another IT7 tire question

[papabear]

I hate to ask again, but with the upcoming IT races I would like to know. Is there anywhere that I can read the IT7 tire rules? My understanding is that Toyo's must be ran in all Sarrc and ECR events. Can Hoosiers be ran in IT races? What decision was ever reached on rain tires? I remember the first race at RA it was stated that you could run any rain tire in SARRC, and some competitors had a letter staing that, I later heard that was not true. I would like to read the rules before traveling to RA or any further races.

1. must TOYOS be ran in all IT7 races? SARRC, ECR, CCPS and what about the ARRC
2. what rain tires if any are allowed? dirt stockers, hoosier rains or full tread toyos
3. does the CCPS follow the same rules as SARRC?
4. does a IT7 car have a chance in ITA?

Thanks for any help you can give me.

[murphyd]

Carolina Cup Pro Series follows the SEDiv IT7 rules requiring the spec tire!

[tom_sprecher]

Try this

SEDiv Rules

I think IT7 rules are on page 3.

To answer your question to the best of my knowledge goes like this.

1. SARRC, ECR, CCPS yes. ARRC no.
2. Toyo RA1, shaved or not, Hoosier Dirt Stocker. That's it!
3. As far as the tire goes, yes.
4. Not usually.

Hope this helps. Where you located?

[crushed]

The Atlanta Region PRO-it series allows Hoosiers for IT-7

[it7rx739]

The SARRC It-7 class is regulated with a spec toyo RA-1 . The ECR is spec tire as well. The Pro-It-7 is anthing goes. As far as rain tires are concerned, anything goes. Easy fix....go from the 7 class to ita!!!

[Toni]

Please read the request for input of opinion for IT7 and SM regional tires on the main page.

Replys may be submitted until July 6. After that I will send the tabulation to the committee (the Committee is the Chiefs of Tech for the regions listed in the rules for the Website) for opinion. The REs will approve or disapprove the proposal at the mid year meeting on July 29.

Please put a reply either in the text or the subject box. An empty email doesn't really say much.

Toni Creighton

[apexingsupra]

And remember it is the REs who vote on this so if it matters to you then contact your RE and tell them which way you want them to vote and why.

Barry Hair
Ala. Region RE.

[racerpepe]

in responce to Toni Creighton. i would support a FULL VOTE OF (ALL) IT-7 drivers on the spec tire rule .
This is the way it was passed originally by a 5 to 1 margin for a spec tire with i believe 79 of the roughly
108 ballots complete with self addresed stamped envelopes were returned again by a 5 to 1 margin.
Lee Graser can be contacted for specifics. any effort to circumvent another FULL VOTE would be demining to those it-7 drivers who filled out their ballots believing that their vote actually counted. to send the message that they and there vote do not count and only those that happen across this informal pole are the
drivers that get to make the rules that ALL drivers have to follow is a insult. i have said before and it bares
repeating that i will run 1 rotor with donut spares for tires if and only if that is what the majority of ALL IT-7 DRIVERS WANT. not the select few who win free tires or have tire deals or can afford to out spend there fellow drivers or happen to be privy to a web page.PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not treat myself and my fellow drivers with such disrespect as to say that we don't matter to you or to it-7. i have always raced it-7
and the best thing beside my fellow drivers has always been that every driver matters and that all of the drivers get to vote for or against an issue not just a select few. all of the drivers names and addresses are available to vote on this issue again at anytime. any other effort to circumvent or change the way this has already been done can only be construed as a personal insult to every it-7 driver wether they are for or against a spec tire. i can see no reason not to give (ALL DRIVERS) a vote. i look forward to recieving my ballot in the mail i will even use my own stamp on this one. thank you for listening to all drivers.

[jvarble]

look under general disscusions, toni creighton has broken down the process as to how the procedure's for rule changes to take place.
should any of you want to talk about the spec tire rule, or any other proposed changes to do with IT/7 you can contact:

chair for IT/7 advisory group: sam henderson [email protected]

stan hines [email protected]

alex jackson [email protected]

lee grasier [email protected]

joe varble [email protected]

[Toni]

racerpepe and others,

In 2005 the IT7 Advisory Board took an opinion poll by hard copy. They presented the opinions to the DA of Tech. Those opinions were presented to the Class Review Board (chiefs of tech in the racing regions) for opinion at some time during the year. It was discussed. I wasn’t a chief of tech or DA at the time but I was award of the discussion. The DA of tech then presented the proposal for an IT7 rules change to include a spec tire to the REs at their mid year meeting last July. The REs voted on the proposal and it was passed for the 2006 season.

It is the time to review the rules for the 2007 season. Rules are reviewed every year.

At the annual meeting in January 2007, if you would like to make a proposal for the 2008 season which begins in the fall of 2007, please attend the tech session (having presented your proposal for the agenda in December).

This is late notice to begin the review for 2007 but I acquired the DA position just a little over 2 weeks ago. I am working very hard to have a committee to review each of the class rules, including IT7. Some classes didn’t have an Advisory Board Committee last year. I am establishing those Advisory Boards.

I will take the recommendations from each Advisory Board to the Class Review Board and then to the REs. I am attempting to complete this quickly because of time restraints. The mid year meeting is July 29. And before there can be a proposal to the REs everything must go to the Class Review Board for their approval or disapproval. Time is very short. I am attempting to do this publically so that there is no question on the response or procedure.

If you would like for IT7 drivers to send their response by US Mail, please have them refer to the SEDivRacing.org website for my address. It is listed in several places. Replies must be received before July 6 – next Thursday.

I must have the final proposals from the Class Review Board no later than July 22 so they may be included in the material for the REs. Material will be distributed to the REs on July 26. Time is short.

BTW – another responsibility of the DA of tech is to be the chief of tech at the double national. That’s a 4 day assignment this weekend that will take a wee bit of time. Time is short.

I have received your reply and it will be counted with the rest of them.

Toni Creighton
SEDiv DA Tech

[sgallimo]

Toni, thanks for the insite into the rules making process. However, your responses failed to answer the fundamental question being asked: why are you soliciting opinions informally via a forum instead of using a written vote as was required last year?

Scott Gallimore
worker, nat comp license, IT-7 driver,
North Carolina Region Board of Directors, Member at Large

[Toni]

The REs will vote on the IT7 rules for 2007 on July 29th. They will do this with or without any driver input. This will occur on July 29 with or without any proposals from the class review board or the advisory committees. This will occur even if you don’t voice an opinion. This will occur even if I don’t assist the advisory committees in gathering information. This will occur even if the advisory committees don’t give an opinion.

I was appointed DA 5 weeks before the vote on 2007 rules was to occur. Nothing had been started by any of the class advisory boards. Some classes didn’t even have an advisory board. The IT7 committee for rules review for the 2006 season, under the direction of the previous DA, had not initiated a review for the 2007 season. There are time restraints. I could have chosen to ask the class review board if they wanted to accept all the class rules as posted without asking the advisory boards. (I have since found out that some of the class advisory boards have not been contacted for opinion in years. I have found that members of some committees have not been contacted in years and didn’t realize their names were still listed as members of the committees.)

What I chose to do was to begin gathering information to assist all of the advisory boards, not just the one for IT7. I will take the information I gather to the advisory boards. Their reply will be given to the class review board. The opinion of the class review board will be given to the REs for their decision. The REs would have made their decision with out any of the above process. I chose to assist with the gathering of information for the committees so that some driver opinion may possibly be used in the decision by the REs.

Why did I not mail you a ballot and receive replies by mail? Very good question. The answer: 1) I didn’t have time to identify every individual who races, has raced, is building a car, owns a car, or in some other way is connected with IT7 in the Southeast Division. I couldn’t have completed the task any better than your committee did for the 2006 rules review. 2) I didn’t have the desire to address that many envelops. 3) I was not going to spend my own money on postage (I spend enough as it is so others can race without additional $$$ for postage to you.). 4) Your advisory board could have done this again, but didn’t, 5) The REs will make their decision one way or the other on July 29, 6) there were 5 weeks from the time I accepted this position (one of which had to be spent on the double national) to accomplish any portion I chose to do, 7) your electronic opinion is your vote for this year and is just as valid as your paper opinion was for a vote last year, 8) The REs make the decision with or without input, 9) I chose to assist the committees gather information because no one else had begun the process, 10) Electronically was quick and easy and I didn’t have to spend my own money to offer to take your opinion, 11) if you had wanted the process to have been completed in a different way you should have started it for yourself. Reason # 443 – I didn’t do it because I didn’t do it. Should I be DA for 2007 (an appointment made by the 2007 Executive Steward) I will not use paper and postage then either. Reason # 999) You have so much fun griping and complaining electronically that I though you would prefer to give your opinion again electronically.

Now as DA I have access to the SCCA member license data. That data does not identify what class you race. The permanent number information lives in my house. The keeper of the information doesn’t give out your personal address to anyone and wouldn’t give them to me either. (No I didn’t look through his files while he was gone!) I don’t have access to any region’s data for racers with out contacting every registrar and requesting information. They shouldn’t give your personal information to me either.

If you don’t want the racer opinion to be given electronically, then you can choose not to give yours electronically.

I did it this way because this is the method I chose to use. You want it done another way – then do it. You didn’t take the initiative now you want to complain about the way I did it. Soooo SCCA.

You’re welcome.

Toni

[Andy Bettencourt]

Seems like the rules should be carried forward from the previous year in a class like this unless a recommendation from the local IT7 Advisory Board asks for a change (presumable based on member input) or a petition comes in from drivers asking for something they feel is not being properly represented by the Ad-Hoc.

It would seem like a rubber-stamp go from the previous year. In no way should the RE's proactively change the rules of a driver-created and organized psudo-spec class.

AB

[gprodracer]

Toni,

I have met and spoken with you numerous times since I started w/ the SCCA in '85. You probably don't know me from Adam, as you meet thousands of people each year. I just want you to know that there are thousands of us who know you, and Jim, who are aware of the millions of hours of service that you 2 have given our club over your many years of service to us. We can't / don't ever fully express our gratitude for all you two have done .... With that in mind, please forgive all who comment here with anything negative about the current rules in our club, and / or how it affects them.... Lots of people (myself included) are just now becoming aware of the electronic media, and are attempting to let their feelings be known. You are doing everything in your power to let the drivers know what is going on, and the process that they need to follow to get things changed... it's just that some of them just became aware of it, and are frustrated that they can't change things NOW!!!

You shouldn't have to, but please forgive the "technologically challenged" people out there...I'm sure they meant no disrespect... (if they did, I'll be more than happy to deal with that on your behalf!!!)
Thank you for all you do!!!!!!
There are people out here that notice!
Respectfully,
Mark P. Larson
CFR #164010

[Toni]

Thanks Mark,

I'm trying to be as public and above board as possible so that the final vote by the REs is understandable by all. It is a long and tedious process. This is a public as I know how to make it. I don't need to be part of our long history of behind closed doors agreements.

Thanks for your kind words.

Toni

[sgallimo]

How do you describe an attitude like that Toni?? You initiate something in a manner contrary to what was required previously and then get indignant when people point out that ways in which your approach may not be fair. And then you play the "I'm a volunteer and you people are too lazy to do it yourself so I had to do something" card. Amazing, simply amazing.

I'll address your points individually:

1) I didn’t have time to identify every individual who races, has raced, is building a car, owns a car, or in some other way is connected with IT7 in the Southeast Division. I couldn’t have completed the task any better than your committee did for the 2006 rules review.

There is a person listed on the SEDIV website that could probably have helped with the process. He is the SARRC Points Keeper - I suspect that you two have met. The SEDIV website has a list of all of the people that participated in IT-7 last year (ditto for this year). The framers of the IT-7 spec tire rule were able to compile and use a list of drivers. I suspect that one of those folks would have been glad to let you know how they managed to compile a list without sleeping with the keeper of the permanent number information (not that I see how the permanent number info is pertinent to the conversation). If you don't have the time or the resources to perform an optional task then perhaps you should wait to perform that task until you do have those resources and or time.

2) I didn’t have the desire to address that many envelops.

Then perform the poll in an electronic manner or ask for help.

3) I was not going to spend my own money on postage (I spend enough as it is so others can race without additional $$$ for postage to you.).

Since it is a division expense, why would you personally have to cover it? Regardless, you could have conducted the poll in an electronic manner. The problem lies not in your decision to use electronic means instead of tradition mail. The problem lies in the fact that your approach did not receive the coverage that was required in the previous poll.

4) Your advisory board could have done this again, but didn’t,

If you have a problem with the advisory board, I suggest you take it up with them.

5) The REs will make their decision one way or the other on July 29,

You've mentioned this several times and you are correct. But would they have specifically addressed the IT-7 spec tire issue without the effort that you initiated? If not, then your point has no merit.

6) there were 5 weeks from the time I accepted this position (one of which had to be spent on the double national) to accomplish any portion I chose to do,

If you can't do it correctly and fairly, then don't do it until you can.

7) your electronic opinion is your vote for this year and is just as valid as your paper opinion was for a vote last year,

There have been numerous posts to the two threads that you started which indicated that a lot of folks did not know that you were gathering opinions. I've asked this before, how can you compare an obscure post on an unofficial forum to a direct vote of the driving community??

8) The REs make the decision with or without input,

They absolutely will. But why would they change something without prompting? I would like for them to make their decisions based on valid and complete input (just as they did last time). If you can't provide that, then you should have left it alone until you could do so.

9) I chose to assist the committees gather information because no one else had begun the process,

The process was begun and was completed. That's why it is part of the current rules.

10) Electronically was quick and easy and I didn’t have to spend my own money to offer to take your opinion,

There is nothing wrong with the electronic approach as long as you take the time and the responsibility to gather complete, factual information.

11) if you had wanted the process to have been completed in a different way you should have started it for yourself.

The IT-7 driving community apparently wanted it completed in a different way because some of their number went to the DA of Tech, followed the indicated process, created a ballot, created a list of voters, distributed the ballots, collected the results, and presented them to the proper officials. As indicated previously, the community voted 5 to 1 for the spec tire.

Reason # 443 – I didn’t do it because I didn’t do it. Should I be DA for 2007 (an appointment made by the 2007 Executive Steward) I will not use paper and postage then either.

"Your way or the highway" is not an appropriate philosophy for any office in this club, appointed or otherwise. It is important for us to remember that you are a volunteer but it is equally important for you to remember that you volunteered to do a particular job.

Reason # 999) You have so much fun griping and complaining electronically that I though you would prefer to give your opinion again electronically.

Perform the task fairly and completely and the complaints won't matter.

---------------------------------

The fact that the RE's will vote on July 29th with or without driver input has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether your approach is fair and valid. If you have complaints about the way the Class Review Board and the Advisory Boards have been taking care of business, address it with them and stop mucking around with the rules that our membership voted on -- unless you are willing to gather information from everyone.

We are all glad that you are attempting to assist the various committees. We just want you to do it fairly. If you can't do that because you don't have time or because your approach is flawed, then don't do it. The current IT-7 rules are working and can easily stand as they are until the IT-7 membership, not the handful of front-runners, decide, as a group, that they want them changed.

The membership was contacted previously and their responses tallied. There is absolutely no valid reason that that can't be done again before any rules changes are proposed to anyone.

You said, "You didn’t take the initiative now you want to complain about the way I did it". You need to remember that the membership did take the initiative. We put together a ballot and voted. The only reason we are complaining is because you are trying to negate that very initiative that you say we should take.

I don't know if you're interested in the 2005 drivers or the 2006 drivers but a quick glance at the Points Section of the SEDIV website shows 43 names in the IT-7 SARRC group and an additional 7 unique names in the IT-7 ECR group so far this year. The site also shows 65 names in the IT-7 SARRC group and an additional 17 unique names in the IT-7 ECR group for 2005. Now if you're prepared to demonstrate that your approach has garnered "opinions" of a similar percentage of the folks that the previous vote reached (ie, number of ballots returned versus number of active drivers), then I'll gladly remove my objections.

Thanks,
Scott Gallimore
paying member of this club and fellow volunteer.

[Toni]

Thank you for your comments.

The tire issue for IT7 and SM would have gone to the REs along with items from other classes whether I became the DA or if the previous DA was still there. It has been brought to the attention of the Executive Steward, the Directors, and many REs by numbers of people in the IT7 driving community. It was in contention before I accepted this position. I’m just a bit more public with requests for information than the previous DA. I don’t work behind closed doors as some tend to do. Open information tends to attract attention. Thank you for your attention.

Your advisory board is working very hard to gather information to help them prepare a proposal for the 2007 rules. I am assisting them. I will give them the tally tonight to use for information. They will return their collective decision to me over the weekend. Their decision along with any information they wish to pass along to the Class Review Board will be sent at the first of the week. The decision of the Class Review Board will be passed on to the REs. The REs will make the decision on all of the Regional Classes for 2007 at their meeting July 29.

If you wish to assist with this task, please do so. Send you information either to me to pass along or directly to the IT7 committee. Their names and contact information has be listed somewhere on this board. Time is short. Do it now.

And as far as getting your personal information from the SARRC Administrator or the permanent number keeper, as I said before, he doesn’t give out your personal information to any one, even me.

Your assistance, opinions on the tire issue, opinions of the process for rules review, your willingness to run for office in your region, and your willingness to volunteer are all welcome. Your personal attacks are not.

Toni Creighton

[Andy Bettencourt]

Somebody needs to start from scratch on this. If the IT7 Ad-hoc guys can't see there are about 3 different problems then they need more input.

1. Ricky. If there are more opinions like Ricky's, then those guys need to mobilize and get more tires on the ballot.

2. In today's SCCA, when you say 'spec tire', it is probably gonna be the Toyo. It ain't the fastest but it sure as heck lasts a long time and is a good tire - to me great qualities for a spec tire.

3. The IT7 Ad-hoc needs to get this train under control. Get a proper ballot - to all the drivers (anyone who ran ONE or more events - because they could have run more if they like the rules) and put a rule into effect for 2-3 years and live with it. Give the decision some time to either run guys out who don't like it or attract new drivers based on it's popularity. After that time period, either do the entire formal process again or put in the rules that it will get rubber stamped unless there is a motion to re-vote by the members (or Ad-hoc on their behalf)

4. Don't do this stuff half-ass-ed. You either take it on and do it right (and not do it again if it sucks or costs you money) or don't do it at all. The Ad-Hoc is there for a reason. Put it on them. That is what they volunteer for - to be the voice of the drivers. If they are ineffective, vote in new guys.

Use all the mediums for info as you can. All the divisions in the SeDiv presumably have monthly publications. Put a notice of the ballot - or put the dang ballot in each publication.

The RE's may be just rubber stamping this for 2007 (as they should be with no additional member input - or formal complaints) but the perception created here is that the rules could change in any way without anyone knowing why, how or when. Toni - you have created a monster here and you need to fix it - do it through the Ad-Hoc. Tell them the goal of the vote and ask them if THEIR drivers have any input.

Drivers - if your Ad-hoc guy doesn't know your thoughts - shame on you.

AB (not in SeDiv but the principals apply)
SMAC
ITAC
NER BoD
STAC
etc.

[steve s]

well said andy.!!!!! i agree with you 100%.

[Toni]

The committee is working on this. I'm merely assisting them. I am collecting opinion at my email address [email protected]. The committee is the three previous members and 2 new volunteers - they are listed somewhere on this website in another thread. They are professional people with interests in IT7. They will make a recommendation that they feel will be the best for the class in 2007.

I didn't create this monster. This monster was created when the 2006 rules were activated just before the 2005 SIC and enforced for the event when there had been an open tire rule all year. There has been much controversy and discussion all year. Many IT7 drivers contacted the previous DA, the REs, the Exec Steward, and grumbled at every person they could find all year. Requests for rule review have been made by the drivers themselves, the SARRC Administrator, and the ECR Administrator. This all fell in my lap (along with the other regional classes) at the end of May.

The committee and the other regional class advisory boards will provide a proposal for 2007 rules over the weekend. These proposals will be given to the Class Review Board (chiefs of tech in the racing regions) as required in the regional class rules on the sedivracing.org website as soon as I have everything (Sunday night, Monday AM?) The final rules recommendation from the CRB will be presented to the REs for acceptance or rejection at the mid year meeting July 29th.

One of the main issues is that last year the competitors that actually received a paper request for opinion were led to believe that they had the final say on the rules and that they were cast in stone forevermore without review. There were many who did not receive the request for input. The REs make the final decision on all the regional class rules - every year. Some may vote their own opinion. Some may take the recommendations of the CRB, advisory boards, and the racers. One way or the other the REs will make the final decision on the 2007 rules just as they did in 2006. They would have also made the decision without anyone's opinion being asked. I asked for an opinion. The IT7 advisory group will have this information when they make a proposal. The CRB will also have this material. The REs will have this material. They can choose to use it or not.

Toni Creighton