CRX - is it still competitive?

[lateapex911]

Agreed, but not in everyone's dictionary. In a perfect world, we desire to compete on an even field with everyone having a chance to win. In reality, we want to kick everybody's butt! That's when most feel they are competitive. Not necessarily correct, but still human nature. Most don't build a particular car to be simply competitive, but to dominate, if possible. We all won't to win as often as we can. Even that Schumaker guy has to have a helluva car to win. The best of drivers can't do it with a simply competitive car all the time.
[/b]

Well, good! That means the best drivers are winning.........

last I checked, that was the goal.

Jake,

.... I can't believe that you turned your back on your own car. I am running ITA this year just to prove to you ( and everyone else ) that a 1st gen RX7 can be competitive (as you said"on certain tracks not every track"). I guess I need to wait until they put my 97 Miata in ITA then maybe I will have a chance. But until then I'll do my best with what I've got.....LOL

... FYI ... My First three wins were against the ITA Champion ,Stan Hinds, Driving an RX3

... And don't be surprised when the 1.8 Miata takes over ITA. The writing is on the wall............. I'm ready.

... Just standing up for my car and myself ...

... Rick Thompson
[/b]

Rick! Hows the rebuild coming!? The pictures looked pretty invasive! If anyone can do that, it's you.

Yup.I left the RX-7 out of it. I figured I'd just pass on it as i own one. My post was more of a 10,000 foot view.

I have no doubts you'll win a few more.

Your wins against Stan...how'd you do it? In the braking?

Seriously - A is where it's at.

If the 2.0 16v GTI weren't as rare as hen's teeth, I'd have built one the instant they got moved to ITA. Since I got de-NERDified, I've harbored thoughts of just building a Frankenstein damn-the-VIN version out of the older, straight, rust-free $300 no-sunroof shell I see sitting whenever I go to my favorite Asian lunch joint, and the drivetrain from a crapped out, freebie '91 Passat. The "big" bumpers are the hardest part of the recipe.

Just let some NERD protest me. I know Greg won't but...

K
[/b]

Pssssssssssst.

plasma cutter.......
Tig welder
grinder...

Didn't hear it from me.

[charrbq]

Well, good! That means the best drivers are winning.........

last I checked, that was the goal.
I thought the original question concerned whether or not the car was competitive, not the driver.
Pssssssssssst.

plasma cutter.......
Tig welder
grinder...

Didn't hear it from me.

[/b]

Psssst! Impound! Protest commitee?

[lateapex911]

Psst...Knestis...looks like the secrets out...better not do that, LOL....

[Z3_GoCar]

Here's my definition of competitive based upon my experience driving a spec muffler class Yahama Kart:

Competitive is when you're not spit out the back when the green flag drops, and you're not lap traffic for your class after five laps. Given this definition there are lots of Spec Miata that aren't competitive in their own class. I found I needed a new Kart chassis and to blueprint my motor to not get left behind, my best finish was a 2nd place because I drove a smart race and didn't get collected.

James

[Catch22]

What every other car 'got' has nothing to do with it. The fact it got the 'most' percentage-wise, just means it was the furthest 'off' pre-correction.

People are selling them because they aren't overdogs anymore. Now you have to actually race - oh no!

110lbs turns the car from perfect to a parts eating monster? Hmmmm...

Remember, these were not comp adjustments. They were just run through the process like everything else. The CRX SHOULD be a car that is track dependent - it's small and nimble. Others will have strengths elsewhere.

You boys better keep developing - Greg Amy is coming to Atlanta with a real sharp knife.

AB
[/b]

I don't care about "dominating" anything.
What I do care about is a car that keeps tearing up brand new parts.

Yes Andy, 110lbs does qualify as a shit ton of weight on a 2140lb FWD "grocery getter." It has significantly handicapped the car, not in speed, but in reliability.
I don't really think that was the goal of the addition. I hope I'm correct about that.

And I'm very familiar with Mr. Amy and his sharp knife. He is my pick to win the ARRC this year as the VanSteenburg Miatae are rarely spotted at Road Atlanta.
That said, Thats not even what I'm talking about here.

Please understand that I'm not talking about speed or competitiveness or winning the ARRC. What I'm talking about is a formerly spot-on reliable car that is now systematically killing components that it has not historically killed nearly as quickly.
Out of 4 races, we've had ONE race that we finished without a complete failure or a major repair. Yes, these are 1.5 hour races, but CRXs have been doing these races for years in the SE without these issues.
Now (maybe coincidentally???), hubs, bearings, CV Joints, and brake components are being terminated with extreme predjudice and not on just one car. Earlier this year at VIR if you had a supply of CRX hubs and bearings you could name your price. I'm not kidding.

I know its easy to poo poo this and say "Oh, 110lbs isn't wreaking THAT much havoc." And honestly, if I wasn't in the middle of the havoc I might say the same thing.
But we keep breaking parts, NEW parts, and we keep looking around and seeing other guys breaking parts. I just can't bring myself to buy that its all a coincidence.

Again... The car isn't any slower. I can turn just as fast a lap at 2250 that I could at 2140.
I just can't manage to finish the race at 2250.
Meanwhile, Bowies Miata with something like 30 races on the motor just keeps on going like the energizer bunny. He readily admits that his "beat a CRX" strategy is now to just pressure it a bit and wait for the front end to burn to the ground. So far its worked for him flawlessly.

Again, and I can't stress this enough... This isn't about speed.
If Christian decides to bail out and sell his CRX it won't be about competitiveness or because he got spanked by Greg Amy, it'll be because he's tired of replacing front end components after EVERY weekend.
Thats how my Integra GSR used to be, and its why I sold the damned thing.

I'm just trying to provide information for you guys. I don't own an ITA CRX and don't plan to buy one. I likely won't be driving the one I'm currently driving after this year.
In short, I have no dog in this hunt.
I just truly believe that the CRX adjustment needs to be revisited because its not accomplishing what you guys in the ITAC intended for it to accomplish, and in the long term that is going to hurt ITA, not help it.

We've scratched the ECR series and the ARRC enduro off our schedule. At this point, based on what we've seen so far, we don't see the point in even trying to do those races.

[R2 Racing]

Scott, I'd have to ask what kind of suspension components you guys are running. I only ask because in my first year with my Integra, I was going through axles like water. At the time my car was around 2570lbs and had a relatively "soft" suspension on it. It just came down to the fact that the front end was too soft to handle the weight and cornering loads, was rolling over a ton, and was pushing the axles beyond their design capabilities. I ended up having to throw springs and bars at it in effort to just make it finish races. Once that happened, I had to make it actually handle. Kind of ass backwards, I know, but it happened. Now its about 2605lbs after races, handles freaking great, and runs like a top!

I don't know if comparing an Integra to a CRX is right in this instance, but I know that the suspension designs are almost identical. I do not know if the Integra's hubs are beefier though, maybe explaining why I never had a problem there.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Don't know what to tell you. What do you think the CRB was trying to 'accomplish' with the correction? NOTHING to do with performance or longevity that is for sure. Just getting everyones weights in line with the classification/reclassification process. Simple.

As far as your issue? Some cars make great enduro cars, some make great sprint cars. Bowie's Miata and the CRX may be opposites. One makes a great Sprint car in ITA (CRX) and one makes a great enduro car in ITA (Miata).

Choose your weapon. Bowie did knowing that he didn't have an ARRC winning platform - but for long races, he could be the man.

AB

[Tom Blaney]

Catch:

I am not sure what life expectency you demand out of your parts (assuming your using OEM or second line), but the 100+ lbs of weight are not going to start breaking hubs etc. Since except for the 88 CRX Si body most of the cars weren't at minimum weight anyway. And the boxier and heavier Civic uses the same components.

I have run multiple enduros and sprints in a variety of CRX's and we do not have that kind of component failure with my heat treated hubs and rotors.

Perhaps if you keep track of the parts use hours you might have less failures.

Tom

[charrbq]

Let&#39;s see...if it weighs so much that the darned thing snaps in to several pieces, then I guess the only other way slow it down is an SIR! <_<

[Catch22]

Uncle.

Thats all I can say at this point.
Its an OPM set up car, with the same components and suspension setup they&#39;ve used for years with no issues. Now we&#39;re having issues. Apparently thats now acceptable.

As far as tracking usage hours... We aren&#39;t getting enough to worry about it.
Lets see...
Front bearing (OE Honda) hours... About 3.
Raxles half shaft (very good reputation)... 1.5 weekends
OE Honda lower ball joints... 2 weekends
Cobalt brake pads and Brembo Rotors... Forget about tracking hours, we&#39;re going through those so fast we just need to plan on starting every weekend on new ones (CRXs didn&#39;t used to be that way).

As far as weights Tom, the Civic used to weigh 35lbs more, no big deal in the greater scheme. And I know several drivers in 89-91 CRXs that were already running a little ballast at the old weight. So yeah... Adding 110lbs has actually added 110lbs in most cases. It did in our car (an &#39;89 BTW).

But whatever. Forget I ever said anything and we&#39;ll see how this sorts out in the long run.

[dickita15]

Scott,
You certainly are getting beat up here, and I know that you are just saying what is happening to you in the real world. It’s just to those of us on the sidelines it does not seem to make sense that that amount of weight would make that big a difference.

I guess if I was in you shoes I would be looking for legal way to move weight toward the rear.

[Catch22]

Well Dick, the point I&#39;m trying to make is that I see an issue on the horizon. As I mentioned, I don&#39;t even own a CRX, so my input here is not self serving. I don&#39;t expect any potential change would occur before the end of this year, and its unlikely I&#39;ll be driving this car after &#39;06, so there&#39;s not really anything for me to personally gain unless a free ITA CRX ride unexpectedly falls in my lap at some future time (and we all know how often THAT happens).

And as I also stated before, I&#39;m not sure I would buy it either if I was on the outside looking in. But its not just our car, other CRXs are seeming to have issues they didn&#39;t really used to have.

Just coincidence?
Maybe, but at this point I&#39;m willing to stick my neck out and say I don&#39;t think so. I could look stoopid later, but it wouldn&#39;t be the first time.

The mechanism is there to review changes that are made. I&#39;m simply suggesting that this is one that needs to be looked at.

[dickita15]

So lets talk in the hypothetical. If an addition of enough weight to “level the field” makes racing a car difficult, impossible, unsafe ECT. What should be done? Now as you said, we have not reached that end with the CRX conclusively. But what happens when we get to that point. Do we take the weight off and let a car be an overdog? Do we move them up a class? Do we add a restrictor? Do we just say sorry you picked the wrong car?

[charrbq]

Seems to me like the response is usually the last one...even when unspoken.

[Catch22]

Well, I honestly don&#39;t think we&#39;re anywhere near that point... Yet.

Remember that this whole thing is still very new, so I&#39;d honestly be quite surprised if the next few years don&#39;t see a bunch of changes. And I&#39;m OK with that.
I think the guys on the ITAC are doing a fantastic job, but to think that they&#39;d go from zero methodology of classing cars to getting it perfectly correct the first time would be kind of a stretch.

As many folks know, I&#39;m one of a group of folks that isn&#39;t totally happy with the current speccing method because it doesn&#39;t take FWD into account. And very few people will argue the view that weight hurts FWD cars more than RWD cars, and that penalty gets worse as the cars get faster in ITS and ITA (and ITR?).

We&#39;ve already discussed the idea of a break for FWD ITS cars in other threads around here, and last I heard that discussion is on the ITAC agenda. Maybe that same discussion needs to take place with ITA in mind, just a little less of a break?

As far as the CRX being an "overdog," I have some thoughts about that...
1. A CRX has won the ARRC only what? Once? in the past 5 years. That doesn&#39;t sound very overdoggy to me.
2. Remember that not only did the CRX get 110lbs, but some other cars like the RX7 lost weight. So even if you feel the CRX was an overdog before, taking weight back off of it now doesn&#39;t take things back to pre-05 status due to other changes.
3. Was the CRX really an overdog or was it a case of everyone building them because a few guys did really well with them early? Sort of like what has been happening with the Integra lately. I seem to remember that a guy that thought outside the ITA box and put a full effort into a 240sx did pretty well, but I never really heard it called an "overdog."

You cant legitimately put the "E36 Label" on the CRX because it never produced dyno numbers well and truly above the rest of the class. The CRX can&#39;t put any more to the wheels (legally) than a good 1.6 miata and it does less than a 12a RX7. The BMW simply laid waste to every other car in the class on the dyno.
So that "overdog" label is apples to oranges.

Honestly, if nothing ever changes and the venerable CRX falls by the ITA wayside its no skin off my ass. But I really don&#39;t think thats good for the class in the long run, and thats why I&#39;m bringing this up now.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Well, let&#39;s blow up some misconceptions. Drivetrain layout IS taken into account in every class in terms of weight. What is being looked at in ITS is ADDITIONAL &#39;compensation&#39; for FWD. It seems as if when you get to higher weight and higher HP levels, what is working in the other classes is marginalized in ITS.

So the net/net is that the car is just as fast as it ever was but it just goes through parts faster?

The &#39;overdog&#39; comments you here are (respectfully) from guys whose cars where crushed by the inclusion of the CRX way-back-when. No issues, just a stinger.

What are you saying when you say "Just coincidence? Maybe, but at this point I&#39;m willing to stick my neck out and say I don&#39;t think so. I could look stoopid later, but it wouldn&#39;t be the first time."

And to even state that the CRX could &#39;fall by the wayside&#39; is bogus. If it can still run at the front of ITA but just may not be the best enduro car sure doesn&#39;t spell it&#39;s death.

[zracre]

It looks like the only restrictor has been put on us Hondacura drivers wallets. We can still go almost as fast as before, we just need to spend more money to do it...new tires every race, new axles more often and obviously more brakes more often. The Honda product is the most popular ITA ride for a reason...good aftermarket and development. It took years to get these cars right just so they can be slowed. Why hasn&#39;t the RX7 been reeled in some? Other than the aforementioned Beemer, I dont know of any other regular at the front (the occasional one off Merc does but how many of them are there?)...leaving no room for other cars to compete.

[Catch22]

What are you saying when you say "Just coincidence? Maybe, but at this point I&#39;m willing to stick my neck out and say I don&#39;t think so. I could look stoopid later, but it wouldn&#39;t be the first time."

[/b]

I&#39;m saying exactly what I&#39;m saying (which is pretty much the status quo with me). What I&#39;m seeing is CRXs having reliability issues and not doing all that well out on track. I&#39;m also seeing numbers down. I&#39;m also seeing people trying to sell former championship cars and nobody wanting them. I&#39;m also seeing RX7s pass me on straights (and I&#39;m in a car with a brand new ballz-out OPM motor). In short, I&#39;m seeing a bunch of negatives and not really any positives in terms of where the CRX stands in ITA today.
When I add all these things up, it doesn&#39;t look good for the CRX to me.

But... I could be totally wrong.
Somebody could show up at the ARRC this year and whip everyone in a CRX.
Someone *could* do that... But my bet is that (depending on everyone with top non-CRX cars showing up) there won&#39;t be a CRX in the top 3, maybe even the top 5 this year.

Maybe I should start "Spec CRX?"
What the hell... It worked for the "uncompetitive in ITA" Miata. Right?

Well, let&#39;s blow up some misconceptions. Drivetrain layout IS taken into account in every class in terms of weight. What is being looked at in ITS is ADDITIONAL &#39;compensation&#39; for FWD. It seems as if when you get to higher weight and higher HP levels, what is working in the other classes is marginalized in ITS.

[/b]

Thats my point Andy.
How do you KNOW its "working" in other classes?
We just started this whole thing this year. We don&#39;t "know" that the system is working in other classes. Not yet.

Andy, you and I both agree that FWD cars just can&#39;t seem to cut it at current specs in ITS, so further "compensation" is being considered.

Well, maybe it will bear out that the same applies to ITA, just to a lesser degree. Say (and I&#39;m just whipping numbers out of my arse) something like ITS FWD cars get a 100lb break and ITA FWD cars get a 50lb break.
I honestly think its too early to make that call, but its something that needs to be considered and planned for.

I think most of us will agree that if you take an ITA CRX and a ITA Miata and add 100lbs to both of them, you just penalized the CRX significantly more.

[Xian]

I think most of us will agree that if you take an ITA CRX and a ITA Miata and add 100lbs to both of them, you just penalized the CRX significantly more.
[/b]

Nope, you&#39;re completely wrong. Stop all this "the CRX is going thru parts talk"... how do you think I&#39;m gonna be able to sell the car next year if everyone finds out it like to eat parts for breakfast, lunch , and dinner?

Seriously though, the CRX is a great chassis with a really good engine and suspension but at the current weight it&#39;s all taking a toll on the front end. I know not every car is going to be good at everything adn I&#39;m ok with that but the weight adjustment means that I&#39;m not going to be running the car in Summer ECR&#39;s anymore b/c the front end just can&#39;t take the weight and abuse. Will I still race tha car? Of Course I will. Will I think about switching to something RWD down the road? Probably...

Christian

[Zahniser1970]

Scott and Christian,

When did the weight addition go into effect and how much weight did you have to add?