that I think about it your right, it probally was a tire iron. Again, I apologize publically for any concern I caused relating to Station 8's safety.

    Tim Klvana
    203-240-1901

    1997 EMRA Vanderbilt Cup TT ST-3 Champion

    2002 ITC NERRC Champion
    2003 ITC NARRC Champion
    2005 ITC NARRC Champion
    2008 ITA NJRRS Champion
    2009 Pro ITA Champion
    2011 ITA NJRRS Champion
    2011 ITA NARRC Champion

    CPM Motorsports Cars - '87 Civic Si - ITA #11, '86 CRX- ITC #11, '95 Integra - ITA #11
    [email protected]


    Carol Miller, "Take A Breath"
    http://www.reverbnation.com/carolmiller

  10. #10

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    I'm not sure I fully understand the line that was being taken here---but if it was as close to the station as i think it was--it seems to me that it was a driving infraction.

    The GCR Rules of the Road in 9.1.4. "Off-Course Excursions" says "The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competion, and shalll not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion".

    I had looked this up as i have seen other drivers using the off-camber pavment (off-course) going up the hill, and wondered if this is legal. The way I read the GCR, the line up the hill is marked as the main pavement, and I believe teh off-camber part is off-course. We all have a tendency to go a little over teh line, just as we use teh cirbs on exiting other corners at LRP. Teh question is what constitues "an off-course excursion".

    I'd be intersted to hear what you guys think. If I understand what was happening, I have to sde with the corner captain that a black flag was in order. If the pavement up to the guard rail is part of the course, I have to start going faster up the hill.

    Larry DuLude
    LD71

  11. #11
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    I'm not sure I fully understand the line that was being taken here---but if it was as close to the station as i think it was--it seems to me that it was a driving infraction.

    The GCR Rules of the Road in 9.1.4. "Off-Course Excursions" says "The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competion, and shalll not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion".

    I had looked this up as i have seen other drivers using the off-camber pavment (off-course) going up the hill, and wondered if this is legal. The way I read the GCR, the line up the hill is marked as the main pavement, and I believe teh off-camber part is off-course. We all have a tendency to go a little over teh line, just as we use teh cirbs on exiting other corners at LRP. Teh question is what constitues "an off-course excursion".

    I'd be intersted to hear what you guys think. If I understand what was happening, I have to sde with the corner captain that a black flag was in order. If the pavement up to the guard rail is part of the course, I have to start going faster up the hill.

    Larry DuLude
    LD71
    [/b]

    Tim was on the pavement and there are no lines on the track. In fact, Tim wasn't even onto the new pavement. How could that we considered off course?? Or gaining an advantage? It's not like running "below the line" in NASCAR. No where does it say (in track rules or supps) that you can't run certain areas of the track.

    Therefore, any pavement at Lime Rock is fair game.......

    It's certainly not like Tim is a reckless driver (unlike Crazy Joe ). Just the opposite! I think Tim's response was handled with class and the point is/was, that someone had an agenda and was trying to make a statement.


    Jeff L

    ITA Miata



    2010 NARRC Champion

    2007 NERRC Championship, 2nd place
    2008 NARRC Championship, 2nd place
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  12. #12
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    I am assuming that everyone else was running the rain line? The rain line at LRP requires you to run around the extreme outside of the uphill and I am curious why Tim was singled out on this if everyone was running the rain line.

    The uphill in the rain on the dry line is VERY slippery. Ask me how I know!
    Jeremy Billiel

  13. #13
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    I am assuming that everyone else was running the rain line? The rain line at LRP requires you to run around the extreme outside of the uphill and I am curious why Tim was singled out on this if everyone was running the rain line.

    The uphill in the rain on the dry line is VERY slippery. Ask me how I know! [/b]
    Tim's line is most extreme...and with the new rails at the top of the hill (and a SM that jumped them and hit the protector fence for the workers earlier in the day) the workers felt they needed to do something. Seemingly with no support from the PTB, they protested.

    Bottom line? Tim's line was no different than it has been in the past and cooler heads prevailed.

    Besides, maybe he will change it - his line can't be that fast if a Miata beat him in a rain Qual!!! :P :P :P

    Man I can't wait for the NARRC Runoffs...maybe no Prod cars will show...
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

  14. #14

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    I hope I can post this picture(s) here---with credit and apologies to Clark Nichols.

    I was suggesting that driving to the left of the white line appears to be "off-course". Maybe the white line is wiped away by now? To me, the pavement color (without the line) appears to mark th boundary---maybe you guys see it differently?

    If Tim (and others including myself) was driving to the right of the white line, then I don't see what the fuss is all about. If to the left, looks like off-course to me.

    Larry DuLude
    LD71

    [attachmentid=471]

    [attachmentid=472]


  15. #15
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    I'm not sure I fully understand the line that was being taken here---but if it was as close to the station as i think it was--it seems to me that it was a driving infraction.

    The GCR Rules of the Road in 9.1.4. "Off-Course Excursions" says "The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competion, and shalll not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion".

    Larry DuLude
    LD71
    [/b]
    Larry,

    The GCR Glossary doesn't define an "off-course excursion", but I think an operational definition is that the paved area is part of the course, considering that the rule that you cited says 'follow the pavement'. When a section of pavement would not be considered part of the course, is when it is isolated or sectioned off, similar to the kink at the top of the hill that they use for the Sports Cars.

    The corner captain, who I know was sincere did repeatedly ask that Tim be black flagged during the session and was disappointed that the tower did not respond. He felt the tower showed him disrespect by not fulfilling his request so he protested.
    [/b]
    Dick,

    I find this a bit disturbing. I support the tower for not black flagging Tim, as he violated no rule, and had no mechanical problems. And if the corner captain felt that he was right, and wanted to protest someone, he should have protested the person in the tower that decided not to black flag Tim, not Tim. This is an example of workers disregarding the rules, and in my opinion, could easily be considered a vexatious protest by the corner captain.

    I have the greatest respect for our workers, but I believe that this is a case of them over-stepping their authority. From Dick's comment, the corner captain was pissed at the tower, so he was going to take it out on Tim. I applaud the stewards for not upholding the protest, but I think the corner captain should have been sanctioned for his actions.

  16. #16
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    Well Bill, there was a lot going on and I am sure the captain was frustrated. He is certainly within his rights to protest any driver’s behavior. With out having proof that the driver was guilty of dangerous driving the captain would not have much of a case against the PTB. I am supportive of Tim in this protest and it is a shame that he had to waste 2 hours of dealing with, however I do not believe the corner crew acted in an inappropriate manner at any time.

    From the first time reports I have Tim’s rain line is radically different than any other car that was running that day but that is his right.

    Larry the white line is very faded but it exists, it’s just that there is nothing in the supps or the GCR that prohibits crossing it.

    dick patullo
    ner scca IT7 Rx7

  17. #17
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    If that were the case, everyone at PIR would be D'Qed for using the new pavement instead of driving into gravel...if it is paved and there is nothing in the supps that mentions it, i would think you can drive there. espec considering the status of the white line...pretty faded with new pavement there i can see the confusion...and if there is more traction out there...thats where id be! Daytona has an access road just out of the horseshoe...everyone uses it to open the exit of the corner...same white line situation except no corner station or barriers.
    Evan Darling
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    Well Bill, there was a lot going on and I am sure the captain was frustrated. He is certainly within his rights to protest any driver’s behavior. [/b]

    Actually Dick, he's not. That's where the whole 'bad faith' and 'vexatious' protest issue comes in. You can't just protest someone because you don't like how they drive (provided that they haven't broken any rules). And I suspect that this person knew that they wouldn't get any traction w/ a protest against the person in the tower, not to mention that they would have probably been black-balled, so, he did what he thought he could get away with, protest the driver.

    I look at it this way, if you're on station, and you call something in, and the tower says that it's ok, then that should be the end of it. Especially if you call it in more than once, and are told the same thing.

  19. #19
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    Bill we can continue to disagree. I do have the advantage however of knowing all the players involved in this little drama and know each was guided by what they believe was right from their perspective.

    Time to move on.
    dick patullo
    ner scca IT7 Rx7

  20. #20
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    Bill we can continue to disagree. I do have the advantage however of knowing all the players involved in this little drama and know each was guided by what they believe was right from their perspective.

    Time to move on.
    [/b]

    Works for me Dick.

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