SEDiv IT7 and regional SM tire questions

[Toni]

Hi,

Several days ago I took a new assignment as DA of tech for SEDiv. That includes being chiar of the regional car class rules. At the mid year meeting at the end of July I must make a proposal to the SEDiv REs on regional car class rules for the 2007 season. You are the racers and should have a voice in the rules.

So I'm asking questions

The regional car class rules cover all regional races, SARRC, ECR, Pro IT, plain regionals, any and all regional races in SEDiv (unless the supps of an even say other wise). The current rules are posted on www.sedivracing.org

IT7 and ITA cars eligible to run as IT7, your question is

Do you want an open tire rule? Do you want a spec tire?

SM regional cars

Do you want an open tire rule? Do you want to use the same tire used for SM for national races?

Send you response to me

[email protected]

Thanks for your input.

Toni Creighton

[crushed]

email sent, Thanks!

[it7rx739]

E-mail sent,tanks TONI !!!!!

ops!! THANKS!!!!!!!!

[tom_sprecher]

I have been spending way too much time on silly things like making a living and keeping my house from falling apart and not enough time staying up to date on the important stuff like this issue, the future of Road Atlanta and building my new IT7 from what's left of the wreckage.

Email sent. Thanks Toni, for taking this on.

[Hotshoe]

Hi Toni,

.... Thank you for the interest.



... Rick Thompson #99 ITA #98 SM

[instigator]

thanks Toni,
I put my round of wedge in.


Kurt Jackson
IT7 #59 & ITA #00

[Toni]

Bump

Replys may be submitted until July 6. After that I will send the tabulation to the committee (the Committee is the Chiefs of Tech for the regions listed in the rules for the Website) for opinion. The REs will approve or disapprove the proposal at the mid year meeting on July 29.

Please put a reply either in the text or the subject box. An empty email doesn't really say much.

Toni Creighton

[racerpepe]

dear Toni i have spoken to over 10 it-7 drivers that are unaware of this vote and have as yet to recieve their ballot. i have not recieved my ballot yet either. thanks

[Toni]

Last Call for your opinion. Replies must be received by me before July 6 at [email protected]

I certainly respect the need for driver input into the rules making process. That is why I have requested input on the spec tire issue. I placed the request on the public forum so that there would be no question as to who had access to giving an opinion. It is open for all to respond.

The process is that the advisory board for the class makes a recommendation. The recommendation is presented to the Class Review Board (the chiefs of tech for the racing regions) and then their opinion is presented to the REs for approval or disapproval at the midyear meeting on July 29.

I very recently (not much more than 2 weeks ago) became the DA for tech upon the resignation of the previous DA. One of the duties of the DA is to chair the class review board and make the proposal to the REs at their mid year meeting. All replies will be counted and sent to the advisory board. Their recommendation will be presented to the Class Review Board and ultimately to the REs. Documentation will be retained.

The chairman for this year’s IT7 Advisory Board is Sam Henderson. Other Advisory Board members are Stan Hines, Lee Graser, Joe Varble, and Alex Jackson.

If you are concerned as to who expresses an opinion, call those you race with and spread the word. Talk to those on the committee. If you are in a region that races, talk to the chief of tech. They make the final proposal. Talk to your RE. They have the final vote and will make a decision even without any racer input. I’m collecting opinions to give to the Advisory Board, to the Class Review Board, and then to the REs.

This isn't a formal vote any more than the last one was. Not everyone will be reached this time. Not everyone was reached last year. This is an opportunity to express your opinion, nothing more. I will pass the opinions along as I am doing for all the other regional classes.

One way or the other the rules for IT7 and the other regional classes will not be changed just before the championship race this year. The rules will either stand as it is or will be changed for the 2007 season.

Do you want a spec tire rule for IT7 for the 2007 season?
Do you want an open tire rule for IT7 for the 2007 season?

Simple questions. You may discuss this here and privately as much as you want. The tally of opinions will be taken from those sent directly to me.

[email protected]

Toni Creighton
SEDiv DA Tech

[sgallimo]

Toni, I have a couple of points regarding the spec tire for IT-7. Regardless of a given IT-7 driver's like, or dislike, of the current IT-7 spec tire, he or she has to acknowledge the clear fact that the actual IT-7 driving community elected to go with the spec tire. I absolutely respect, and appreciate, your support of the notion that the drivers should have a voice in the rules that affect their regional class. I don't know what you meant by "a formal vote" so I don't know how the phrase applies to the previous spec tire vote. But I do know that that vote was a real vote by the, then active, IT-7 drivers and passed by a 5 to 1 margin. The framers of the IT-7 spec tire rule were given specific instructions to set up a vote by the drivers. They did so and received ballots by a vast majority of the active drivers. Those ballots showed an overwhelming desire to have a spec tire. I can't imagine of a more clear and succinct example of racers having a voice in the rules.

Just like the previous poster, I have yet to talk to another IT-7 driver that was aware of your request for opinions (although I didn't contact Ricky because I'd seen his post). So there will be a very large question as to who had access to giving an opinion. While I agree that the question is open for all to respond, I have a problem with the very minimal exposure (on the part of the complete community) the question will receive. Simply put I don't see how a simple posting on a public forum, not officially associated with the SCCA or SEDIV, can even remotely be considered to revoke, revise, or reaffirm an actual written vote performed by all of the IT-7 drivers. While I find the Improved Touring website to be an invaluable tool, I have to point out that it serves in no official capacity nor are we in a position to gauge its coverage. I've been trying to get the word out to as many of the affected drivers that I can but that fails miserably in comparison to a direct mailing (as was done before).

I did talk to my fellow Board of Directors members, to my RE, and to my region's Chief of Tech. Now my RE is armed with one person's opinion. While informative, one person's opinion simply can't be compared to the force of a conclusion reached by over 3/4ths of the affected drivers.

As for me, do I support a spec tire for IT-7? Yes. Why? Because the drivers were asked to vote and they voted to have one.

The CRB required a complete vote by the drivers in order to add a spec tire rule to the class rules and, baring a safety issue, they should require the same complete vote to change that rule.

Scott Gallimore
worker, nat comp license, IT-7 driver,
North Carolina Region Board of Directors, Member at Large

[steve s]

as stated to toni .i personally think that some of the members of the review board????? is trying to railroad a vote to implement the open tire rule.iguess they 're not as competetive as they thought they would be in ITA.
the spec tire brought out a lot of new cars in florida and some of them are actually winning because of the spec tire.i also voted for the spec tire.
i also spoke to some of the drivers in it-7 and they were not aware of any tire rule change or vote to change it.
i guess this is how SCCA runs it's business. the minority with power will force their way on the majority.

[tom_sprecher]

i guess this is how SCCA runs it's business. the minority with power will force their way on the majority.[/b]

If you think about that is how the world runs its business! I don’t know about the rest of you guys but I've learned you can't beat it. The best you can do it to make it work for you.

But, if you want pure democracy then be prepared for constant change based on current popular opinion. With that in mind there should not be a problem with reviewing the rule after a year of everyone running under it and having another vote. If it was a good idea then it will stand on its own merit. If not, and drivers do not like the results, it should be changed. Majority rules and chaos ensues.

I don't understand a need for a spec tire rule. Anybody who gets into racing thinking they can do it cheap is a fool and should consider another sport. If the price of one or two extra sets of tires a year is going to break your budget than you should consider other options.

Speaking of other options, who chose Toyo as the spec tire? They do not offer any contingencies that I am aware of. Free tires would seem like a good way to save money. Was there a vote on which tire?

It appears to me the logic used by the promoters of the IT7 spec tire rule is in line with what many others have done in our society over the past couple of decades. If there is a group who can not keep up then we all pay the price. For example…

Can’t compete – pass spec tire rule
Can’t make the grade - dumb down the curriculum
Can’t pay their own way – create welfare state
Can’t take care of themselves – take 15% payroll taxes from those who have to
Can’t drink responsibly – tougher DUI laws
Can’t keep from killing others – outlaw firearms for everyone
Can’t live off low pay – get a big union
Can’t pay for health care – raise premiums for those who do
Can’t do it – get the government to force those who can to do it.

It’s freaking BS. OK, rant over. We now continue with your regularly scheduled program.

[gprodracer]

Tom,

What a completely politically incorrect, while completely intelligent and completely correct post!

As for the spec tire deal, I don't know the history on how it came about, but I would presume that it was an attempt to keep the class costs down. Of course, look what cost containment has done for Spec Miata.
Look out if there is a push for IT7 to go National. We have seen the enemy, and he is us!! Just be glad you get a vote on the topic, not just handed down rules from a group in Topeka.. I like to think that everyone has good intentions for the club, we just need to vote in (or out) those that we feel don't have our best interests in mind when making those decisions for us. (Just for the record, this post is not directed at anyone... just rambling off my opinion)
Good Luck on the re-build...if this was easy, everyone would be doing it!

Mark P. Larson
CFR #164010

[lateapex911]

Speaking of other options, who chose Toyo as the spec tire? They do not offer any contingencies that I am aware of. Free tires would seem like a good way to save money.
[/b]

Contingencies pay to the few, while a spec tire that has a controlled price, and a longer life, benefits all.

It appears to me the logic used by the promoters of the IT7 spec tire rule is in line with what many others have done in our society over the past couple of decades. If there is a group who can not keep up then we all pay the price. For example…

Can’t compete – pass spec tire rule
Can’t make the grade - dumb down the curriculum
Can’t pay their own way – create welfare state...............
[/b]

That's stretch...to say the least! How is that even close to the other examples??? If the tire is the same for everybody, and the chassis and motor the same, how can the cream not rise??

If the tires are able to hold lap times for more sessions, doesn't it mean that, the drivers with less budget have more chances to compete...on a more equal footing???

Conversly, if, say, the savings amount to $800 or $1600 (a couple sets of tires) in a season, that budget amount is now availble for better hardware, or more actual racing, not wasted as marbles at the side of the track. How can that NOT be good?

How is a spec tire equivilent to a welfare state?? Are you being taxed to pay for someones tires?

I don't know the mechanics of the "poll" but it appears that last year it was done comprehensively...if this poll is any less comprehensive, then the drivers have a huge issue...but you need to seperate the methods from the spec tire concept.

I hope you all can sort this out, and get a fair representation of what the drivers..all the drivers...want.

[crushed]

How many you have actually tested with Hoosiers and kept track of how long they actually last? I have a set with over 18 heat cycles on them and they are still turning quick times. Talk to the front running SM guys and see how many of them will put 18 heat cycles on a set of Toyos.

New Hoosiers are not like the old Hoosiers, they last significantly longer. Plus the guys who win are rewarded with cheaper tires. Shouldn't the guys who win be rewarded?

Last years poll was nowhere close to comprehensive, most of the front running southeast drivers (read: guys who would vote against a spec tire) never received a ballot.

Toyo doesn't even make a properly sized 13" tire. I still can't imagine why anyone would want to run on a 60 series tire. I'm all for a spec tire, but why not spec a tire that doesn't suck and actually works on the car instead of jumping on the spec Toyo bandwagon?

[sgallimo]

snip...
Last years poll was nowhere close to comprehensive, most of the front running southeast drivers (read: guys who would vote against a spec tire) never received a ballot.

...snip
[/b]

Crushed, please list the front running southeast drivers that didn't receive a ballot last year?

[lateapex911]

..... Plus the guys who win are rewarded with cheaper tires. Shouldn't the guys who win be rewarded?

[/b]

Is this a Professional series??

Your other points are well taken, and you'll notice I discussed the philosophy rather than the actual manufacturers.

[crushed]

I'm not going to name names, but at the first race after this happened I think only 2 of the 7 or 8 IT-7 drivers at the track that weekend actually recieved a ballot.

My friend who drove my car for 1 race did recieve a ballot. I think that is terribly unfair as he doesn't really have a vested interest in what happens to the class.

If a driver doesnt do at least 3 races each year (and therefore not a contender for championship points anyway), they don't deserve the right to vote on this issue.

[Z3_GoCar]

How many you have actually tested with Hoosiers and kept track of how long they actually last? I have a set with over 18 heat cycles on them and they are still turning quick times. Talk to the front running SM guys and see how many of them will put 18 heat cycles on a set of Toyos.

New Hoosiers are not like the old Hoosiers, they last significantly longer.....


[/b]

I wonder why the new Hoosiers last longer... could it be because they've now got to take Toyo's seriously?? Without the Spec tires do you think Hoosier whould change their compounds to last longer? No more likely tire wear/compound going off were not an issues untill Toyo's became the spec tire du-jour.

Plus the guys who win are rewarded with cheaper tires. Shouldn't the guys who win be rewarded?....

....Toyo doesn't even make a properly sized 13" tire. I still can't imagine why anyone would want to run on a 60 series tire. I'm all for a spec tire, but why not spec a tire that doesn't suck and actually works on the car instead of jumping on the spec Toyo bandwagon?
[/b]

First you get the plastic bowling trophy and the checkerd flag, and now you want cheaper tires.
Spec tires DO work at cost containment, that's a proven fact. It's actually one of the area's that does work as advertised. Don't the guys who have no chance already subsidized the winners trophy enough? When I was Karting I ran the Bridgestone YBN's. Now if you want to run an open tire why not go to a class where the tires are open, a spec class shouldn't be an open tire class, unless the tire/compound of the day is part of spec racing. Even Pro's run spec tires, Speed World Challenge on Hankook's, need I say more?

James

p.s. I don't have a iron in this fire as I'm on the left coast, but I hate it when people bash spec tires just because their favorite tire did not make the cut.

[crushed]

Now if you want to run an open tire why not go to a class where the tires are open, a spec class shouldn't be an open tire class, unless the tire/compound of the day is part of spec racing. Even Pro's run spec tires, Speed World Challenge on Hankook's, need I say more?
[/b]

I was in a class with open tire, Has any IT class ever had a spec tire before? I don't think so.

Besides that, IT-7 is NOT a spec class! need I say more?