Should IT be Regional???

[dyoungre]

Aren't we simply talking about the difference between a restricted regional, and a regional? Restricted would not provide 'championship' points, and allow the region-specific (non-GCR) classes as well? Get rid of 'National' weekends, and provide 'National' points at any non-restricted regional.

I don't care about the run-offs, and I don't really worry about cost creep. I'd love to have the flexibility of race dates that would result from allowing me to run during 'national', regional, or both events.

[Bill Miller]

Something to keep in mind, that I think a lot of folks are missing: no one - except maybe Bill, though I'm not sure - is proposing that IT be removed from the Regional program, just that IT be allowed to be added to the National program.

Nothing else will change, Regionals will still be there, likely with full fields...
[/b]

Greg,

I'm not propsing that IT be removed from the Regional progam. Not even close. I'm simply proposing that ITS, ITA, ITB, and ITC (and hopefully ITR) be allowed to race at Nationals. Hell, it doesn't even matter if you still call them Nationals and Regionals, the key thing is to get rid of the 'Regional-only' constraint on IT. And the more I think about it, that's really all that needs to be done. No need to change the name of any races, or any license requirements (although I think the current license distinctions are silly), just dump the 'Regional-only' restriction for IT. More than likely, Nationals will need to add 2 run groups to their schedule for a race weekend. If ITR comes about, those cars will more than likely slot in well w/ T1/2/3, and AS. Depending on field size, you can probably run ITS/A or ITB/C w/ SSB/C, so maybe only one additional run group might be needed.

This is one of the reasons I was looking for additional input on this, to see what the overall goal should be, and what we would actually need to achieve it.

Hey Dave, I just noticed that you're right around the corner from me. Where in Somerset do you live? I used to live on JFK Blvd. and now live maybe 15 min. away. Always looking for someone local to do some bench racing with and maybe share a few beers.

[ddewhurst]

Fastrack response:

Thanks for your input.

[paulydee]

I feel bad deciding to post 7 pages into this thread.

Anyway, here are some of my thoughts whatever they might be worth (nothing at the least)

I would like to be able to drive at a Runoffs "like" event. That is not to say I want to drive at THE Runoffs. For one reason because it is not being held at MidOhio anymore. That is personal preference. I would rather not drive to Kansas flatland country. I would not be opposed the closer scrutineering that goes on at national events.

Another point is that I like is the current double regional format that is being used in my division. So that being said I would not drive the "National" level events for the one race format. At the same time (I am going to contradict myself here) It would be nice to have at least one 20min session to get warmed up before a legit qualifying. But that is getting off topic.

I also agree with the class distinctions being silly. What makes GP or GT3 any different than ITS or ITA that they deserve the National classification. I realize that this was a philosophy that was put together a long time ago, but why won't SCCA keep up with the times?

Did any of that make sense?

[mustanghammer]

I feel bad deciding to post 7 pages into this thread.

Anyway, here are some of my thoughts whatever they might be worth (nothing at the least)

I would like to be able to drive at a Runoffs "like" event. That is not to say I want to drive at THE Runoffs. For one reason because it is not being held at MidOhio anymore. That is personal preference. I would rather not drive to Kansas flatland country. I would not be opposed the closer scrutineering that goes on at national events.

Another point is that I like is the current double regional format that is being used in my division. So that being said I would not drive the "National" level events for the one race format. At the same time (I am going to contradict myself here) It would be nice to have at least one 20min session to get warmed up before a legit qualifying. But that is getting off topic.

I also agree with the class distinctions being silly. What makes GP or GT3 any different than ITS or ITA that they deserve the National classification. I realize that this was a philosophy that was put together a long time ago, but why won't SCCA keep up with the times?

Did any of that make sense?
[/b]

Heartland Park is not flat and neither is the countryside around it. You have to drive 120 miles farther west on I-70 to start to see "flat." And before you see "flat" (out around Salina Ks) you drive through something called the Flint Hills and they REALLY aren't flat! Allot of the flat plains that Kansas is famous for are in Colorado, by the way!

Anyway, I ran the Restricted Regional that was a part of the National at HPT last weekend. The extra track time on Saturday for the practice session was okay but since we (IT drivers) didn't get a National length race on Sunday the extra track time wan't that big of a deal. I prefer a double Regional because the IT car counts are higher, there are more opportunities for points and more chances for Kumho dollars.

I think IT type prep levels in a National Class would be popular. Limited Prep production, while not cheap, does prove this to a certain extent. Look at EP RX7's and FP Miata's as examples of cars that are approachable to many people and therefore popular and numerous. The same could be said for SM even though this class costs more than anticipated.

It has been my experience that many would be racers make race car purchases based on whether or not a car is in a National Class. This is true even if they have no intention of taking the car they are shopping for to the Run Offs. The perception is that a Nationals eligible car is more likely to retain it's value.

I guess I support a lower prep level car classification as eligible for Nationals competition. This could be IT or something new. Anyway it happens to come about it will be popular.

[DavidM]

There are a few. One, you don't want to have too many National races. You want them to be true qualifers so that the best of teh best in each Region actually QUALIFY (novel concept) for the runoffs. You want racers from all over competing for the PRIVLEDGE to go and run for the National Championship. Right now in NeDiv (what, the second largest Div in the Country?) we have 8 Nationals weekends at 7 different tracks - not bad. NeDiv has at least 22 weekends of Regional racing.

Another is that the track time at a National is mandated. You don't want 400 cars at a National or else it won't run. You need the separation in the larger Regions.

Also, the Championship series we are all used to would go away. The NARRC, SARRC, MARRS, insert your series here is now gone. You COULD run them piggy-back with the National stuff (and that may work) but it just makes sense to have them seperate. Nationals guys aren't going to run more than they have to.

During these weekends you also can't run any fun stuff like enduro's or have Regional only classes like ITE, SPO, SPU - there just isn't time.



AB
[/b]

I guess I have two main issues with a national/regional separation:

1) You now have to pick if you want to try and qualify (which you are not guaranteed of doing) for the runoffs by attending national weekends or if you want to run in a regional series, like the SARRC, and attend regional weekends. I like the regional weekends because you normally get lots of track time and I like the regional series, but it'd be cool to be able to qualify for the runoffs. I wouldn't be able to do both unless I attend national and regional weekends.

2) I think the regional level competition will be diluted if the best guys all go to national weekends. As I stated before, I'd rather finish mid-pack racing against the best than finish first with the best not racing. Maybe I'm weird.

I'd probably support IT being inlcuded in the National classes since the races have got to be better than the ones I've watched at the run-offs the past few years, but I'm not a big fan national/regional or any type of class distinctions. It's too much like major league/minor league or whatever you want to call it. That's why I like making all the classes equal and just having race weekends.

Somebody asked how you would determine who went to the run-offs if IT didn't participate in national weekends. A simple answer is to use the rankings from the regional series. The top X from the SARRC, MARRS, etc. get to go. Not perfect, but it would work.

David

[BobsAuto]

Back in the late 80's, there was also the talk about making IT a national class as well as regional. It was pointed out back then that if it went National, those folks running for the National Championship would dominate and the class, as it was originally intended, for the folks with limited funds who want to race the "older" showroom stock cars they had in the back 40, would no longer be a fun place to race for the newbies and limited fun goers. I do agree, that since it's evolution in the mid 80's, IT has become more competitive and more costly. I look at what Raymond and Stephen have invested in their cars and remember scrounging for used tires for their Dad and knowing that THAT was the only way he could race.
Yes, the costs have gone up, but seriously, don't you think the costs would go even higher if it were a National Class. Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned making a regional type IT championship runoff thing like the ARRC. The NARRC runoffs were like that back in my day.

Note, the above comments in no way reflect what my kids feel, just what I, as a former racer who would love to get back into it if I could: a)afford it and b)physically be able to
feel about the ideas. You all have good thoughts and ideas, but remember to play devil's advocate on yourselves before you go for any changes in your playground.

[Geo]

Yes, the costs have gone up, but seriously, don't you think the costs would go even higher if it were a National Class. [/b]

I do. I think those who don't are either naive or have an agenda. If it can happen in BTCC (see my previous quote from Race Tech) it will surely happen in IT.

[Andy Bettencourt]

It still depends on where you are. ITS and ITA in the New England Region can't get any 'more expensive'. You wanna run against Serra's stuff or Blaney's stuff, you had better bring a gun to the gun fight.

Overall, costs will rise because people with money will be drawn into the class to a simpler (!) set of prep than most anything. With popularity comes money and with money comes better prep and better prep brings the need for all to step it up.

All it takes is for one 'regular' guy to come to your home town track with a golden goose and everyone has to react. There is nothing preventing it now, National status just raises the chances.

[Greg Amy]

I think those who don't are either naive or have an agenda.[/b]

...or live in areas of the country - sorry, George - where people are seriously building cars to the limit of the rules. You saw it at your venture to the ARRC, Geo: there are people spending TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to build IT cars, certainly in at least ITS and ITA. You simply CANNOT be at the pointy end of the ITA or ITS field in the Northeast until and unless you're spending a BARE MINIMUM of $20k on a race car. Ask me, I know.

You actually think that folks spent less last year on their Spec Miatas than they're spending this year? Talk about naive!!

Until you folks in the middle of the country venture out of your small corners of the world and see what's really happening out there, please stop assigning labels or ideals. And I can say this with extreme authority, given I raced half my life in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Tennessee, and Missouri, then half up here in the northeast -- been there, done that; what about you? - GA

[ddewhurst]

***Until you folks in the middle of the country venture out of your small corners of the world***

I beleive the CenDiv sends some pretty fair cars to the ARRC.

[lateapex911]

Agreed....

Will it cost more? Depends...will you spend more??

And or what?

If you want to race on old tires, and stock shocks, you will still be able to. But if it'sa popular class, you won't win. If you are winning now in an underprepared car, it's probably becouse very few are showing up.

IT is a bit of a regional deal....in some regions it's an cakealk, in others, its a dogfight to the death. I've spoken to a few guys who raced in other areas of the country where they saw 4-7 ITA cars at a race, and moved to areas where the ITA count was 25 plus. It took them a year to get used to being shocked at the number of different guys every race, and the prep level and speed of some of the cars.

IT is spotty in some areas, but has deep talent in others. If it goes National, that won't change, but i think that the designed prep level of IT will draw those who are in other classes because they have to be to run at the Runoffs.

As Andy points out, that will make it more popular, and therefore, more expensive. .....if you want to spend more.

But...with large fields comes great racing throughout the pack...so if you don't mind that your actual finish position went from a 8th in a 16 car field to a 14th in a 24 car field, but you had a great race with another equal guy, then it will be the same.

[Z3_GoCar]

....But...with large fields comes great racing throughout the pack...so if you don't mind that your actual finish position went from a 8th in a 16 car field to a 14th in a 24 car field, but you had a great race with another equal guy, then it will be the same.
[/b]

Sounds just like SM racing. Out here they started awarding mid-pack points, you'd actually loose points for finishing too high. Anyways six cars in a field, I'm sure we'd all agree, is too small, but depending on the track, more than 20-30 is IMHO too many. Something in the middle is Goldylocks

James

[Bill Miller]

Without trying to offend anyone, I think it's safe to say that IT is pretty strong all along the East Coast. All you have to do is look at the NARRC, MARRS, and SARRC series to see that. I'm not sure why that's the case. Is it because there are more tracks in the East? There are 8 or 9 tracks in both the NE and SE Divisions. That's a lot of tracks to race at. With so many tracks, I think that's why you see such popular IT racing. But that's not really the issue.

For those that say that it will cost more if IT goes National. I agree, it will, if you want to run at the front and go to the Runoffs. But will it cost more than going for an ARRC win? I think that it will cost more because you'll be racing against more people that want to win the championship. Just look at a National SM program vs. a Regional SM program. I would expect the person w/ the National program to be spending more.

I think IT being National let's Regional racing be just that Regional racing. It will be a local, more relaxed, entry-level program. Will you have people that will show up w/ mega-rigs and mega-budgets? I would expect so, but at least now, the IT folks w/ the mega-rigs and the mega-budgets will have an option. Just look at all the other National classes that run Regional races. I think it's pretty safe to say that for the most part, their budgets are lower than their counterparts that run National races. And I think that speaks to Bob's comment about the folks going for the championship dominanting the IT classes. If you give them an alternate venue, they most likely won't run as many Regional races, leaving Regionals for people to just go racing and have fun.

Will it hurt car counts at Regionals? More than likely, but I'm not totally sure. I think that you could make the case that you'd get more people to bring out lower-budget cars, because now they feel that they have a chance w/o spending $30k - $50k on an IT car. I've seen more Prod cars at some MARRS Regionals than I have at some Nationals. To me, that's an indicator that people will still come out and have fun.

[Knestis]

We have to be careful that we don't define "more expensive" strictly in terms of, "I won't be able to compete with a less-than-full-boat effort." The cause-and-effect chain is more like...

Increased interest > Increased willingness of some to commit $$$ > Increased cost to run up front

The suggestion here is that National status will increase interest, fueling cost escalation. That presumes that the interest is not already high enough to reach saturation or a point of diminishing returns for the racing dollar. The difference between a $10K ITA car and a $20K ITA car is pretty huge - between the $20K and $30K versions, that diminishes.

Greg's point is that the NER competitive market is already at that point and, with a "national" market, we have to look across the nation, rather than just at pockets where it might still be possible to run up front with something not built all the way to the rules. That might be a primary difference between Regional and National status - we all have to swim in a bigger pond. I dont' mind, frankly 'cuz I know I'm a little fish.

K

[dickita15]

There is obviously a difference throughout the country. On the east coast there are lots of regional races. I found it interesting when I visited Texas for example how few races were in the division and how many of them were Nationals. If I lived down there owning a regional only car would severely limit the opportunities to race. I would probably not race IT. If IT goes national our classes would be a more viable choice in those parts of the country bring more competition and raising the bar. Yes it would cost more to win there. But the racing would be better.

[Bill Miller]

What about the parts of the country that primarily run joint Regional/National races on the same weekend?

[dickita15]

It seems like usually the regional drivers complain they do not get treated fairly in those situations.

[Bill Miller]

Why does that not surprise me??? The way I understand it, the only reason they run the combined races is because they can't get enough cars to the track to run a National by itself.

[shwah]

I like the Mid-Div joint weekends, but of course they let IT race on the 'National' day so that makes it easy to like.

I still think folks are overstating the cost issue. If you are a checkbook racer it will always be expensive, it is now, and it will be a bit more if people flock to a national class. If you don't have much racing budget, and I am sure that this is a big group, you learn how to make things work on your own, and you would be surprised at how often it works as well or better the way you get it done compared to the method of buying the consensus 'best stuff'. Half the fun for me is the engineering competition that this sport is. If competition gets better, some folks will spend more, and some folks will spend more and longer nights in the garage making something work - some people of both types will meet the challenge and go faster.

To the topic at hand, I could still give or take national status. Not a big deal to me at all, since I have always ended up with someone fun to race as is.