Should IT be Regional???

[lateapex911]

One other thought....

I'm not a Runoffs guy, but I seem to remember talk of entry fees going into a "tow fund" that is paid by a set milage stat to those who qualify and show up at the Runoffs.

I can tell you that I thought about that at every gas stop between Atanta and NYC after the ARRCs............

Is that still in force? I'm sure it's not huge, but a few hundred is still a few hundred, and I'd rather have it than not, LOL.

[dickita15]

uh jake this is a sum zero game. the cost to fund the tow fund must be included in the entry fee. it is collected from all and distributed based on distance to runoffs. I suppose this year North east guys will do a little better with that. mid div guys will pay in and get nothing.

[Z3_GoCar]

One other thought....

I'm not a Runoffs guy, but I seem to remember talk of entry fees going into a "tow fund" that is paid by a set milage stat to those who qualify and show up at the Runoffs.

I can tell you that I thought about that at every gas stop between Atanta and NYC after the ARRCs............

Is that still in force? I'm sure it's not huge, but a few hundred is still a few hundred, and I'd rather have it than not, LOL.
[/b]

Hey Jake,

Be careful about what you wish for with that. A So-Cal Prod racer got stung in Arizona heading East by Federally trained DOT officers. He found that by accepting tow fund money amoung other benefits, you are considered a "commercial enterprise" and have to go through the hoops, including registering an RV as a commercial vehicle.

James

[tom_sprecher]

Without trying to offend anyone, I think it's safe to say that IT is pretty strong all along the East Coast. All you have to do is look at the NARRC, MARRS, and SARRC series to see that. I'm not sure why that's the case. Is it because there are more tracks in the East? [/b]

When comparing various areas of this great country of ours, we all should realize we are not equally distributed. Check out the link.

Population Density

When people are spread so thin in some places it's hard to arrive at any meaninful participation comparisons.

On the other hand I guess that says something for the sparsely populated areas and the nuts that live there.

[ggnagy]

Hey Jake,

Be careful about what you wish for with that. A So-Cal Prod racer got stung in Arizona heading East by Federally trained DOT officers. He found that by accepting tow fund money amoung other benefits, you are considered a "commercial enterprise" and have to go through the hoops, including registering an RV as a commercial vehicle.

James
[/b]

ok, now that is just stretching it to nationals-bash. There are any number of items that were cited as renumeration which could classify one as being a "commercial enterprise". Sponsorship, contingency prizes of money or goods, even a freaking 5$ trophy. It's not like the IT fields are not full of cars with only meatballs and sanction stickers. If anything, a car with a Pro-IT or NASA sticker would have less of a leg to stand on that a nationals driver who collects from a "tow fund".

The issues that the Mazdatrix guys faced were issues that almost every racer risks when towing anything more than an open trailer.

[RacerBill]

I hear some theories that IT will become more expensive to run up front at Regionals if IT goes National. I believe that the assumption there is that those deciding to run for a National championship with 1) spend more money preparing their cars and 2) they will continue to run the same number of regionals that they do now. I can see 1) being probable. However, unless they have REALLY deep pockets, will they spend the money on both more prep and more races? Yes, there might be one or two that could do this. As I said to a non-racing friend the other day, if I had unlimited funds and unlimited time, I could probably race every weekend from March until November, somewhere in the US! Just waiting for some of that excess descretionary income to trickle down into my pockets!

OK, let's say that they would. What would be an alternative solution to those who would spend more money on their cars to compete for a National Championship. How about working (cooperating) with the Production class folks and providing reasonable migration paths for our cars into the existing National classes. Would this provide a way for presently IT cars to compete in National classes? Yes. Would they be able to do this without making any changes to their cars? Probably not, but they would be spending additonal funds anyway. Would this thin out the IT car ranks? Probably, but not that much. And it would make IT more attractive for folks entering the world of racing by providing good racing as well as an alternative to selling teh old car and buying a new one if they wanted to move up. Not using this as an example of a car that would be competitive in all these classes, but my 83 Dodge Shelby is listed in ITA, F Prod (limited prep), E Prod, and GT3. In the immortal words of El Galo "The quality of the rape depends on what you pay!" (The Fantastics).

Oh, sorry, I forgot. I used the word 'cooperating'. (sarcastic mode off). Hey, I think it could be a win-win proposition. Guys get to go to the National Runoffs, Prod gets more cars, IT gets some new champions.

Remember what Lincoln said "you can't please all of the people all of the time".

[Ron Earp]

When comparing various areas of this great country of ours, we all should realize we are not equally distributed. Check out the link.

Population Density

[/b]

That ties in nicely with what I was discussing at CMP a few weeks ago. Why IS the SCCA headquartered in Topeka and why are the runoffs there now? Not many blue shapes out in the middle......

[orlando_wrx]

More expense to be competitive in IT if IT goes national? God forbid there are more fully prepped cars in IT. Maybe this is what IT needs so the true potential of classed cars becomes apparent. Racing was never intended to be an inexpensive sport. SCCA provides a place to run for fun, but seriously, if you want to be a front runner you need to prep for it. There are also plenty of people who don't have top $$ programs who consitently run up front thanks to their genious home brew engineering. These people step up to the plate and compete with guys who have $$ to spend, and money can't buy the knowledge that these people posess. A national championship in IT (not necessarily the runoffs) will not change things very much, unless you plan on going for the gusto; in which case you will need to step up your game. An insurgence of full prep cars will make things easier on the ITAC for classification/weight decisions, and help to fine tune their fomulas for future classifications. You simply can't be expected to be taken seriously running around in a half-baked car and bitchin about the guy up front who has built to the limit of the law. I know I won't be anywhere near the front for some time to come, even in a "full-tilt" effort, but we had a chassis sitting around and I figured I'd give the road less traveled a shot. I hope to be somewhere near the front within a year or two, but I'll (hopefully) get there by developing my goods, not trying to gain advantages because I haven't built the car. There are way too many people with half prepped cars bitchin about this and that right now (not necessarily the cost). I might sometimes jest playing devils advocate and stirring "stuff" up, but come on... a grid full of proper IT cars would add a whole new spice to our club and gain a bit more respect for our class(es).

edit- having a bad day so maybe posted in a harsh tone, but valid points so leaving as is.

[charrbq]

That ties in nicely with what I was discussion at CMP a few weeks ago. Why IS the SCCA headquartered in Topeka and why are the runoffs there now? Not many blue shapes out in the middle......
[/b]

I&#39;m not clarevoyant, or Claire anybody, but my info says you&#39;d have to ask Steve Johnson for the answer to that question...and he&#39;s not answering his phone. <_<

[zracre]

what would be really neat is if someone made the same map with all SCCA regions and their population numbers...

[Ron Earp]

what would be really neat is if someone made the same map with all SCCA regions and their population numbers...
[/b]

Think the Topeka region has a huge number of members in comparison to the other regions?

[lateapex911]

SCCA used to be based in Westport CT..........and thats where I&#39;m from, 40 miles NE of NYC. Pretty significant population area. But....I bet that our cost to pay the rent, overhead and saleries of the staff would easily triple if the club remained here. Obviously, HQ needs certain resources, but it doesn&#39;t have to be next to the Rolex Jewelery and the Mitchels Custom Tailor Store, right across from the Banana Republic Store.

[lateapex911]

How about working (cooperating) with the Production class folks and providing reasonable migration paths for our cars into the existing National classes. Would this provide a way for presently IT cars to compete in National classes? Yes. (?) Would they be able to do this without making any changes to their cars? Probably not, but they would be spending additonal funds anyway. Would this thin out the IT car ranks? Probably, but not that much.
[/b]

Some thoughts on that line.

I have a couple issues with that, mostly philosophical.

First, I think IT is a strong category within the SCCA structure, and those that i have talked to up the line agree. IF IT went to the Runoffs, classes like S and A would be among the better participated.

Why is that? Because it&#39;s cheap? Not really...because it isn&#39;t THAT cheap...at least not at the front of a 25 S car grid.

It seems to us, from the feedback we get, that IT is strong because of the "line in the sand" that the category tries to hold in regards to prep levels. Time forces certain evolutions, but the ITAC is strongly in favor of trying to maintain a status quo in terms of prep level, as they feel that the long term success of IT has been, and will contiinue to be, mainly due to that balance point.

Secondly, the basic philosophy of IT is a categorical one. Good for one, good for all. As in no line item exceptions are allowed unless it&#39;s impossible to avoid. That&#39;s not the case in Prod, where seemingly every car negotiates it&#39;s own package. This for that car, that for this car, and so on. Competition adjustments are the rule in Prod, but not in IT.

These are significant issue in the melding of the categories.

Currently, there are moves afoot to allow better cross category migration, but....the basic philosophies remain. I added a bold question mark to your quote, because I disagree with the word "Yes" there. If you allow IT cars to go to the Runoffs as LP Prod cars, they aren&#39;t really IT cars...they now fall under all the philosophies and rules that Prod runs under.

[Bill Miller]

I&#39;d be willing to wager that most of the ITS cars in a Runoffs&#39;s field would put a large part of the EP grid to shame, both from a prep level as well as a performance level. Introduce ITR, and make all of IT eligible for the Runoffs, and watch the migration from EP (and quite possibly GT2 and GT3).

[JamesB]

I personally understand those in IT that want to go national. I can&#39;t find a good reason to say it should or it shouldn&#39;t. What I picture is that running in the top 5-10 will be next to impossible even at the regional level unless you have every possible penny in development in the car and driver.

That just makes me wonder, is it worth it to even want to be competitive in IT if this where to happen? Roght now, I would love to be. However, I have some work before I can make it up front in ITB (driver as much as car.) But right now it is possible if I can get the seat time and monies properly funding it.

IT going national just makes me think it will take 2x as much time and money to get up front then it would right now. That does not appeal to me since the only reason I decided on IT is because SM costs are out of control compared to the low cost spec class it was 4-5 years ago. I dont get into the bump and grind, in the 02 season when I started working ITB/C group used to be called bash and crash, follwed by spec masher(miata)

[Bill Miller]

I personally understand those in IT that want to go national. I can&#39;t find a good reason to say it should or it shouldn&#39;t. What I picture is that running in the top 5-10 will be next to impossible even at the regional level unless you have every possible penny in development in the car and driver.

That just makes me wonder, is it worth it to even want to be competitive in IT if this where to happen? Roght now, I would love to be. However, I have some work before I can make it up front in ITB (driver as much as car.) But right now it is possible if I can get the seat time and monies properly funding it.

IT going national just makes me think it will take 2x as much time and money to get up front then it would right now. That does not appeal to me since the only reason I decided on IT is because SM costs are out of control compared to the low cost spec class it was 4-5 years ago. I dont get into the bump and grind, in the 02 season when I started working ITB/C group used to be called bash and crash, follwed by spec masher(miata)
[/b]

That&#39;s just it James, it won&#39;t be that way. For a good example, just look at the Prod, SS, and T programs. Look at the guys that run Prod cars at the MARRS races. Now look at where those cars are w.r.t. the various lap records for the different Prod classes at Summit Point. Notice how you hardly see any of the folks that run the April National at the MARRS races. That&#39;s because they focus their effort and $$$ on running Nationals, and going to the Runoffs. Why would you expect IT to be any different?

[zracre]

SM got pricey because so many migrated there...50-60 cars in 1 class! a spec class where you can open the motor...a formula for a real expensive class!! If SCCA made our best subscribed classes national and kept the same format (regional national weekends) im sure it would work out. everyone would have a place to race. As for LP Prod cars, I think it is a great idea! IMHO the only difficult thing would be tires...but prod runs with IT now and it works out. As for $$ IT would still go thru the roof for a top prep car...probably along the lines of 45k for a top A car instead of 25k...but anyone could still build one cheap as we have been for years. I would just like to see SCCA promoted more and maybe a little more visibility for the clubs bread and butter. my $.02

[JamesB]

Bill,

I don&#39;t know. If you ask me, most of the guys who run in MARRS are just tired of running national. But what happens when everything is pretty much national level. That means almost ever class is national, and if your running in ITA and have a break between nationals, why not come out and run the MARRS race to keep yourself sharp? I see that happening in SM this season. Maybe I am very wrong, I just dont see any adders or subtractors for the good of all.

zracer, go read the FasTrack, there is 2 years of financials posted. Standard auditing format I get on all my investment reports.

[Z3_GoCar]

ok, now that is just stretching it to nationals-bash. There are any number of items that were cited as renumeration which could classify one as being a "commercial enterprise". Sponsorship, contingency prizes of money or goods, even a freaking 5$ trophy. It&#39;s not like the IT fields are not full of cars with only meatballs and sanction stickers. If anything, a car with a Pro-IT or NASA sticker would have less of a leg to stand on that a nationals driver who collects from a "tow fund".

The issues that the Mazdatrix guys faced were issues that almost every racer risks when towing anything more than an open trailer.
[/b]

Sorry didn&#39;t mean for it to come off as a bash and those would be some of the amoung other things. Just trying to point out the dark side to having a tow fund.

James

[Bill Miller]

Bill,

I don&#39;t know. If you ask me, most of the guys who run in MARRS are just tired of running national. But what happens when everything is pretty much national level. That means almost ever class is national, and if your running in ITA and have a break between nationals, why not come out and run the MARRS race to keep yourself sharp? I see that happening in SM this season. Maybe I am very wrong, I just dont see any adders or subtractors for the good of all.

zracer, go read the FasTrack, there is 2 years of financials posted. Standard auditing format I get on all my investment reports.
[/b]

That&#39;s just it James, if you&#39;re going to spend $1000 &#39;just to keep yourself sharp&#39;, why wouldn&#39;t you want to do it at the perceived top level (National races)? I&#39;m not trying to argue w/ you, as it&#39;s really all speculation. As I said, look at how many of the Prod guys from the April National run the MARRS series. And the ones that do, look at where they were on the results sheet at the National.