LRP's great improvement "The Widow Maker"

[eprodrx7]

Nice job. Way to make an unsafe corner more dangerous, except for one race a year that is. This is in car vid from labor day MX5 race. I just keep asking myself why does the corner station have to be there?
http://www.over6racing.com/videos/lrp06_crash.wmv

[Jeremy Billiel]

John - I have not driven LRP yet this year, but what is now there that caused the issue in the video? Does the armco protrude out for some reason? The car looked as though it cleared the flag station on the left.

[eprodrx7]

The problem is that the runoff room that was created was not carried all the way up and over the top of the hill. The corner station is still right where it has been for the last 50 years. So the armco comes back to the track almost perpendicular to traffic.

[gran racing]

Way to make an unsafe corner more dangerous, except for one race a year that is. [/b]

How exactly did they make is "more dangerous"? On the bottom of the downhill, they pushed the armco back. This allows some room on the bottom of the hill in case there's an incident or they know they are going in too hard some extra space.

Having a corner worker station on the top of the hill is absolutely necessary. Not sure if you're a driver or not...when on the track going up the hill, the track beyond it is blind. There are often times people who spin after the top of the hill, and the only way oncoming drivers know this is because of the corner workers.

Yeah, it might be nice if there were some extra runoff room, but if it were paved, don't think I (and most other drivers) would then start passing on the outside of that turn. In the end, I'm not sure if this would make things safer.

Personally, the changes they made at lime rock were much nicer than I anticipated. At least some effort to make the track better was made (regardless of the reason why it was done).

[RSTPerformance]

Dave-

I have to disagree with you on this topic... although I wont fully disagree till after this weekends National when I get a look at the track. For me anyplace where a guardrail or jersey barior is perpendicular to the flow of traffic I think it is a MAJOR accident waiting to happen. I know in my car if I needed "extra" runoof room it would be at the flag station, thus I anticipate if/when I crash in the uphill it will be a head on shot into the flag station. Not safe for me or the corner workers.

I will check it out this weekend and get my final thoghts.


Raymond

[gran racing]

Ray, I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to push the whole guardrail back quite a ways (like turn one at the Glen). My only point was that the track improved safety wise, not the other way around.

Being the silly guy that I am, I still talked with some of the GrandAm guys to see if there were any new passing opportunites with the extended pavement on the bottom of the hill. (I haven't driven yet either since the improvements.) Guess not.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I watched the video. Please tell me how this paving of that area 'caused' the driver to hit the armco. Pavement there or not, turning to the outside of that car at speed without slowing would have had the same result.

Now if you wanted to complain that they didn't 'flatten' the armco, then go ahead, but to infer that the extra pavement (which is not racing surface) was somehow the cause of that accident is not true IMHO.

AB

[RSTPerformance]

Andy-

agreed... the car still would have crashed, and in this case, it probably would have been worse the old way...

I am just scared that someone is going to run wide and hit that wall head on at full speed. The old way you at least would have bounced off of it... the car still would be junk yard scrap but it might have been less of an impact... I am speacking though from a FWD experience where you need to keep his foot in it to try and pull through. If you don't make it (such as Matt at NHIS) then it will be a hard hit.

I am not going to argue if it is safer or not, cuase I am sure it is to most, however I think it may have added a new hazard

Raymond "My final judgment will come this weekend when I see it in person!!!" Blethen

[lateapex911]

Wow...Jim went around FAST! And he still won the race? Impressive.

I think Jason (Siani, the driver of the Miata that hit) would have been in doo doo pre OR post modifications. Last year, he would have wiped the side off the car. This year, he nosed it into a unmovable barrier.

Probably more damage this year.

It all depends on the tangent you go off at. Before the changes, nearly any tangent was painful. Now, if you have an issue early corner, you have a lot more room before you hit something, and that something is softer, as there is more room to stack tires 2 or 3 deep as opposed to one deep as before.

But........if you go off on a mid to late corner tangent, you are no longer hitting the barrier side first, as the barrier now has a bit of "catchers mitt" to it. So, you'll stop, as opposed to bounce. More of a head on than a glancing blow.

So, it's a trade off. Better for some crashes, worse for others. IMHO, of course.

[eprodrx7]

As Jake said it's better for some types of as opposed to others. Like it's great for very fast cars approaching the uphill and making a U turn into the chicane. Late apex, much slower, pointed in that direction anyway. For all the rest of us who go straight at the top of the hill it is very bad. I'm not saying that Jason would not have hit the guardrail, but it is the angle of attach that comes into question. Last year it would have been an earlier impact but much more of a glancing blow. Most likely a roughed up door, fender and qtr. and a bent wheel or two but he would have continued. But with the new set up it was an almost head on hit. The car is sliding in that direction and the unprotected rail is perpendicular to the track. Move the rail back, delete the corner station and put a worker on the other side with a control panel that operates a set lights to warn drivers. It can be that simple!

BTW Dave I am a driver, 15+ years, but do not need to be to see the stupidity of the situation.

[16v]

the uphill now seems to mimic the downhill runoff area where the barrier comes back out almost to track side

[gran racing]

and put a worker on the other side with a control panel that operates a set lights to warn drivers. It can be that simple![/b]

Right. It's that simple. ??? Do I feel safe racing at LRP? If you ask my wife - would you feel safe with me driving to Boston during the week or racing at LRP, racing at LRP would be the safer option.

Interesting how CPTV is airing the LRP video as I speak.

[eprodrx7]

Actually Dave I was watching the LRP thing also! I'm in it to. About ten minutes in you see a group of prod cars go by, I'm driving the RX7.

Anyway I really do think it could be that easy. If the French can get the Airbus 300 to fly I think we can get a set of lights to work probably faster then using a flag. We use them at Pocono, WGI and Summit. What is the great hurdle?

In reference to the fatal accident last year, I'm not sure what it has to do with this discussion. Yes it happened on the uphill but from reports that I heard the poor guy in the Radical just didn't see the flags. Workers at the bottom and the top of the hill had them flying high. What ever the reason, driving over his head, red mist, irresponsibility, lack of vision, or poor judgment, track design or worker communication would not have changed a thing.

BTW in Jason's accident he to came to rest in the middle of the track also. He had been running second at the time and thankfully the entire field -1 was able to avoid him.

[gran racing]

O.k. John, you're right. (No, I'm not being sarcastic.) My mind primarily jumped to what it would take pollitically within the town to get this accomplished and not what it would take to physically make the change. The financial end of things also came to mind.

[Greg Amy]

I'd suggest a lot of you guys just sit back until you see it for yourself. I have.

The first time I saw it was at a PDA event in March; while I was riding around in the right seat of a slower car admiring the changes to the track, I was surprised - and skeered - when I saw it for the first time. That wall is pretty much perpendicular to the direction of travel at that point. I remembered saying to myself, "if someone goes off there, that's gonna leave a mark." When I just watched the video from the guy's MX-5 (and I was there at the event to see the end result in the pit lane) it simply supported my initial impressions.

To a "T", anyone I've talked to that has seen it thinks the same thing: that's a very dangerous guardrail.

Now, it's certainly in a location that is a very unlikely place to go off; most folks will end up straight off from missing their braking point, and others tend to go off more downstream from spinning at the crest. In fact, when I looked at it later in the PDA day I thought that "yeah, it's a bad wall, but it's not really in a likely impact location."

Surprise! The first major race weekend there and guess what happens...?

I drove LRP for the first time at speed yesterday during the test day. I simply blocked that wall out (mentally and visually), 'cause you're just going too fast there to really notice it. However, just as you saw from within Siani's car, just 'cause you don't see it don't mean it ain't there... - GA

[LD71]

I've done a lot of laps at Lime Rock already this year with the new uphill, and some instructing too. I've looked at that corner from many angles, and talked to some Grand Cup guys about it Memorial Day.

The changes are an improvement at the downhill, but the increase in runoff at the bottom creates the illusion that it funnels even more at the top than before; it's not any narrower at the top, it's just wider at the bottom. There is some room there before teh guardrail and worker's station, but not much.

If you go off drivers left at the updill and several other places at LRP, The tendency is to want to turn hard right to get back on the track---I saw this with a Masearti Gran Sport driver in March at the uphill (big $ at teh body shop), a Grand Cup car at yestedy's test day, and you can see it in the video. the consequesnces are similar, you have to be lucky not to hit anything, usually it's a hard hit.

The driver in the video has experience, but I don't think he's been at LRP much if at all (I could be wrong, no mater how much experience you have, mistakes happen---I've made too many myself). If he hadn't tried to horse it back on when he did, he could have rode it out---wouldn't have been pretty on tape, but the car still would be.

Yesterday Ben Phillips (sp?) had a suspensiion failure in his SPU car at the bottom of the hill and told me he hit straight in at over 100 mph. He's ok, but lots of damage. Would have been much worse last year.

I think the changes are an improvement. The funneling illusion is something to watch out for. As is the driver school lesson not to try to horse the car back on if you go off.

Larry DuLude
LD71

[benspeed]

I was amazed when I watched that video - nearly the exact same place my car hit. When I was driving home and replaying the crash in my mind I kept asking myself if the barrier had changed up at the top. The barrier had nothing to do with my cars suspension failure, but if the barrier had been about 4-5 feet away from the track my catastrophic wreck would have been a big spinout.

Car is just incredibly torn up - neck, back, shoulders not doing so great either. Glad I was wearing a HANS and that I had pulled the belts extra tight. I cannot imagine what this might have been like at the downhill.

After 6 months of hard work and some big $$...... what a huge disappointment. I am waiting to call the shop who did the work - I need to take a paxil before I call.

Car is very fast (or was).

[lateapex911]

Ben, sorry to hear about that! Man..that car hasn't been an easy road, has it?? Come back to IT!

Larry, if I hear you right, you're cool with the change. I'm cool with the change at the bottom, but very Un cool with the change at the top. Richard Petty used to run high around lots of tracks...said he liked it because he had less room before he hit the wall, and the angle was a lot better up there...scratches to the door, not flattened front ends.

I am sure they had their reasons for moving the lower section back, but leaving the upper section as is, and transitioning with the rail that is at such a bad angle. But now, even at this early season juncture, we're getting real data that suggests whatever those reasons we're, they couldn't have been good enough.

Please move the flag station back in line with the rest of the guardrail, Lime Rock!

[LD71]

Jake,
I will take anothe look this weekend, perhaps I am wrong about it only being an illusion of funneling.

I looked at the video again, sure would like to be able to slo-mo that. The "out of bounds" on drivers left dips, and I wonder if this did not add to Jason's problems---you can see him go opposite lock during the video. I'm sure the drop-off is there to discourage using the off-course section as part of the track---as I've seen some cars do anyway.

I believe the flag station would be tough to move, as others have said, but maybe that's the ultimate solution.

Larry DuLude
LD71

[Doc Bro]

I wonder why LRP doesn't move the flag station back toward West Bend and raise it. Similar to the tree house at NHIS. The line of sight would be the same, it would give additional guard rail options and the flaggers would be safer. Is it because of that Nissan? GTP? flip when it got air at the hill? Or is it because the flaggers need quick access to the track? Or is it because I'm a genius and the only one to think of that?!!??


R