CRX - is it still competitive?

[Xian]

Scott and Christian,

When did the weight addition go into effect and how much weight did you have to add?
[/b]

Weight went into effect at the beginning of this season. There was a total of around 100#'s of weight that got added back into the car (ballast, spare tire, oil cooler, bigger rear bar, heavier exhaust, etc) and neither Scott nor myself are small guys... we both weigh around 210#'s.

There is definitely weight that could be taken out of the car if it was still at the old weight. As it sits, the car is as light as it can get and still be legal. When it was rolled across the scales at CMP 2 weeks ago it came in at 2252 with me in the car and the tank at the point of fuel starve. I suspect that the front hubs/axles/brakes have reached their breaking point based on the loads that uber-sticky tires and higher weight are imparting.

[Catch22]

the weight changed at the beginning of the year Chad, if you havent added it your car is either mighty heavy, hasn't been through impound yet, or snuck across the scales underweight.
If you were actually underweight at VIR, that might help explain why you had the *ONLY* CRX there that didn't have some sort of hub/bearing issue.
But I'm sure thats just more coincidence.

We had to add about 100lbs to Christian's car. We put the donut spare in the back and a bunch of lead plates in the passenger footwell (as far back as currently legally accepted). We also start each race with a full tank of gas.
We've pressed the envelope getting it as light as possible. At CMP Christian rolled across the scales after the race at 2252. Yeah... Thats as dialed in as it gets weight-wise.
Both Christian and I weigh over 200lbs and the chassis is an '89 with alot of custom cage in it.
The 88s are a little lighter and will likely need a little more weight.

[Zahniser1970]

I know that our car was somewhere over 2200 last year and we had nothing else to get rid of. I weigh 213 right now and weighed 231 laste year and bill, my teammate, is well over 250. We have not ran since VIR so I am curious as to how our car will do at Rd Atl next month.

[Catch22]

Simultaneous posts are cool.

[Xian]

Simultaneous posts are cool.

[/b]

At least we've got our story straight :P

[Catch22]

I know that our car was somewhere over 2200 last year and we had nothing else to get rid of. I weigh 213 right now and weighed 231 laste year and bill, my teammate, is well over 250. We have not ran since VIR so I am curious as to how our car will do at Rd Atl next month.
[/b]

With a 230 to 250lb driver I can see a CRX weighing close to 2200 with no ballast and a full tank of gas.
Christian's came in at about 2150 last year with him in it (210lbs) and no ballast. Smaller drivers have traditionally been running 25 to 50lbs of lead at the old weight.

My guess is that you guys were under 2200lbs at VIR but you probably got away with it because you wrote the old number on your tech form and the guy at the scales didn't notice.
Even with Bill's 250lbs in the car, I'm positive you guys were at least 50lbs light with no ballast and after an enduro stint at VIR (likely down near 1/2 tank of gas).

Pure speculation on my part, but it all adds up and makes sense.

We'll be double checking your scale numbers at Road Atlanta Chad.

[Zahniser1970]

I cannot wait to let you guys whip up on us

[Xian]

Being that it'll be my first time at RA, I'm not sure that I'll be "whipping up" on anyone but I'll sure try!

[Andy Bettencourt]

But... I could be totally wrong.
Somebody could show up at the ARRC this year and whip everyone in a CRX.
Someone *could* do that... But my bet is that (depending on everyone with top non-CRX cars showing up) there won't be a CRX in the top 3, maybe even the top 5 this year.[/b]

And I bet you are right - about the CRX's potential to win the ARRC. And if that holds true, the only people to balme are the CRX drivers who bailed on the car because of a PERCEPTION that the car was dead. It most certainly isn't.

Thats my point Andy.
How do you KNOW its "working" in other classes?
We just started this whole thing this year. We don't "know" that the system is working in other classes. Not yet.[/b]

We don't KNOW anything. The data this year is sure leading us to belive that ITA is healhier than ever. More cars, more diversity and more drivers who think their car has a shot. THAT is the definition of success IMHO. As I have said before, the cream will always rise to the top - and it will - but right now, on paper and on the entry lists, the system is working.

Andy, you and I both agree that FWD cars just can't seem to cut it at current specs in ITS, so further "compensation" is being considered.

Well, maybe it will bear out that the same applies to ITA, just to a lesser degree. Say (and I'm just whipping numbers out of my arse) something like ITS FWD cars get a 100lb break and ITA FWD cars get a 50lb break.
I honestly think its too early to make that call, but its something that needs to be considered and planned for.[/b]

What would you say if I told you that the 50lbs is already in effect for 'other' classes'? The fact remains that the CRX can cut laps as fast as it ever could - as per your experience. Just because it is a little tougher on parts does not mean the system is broken. It just means it may not be a great choice over long races.



AB

[Catch22]

What would you say if I told you that the 50lbs is already in effect for 'other' classes'?
AB
[/b]

I'd say then *maybe* it needs to be 100 in ITA.
Note that I said "maybe" because I don't know for sure yet, and neither do you.
Or *maybe* just a few cars will struggle with the weight and others won't, so some cars might need a little help.

Sure, ITA is very healthy right now. Better than it has been in years.
But that doesn't mean its "right."
Maybe (note the "maybe" again) it could be more healthy???

Honestly answer this...
What if:
The CRX weight didn't change from 05.
The Integra weight didn't change from 05.
The 1.6 Miata weight didn't change from 05.
AND...
The Neon came to ITA from ITS
The Civic EX came to ITA from ITS
The Sentra and NX came to ITA from ITS
The later Integra came to ITA from ITS
The 1.8 Miata came to ITA from ITS
The 12A RX7 lost a bunch of weight

Would the CRX and Integra STILL be considered "overdogs" even at their old weight?
Would the class be just as healthy as it is now?
My answers are no and yes.
What are yours?

I hear what you are saying Andy, and I believe in "The Process."
But maybe the process can be even better? Lets not assume it can't be better without trying and lets not shoot ourselves in the foot by letting some chassis fade from contention because we're too stubborn to take 75lbs out of them.
Think 75lbs isn't a big deal? I disagree, and looking at Rewards weight systems in varous pro racing series (including SCCA's own) 75lbs IS considered to be substantial.

Here's what I've seen since last year at this time...
Integra... Fast, harder on parts in 06 but still finishing races.
1.8 Miata... Very fast
1.6 Miata... Added weight had little effect
NX... Very fast
Civic EX... Very fast
12a RX7... Much faster, winning ITA races with the right driver
CRX... Struggling with reliability and DNFs in 06. Still fast, but can't sustain it. Quickly becoming the option at the bottom of this list of cars.

That last one is a red flag to me. And if one is concerned with the health of ITA attention should be paid to that. My observation and experience tells me that a 2150 (or 2175 or 2200)lb CRX is no more of a threat to a 1.8 Miata, Integra, or NX than a 2250lb CRX. Its just that the lighter CRX has a better chance of still chasing those cars at the end instead of being 3-4 seconds off the pace or parked with a busted hub.

Again, and I can't stress this enough, I don't own a CRX.
If I built an ITA car today it wouldn't be a CRX, not even at 2140lbs instead of 2250.
My concern is strictly that, a concern.

[ltblouis]

Hello guys, I have been reading the post and I usually don't like to comment but I will point few things from my experience, you guys read or interpret them anyway you like:
* When I ran my CRX back 5 to 7 years ago I used to always qualify and finish in the top 5 in the group at least and no one complained about me beating ITS cars.
* I never broke an axle, never lost a hub never or never DNF for any of these reasons.
* the CRX in ITA was given a wait penalty 8 years ago by SCCA , so this is the second weight adjustement.
* my car was always 40 to 50 lbs over the weight limit back in the old days
* my old car that I have bought again now has better weight distribution now with 2250, I would take any day more weight with better weight dist.
* a well build and rep. crx can still kick ass in good hands.
*not anyone can drive a crx fast!!!!! the car has to be very scarry to go fast and if you set it up neutral you will always be slow.
* I know only few drivers that can drive a fast crx and give them a good prep crx they will still beat anyone, some of these drivers that I remember are: Endicott, Moser, Muresan, Fowler, Botha, Puckett and few more sorry I don't know some all the new guys.
* if you are a good driver stick to Miata it is easier to drive, if you are a great driver build a crx.
* yes crx are cheap these days but for one reason, people that sold tem lately needed the money and where not running these cars to show how good they are. The car is still worth at least 10 to 12 k
* SCCA loves Mazda, don't waste time on asking them 50lbs for the crx they will never do it soon they will have a Miata in every class in SCCA

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'd say then *maybe* it needs to be 100 in ITA.
Note that I said "maybe" because I don't know for sure yet, and neither do you.
Or *maybe* just a few cars will struggle with the weight and others won't, so some cars might need a little help.[/b]

Then we will agree to disagree - for now. Your 'estimation' on weight is totally subjectve and based 100% on the longevity of parts - not sprint performance.

Sure, ITA is very healthy right now. Better than it has been in years.
But that doesn't mean its "right."
Maybe (note the "maybe" again) it could be more healthy???[/b]

We have made a one-time 'correction' to get everyone on the same page. Nit-picky fiddling is not in the future. IT has undergone some MAJOR changes over the past 18 months and the goal is stability - but we had to get to a consistant and repeatable spot first.

Honestly answer this...
What if:
The CRX weight didn't change from 05.
The Integra weight didn't change from 05.
The 1.6 Miata weight didn't change from 05.
AND...
The Neon came to ITA from ITS
The Civic EX came to ITA from ITS
The Sentra and NX came to ITA from ITS
The later Integra came to ITA from ITS
The 1.8 Miata came to ITA from ITS
The 12A RX7 lost a bunch of weight

Would the CRX and Integra STILL be considered "overdogs" even at their old weight?
Would the class be just as healthy as it is now?
My answers are no and yes.
What are yours?[/b]

My answer is that the 3 cars you mention would be the only 3 cars that hadn't been through the process in ITA - and that is a bad thing. Facilitating that thought is that they would be out winning races without ANY justification to their minimum weights. If you were driving a car that was 'overweight', would you be making the same argument?

Here's what I've seen since last year at this time...
Integra... Fast, harder on parts in 06 but still finishing races.
1.8 Miata... Very fast
1.6 Miata... Added weight had little effect
NX... Very fast
Civic EX... Very fast
12a RX7... Much faster, winning ITA races with the right driver
CRX... Struggling with reliability and DNFs in 06. Still fast, but can't sustain it. Quickly becoming the option at the bottom of this list of cars.[/b]

I am going to call a 1/2 BS on this one. We are talking sprints here. Typical club racing. You are basing your statement on enduros. If you told me that the CRX couldn't stay together for a 30 minute sprint, then I think we would need to look at it. (and when I say that, I don't know what I would recommend as I wouldn't have a car at an artifically low weight just to make it relaible but also unfairly quick...).

Bottom line is that the car is just as fast as it used to be. Now it just fits the process.

That last one is a red flag to me. And if one is concerned with the health of ITA attention should be paid to that. My observation and experience tells me that a 2150 (or 2175 or 2200)lb CRX is no more of a threat to a 1.8 Miata, Integra, or NX than a 2250lb CRX. Its just that the lighter CRX has a better chance of still chasing those cars at the end instead of being 3-4 seconds off the pace or parked with a busted hub.[/b]

And I hear you but your opinion is 100% subjective. The system has to work for everyone, not just one car.

Again, and I can't stress this enough, I don't own a CRX.
If I built an ITA car today it wouldn't be a CRX, not even at 2140lbs instead of 2250.
My concern is strictly that, a concern.
[/b]

But you are racing one. The goal is to have lots of options - and we have that in ITA now - and the CRX is most certainly one of them.

[Catch22]

Bottom line is that the car is just as fast as it used to be. [/b]

We'll see come November.
I think the car is as fast as ever for a few laps, thats all. And a few laps can't win races.

The question is... If the CRX gets completely shut out at the ARRC, and a couple of them DNF for failures, will you guys re-visit the weight?
I know the process is not supposed to be based on results, but results can surely indicate a flaw in the process... Agreed?

We're ditching enduros for the remainder of the year Andy. I'll keep you informed on how well the sprint racing goes.

[Andy Bettencourt]

We'll see come November.
I think the car is as fast as ever for a few laps, thats all. And a few laps can't win races.[/b]

Are you saying the car is dead in a 20 lap sprint?

The question is... If the CRX gets completely shut out at the ARRC, and a couple of them DNF for failures, will you guys re-visit the weight?
I know the process is not supposed to be based on results, but results can surely indicate a flaw in the process... Agreed?
[/b]

I can't speak for the CRB but I would say no. If SE-R's (or insert your favorite ITA car here) get shut out and a couple DNF, you want their weight reduced or revisited to improve their potential ARRC performance for 2007??? Results can be used - only as a trend. And not if the prophecy will self-fulfill by no-shows, etc. (Meaning the top 3 CRX drivers from last year need to be there...same with ITS - if Chet doesn't show with his E36 and an RX-7 wins, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy for BMW guys)

Again, I hear you...but................

[Catch22]

Are you saying the car is dead in a 20 lap sprint?


[/b]

I'm not saying that *yet*.
But if you put a gun to my head and made me give you an answer today I'd say "Yes, if its pushed hard it will fall off significantly over 20 laps."
I'm basing this off of enduro performance and how it has fallen off there, even at a slower enduro pace. But I realize this is not exact. Its going to actually require an ARRCish race with a ballz out push for 20 laps to make the "no doubt about it" call, and I haven't done that yet.

But I'll say this, I have sort of a rep for being a guy that can keep a car under him for an entire race and be there at the end instead of burning the car down early, and my results have shown this.
So if I have an issue, I'll go out on a limb and say its *probably* not me.

Add this to the premature brake, shaft, and bearing failures we've had, and well... You know... Things don't look so good.

Again, I hear you...but................[/b]

I know you do.
I'm just providing information. It may prove to be useless, it may not.
I'm just suggesting you guys keep the performance of this car on your radar.

[gran racing]

1. A CRX has won the ARRC only what? Once? in the past 5 years. That doesn't sound very overdoggy to me. [/b]

As much fun as RA and the ARRC is, that is not [i]the[i/] only track out there. I know I (and other "yankees" who would do even better at LRP) would enjoy a champioship event at our home track. Hey, you coming for the race in two weeks?

[R2 Racing]

"ITA in 2006 - what a long, strange trip it will be!"

After reading this thread, it just makes me think that I need to send Joe Moser an email again. If he decides to run the ARRC again this year, that will be your final decision maker on what the "new" CRX can do, period. The last I talked to him, he was moving back to the CenDiv this summer so I imagine I might get to see it first hand before too long.

Also, in response to the comment about the lack of wins for the CRX at the ARRC over the last couple of years, lets remember that Joe was winning last year before his rear subframe started ripping itself from the chassis. He also put dow the fastest race lap with half a second on Alex's Integra and a full second on mine. Also remember that James Evans was DQ'd from a win for no passenger door window glass in 2002 (I think 2002). Might not mean anything, but just remember.

[Andy Bettencourt]

"ITA in 2006 - what a long, strange trip it will be!"

After reading this thread, it just makes me think that I need to send Joe Moser an email again. If he decides to run the ARRC again this year, that will be your final decision maker on what the "new" CRX can do, period. The last I talked to him, he was moving back to the CenDiv this summer so I imagine I might get to see it first hand before too long. [/b]

Would be great to have the track record holder there, no?

[R2 Racing]

Would be great to have the track record holder there, no?
[/b]

As a spectator and/or a person with great interest in ITA? Absolutely!

As a competitor who would dearly love to win the damn thing? HELL NO!

:P

[lateapex911]

I don't think the sky has fallen quite yet................

And to even talk about the ARRC results...in terms of a win percentage, is pretty silly, for lots of reasons....

Don't certain VWs have similar issues? What happened with them..did they get some form of compensation?