M'kay - so think out of the box...

[ddewhurst]

Multiple sets of skocks, nothing new there.

Multiple this & that, nothing new there.

Buying tire take offs, nothing new there.

Tire companys meeting the customer needs, nothing new there.

Back to the Spec tire for Kart racing. The tires were Bridgstone YBN IIRC. Shave em, who cares. Goop em, who cares. There was a loose rule that you couldn't goop em at the track. Woo-pe, big deal, the goop penetrated better after a time period. There were several goops on the market, you know who had a lab do an analysis of the rubber, had a chemest friend design some exact goop for the tire compound, nothing new there. Except head food. Did the designed goop help my season while winning a championship, you bet it did along with a bunch of other items.

Buying new Spec Kart tires each week, no advantage with these weekly new tires, still nothing new there.

The friken tires worked for a Spec Kart tire. Nuff said by me.

[sstecker]

could spec megasquirt with specd sensors and code version locked by md5 checksum - would keep abs/traction control out of it.

ita rims => 13lbs

read about one open wheel series that specd hard compound tires - said it negated fancy suspensions since the tires would just slide out - think they also limited # of tires per season and kept the tires between races on a truck.

[lateapex911]

could spec megasquirt with specd sensors and code version locked by md5 checksum - would keep abs/traction control out of it.

ita rims => 13lbs

read about one open wheel series that specd hard compound tires - said it negated fancy suspensions since the tires would just slide out - think they also limited # of tires per season and kept the tires between races on a truck.
[/b]

I appreciate the blue sky concept, but...

Any rule that limits wheels to a certain weight for a class, like 13lb for ITA misses the point...now all guys in ITA have worthless used light wheels AND they have to buy 12 NEW heavy wheels.

Question on the Solo tire rule: While new tires appeared that were faster, met the treadwear requirements, and were more expensive, how long do they last? I don't care if a tire is 50% more expensive, if its as fast as anything, and lasts twice as long!

[ddewhurst]

Opp's

[benracin]

I haven't been around here for awhile but this was a good topic because this year I've decided that I just can't afford it and doing just one race a year is feeling like it's just not worth it anymore. What I'm noticing for people my age is that they really want to race, but smacking down $300 to go have a little fun is a ton when that amount of money can buy the next go-fast goodie you've been saving up for. Where I'm seeing the growth at is at the circle tracks. It's a stupid class but it's cheap and you get to go fast. You take a $200 piece of crap, gut it, take out the windows, put a door bar on it, and race it. There's a claim rule too so don't spend any money on your $200 piece of crap. Only problem with this class is the rules totally suck. It all depends on the way the tech guy is feeling that day. If he jumps on your hyundai accent and says it's too stiff, and you say it's all stock what do you want me to do? Then he says I'm the tech guy and it's too stiff so you're cheating. It's stupid.

Anyhoo, the point I'm getting at is why can't this fomula apply to road racing, although a little safer. You take a car from this range to this range. You gut it, you put in a cage, seat and harness and some tires. $1000 claim rule, costs $100 to race it. Maybe not as many laps to justify the cost. Stick or auto doesn't matter because who cares. We're just trying to race here. Take out the side and rear glass and paint a number on it.

What you have there is a class where anyone can go dig up a car and turn into a race car for cheap. Hell, could be done over the weekend. Maybe the numbers grow and you actually have people coming to the track to watch these funny junk cars race each other. I know there's truck loads of crappy pontiac grand whatevers out there that would make really fun cheap race cars.

There's really nothing to why the younger crowd isn't showing up. It costs a lot of money and I don't want to screw up my kickin' mazda 3. But I can buy a geo prism for $250, put a cage in it and go road racing? NO SH!T? I'd be there in a second. Got 5 friends that would join me. Look, I just boosted the number of race cars and drivers by 5. That's more than a whole ITC class. Have that many people joined the ITA ranks in the last 5 years in a region?

With this idea also come chimp simple rules. Got to be less then this engine size. The only things you can touch are gutting the inside of the car and putting tires on the stock wheels. YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ELSE. There, that's the whole rule book. What's the car classing procedure? Bring the car to the track. If it matches my 3 sentence rule book it's classed. That saves a little paper work at the head office and also justifies the cheap entrance fee.

Maybe this class doesn't get to go to the run offs. Maybe this class has less track time. Maybe it only gets one practice session. It doesn't really matter. When all we're talking about winning is a stupid plastic trophy does it really matter where that stupid trophy comes from? At least you got to race, and you actually got to road race like you see on TV. With the budget I try to save up for my 1 race a year I could buy a cheap car like this, prep it, and probably race a couple times. It's so easy! Plus, wouldn't it be just awesome to watch 10 crappy grand ams go flying into turn 1 at blackhawk? If I was running in some other class I'd be excited to actually go watch a race! I'm sure the corner workers would get a little more practice too.

I've written long enough but I guess I got fired up. I'm kind of mad that I can't race anymore and I think this solution would rock. I have a friend with two junk hyundai accents in his garage that run. Just tell me when baby!

[lateapex911]

Opp's
[/b]

Huh???

There must be more, right??

[dickita15]

I appreciate the blue sky concept, but...

Any rule that limits wheels to a certain weight for a class, like 13lb for ITA misses the point...now all guys in ITA have worthless used light wheels AND they have to buy 12 NEW heavy wheels.

[/b]

Jake while I appreciate your comments about any of these ideas being difficult to use in IT that is not what we are talking about. This is a blue sky thread and early on in the thread the discussion started with sub classes or new classes. I am interested in ways that a class could be set up that would make racing cheaper, easier and fun. Maybe some of these ideas could be useful in IT or maybe they could be used for a local class or maybe they have no use at all, but I think this type of discussion is very useful in exploring why we do what we do the way we do it.

[JLawton]

What you have there is a class where anyone can go dig up a car and turn into a race car for cheap. Hell, could be done over the weekend. Maybe the numbers grow and you actually have people coming to the track to watch these funny junk cars race each other. [/b]

Actually, I think thats how IT started!!


I like your idea. Totally stock, older car with a cage and R tires. You can remove anything you want, but meet a minimum weight. Stock bushings, shocks, engines, wheels, ............

[tnord]

and then the "junkyard" class gets popular......and then there are lots of entrants.....and then some guy finds an old camaro stroker motor to throw in his junkyard camaro chassis......and then the other guy throws a new set of konis in a mudpuddle to make them look like junk..........and then the $ war is on


sorry....SM has jaded me.

[DavidM]

There's really nothing to why the younger crowd isn't showing up. It costs a lot of money and I don't want to screw up my kickin' mazda 3. But I can buy a geo prism for $250, put a cage in it and go road racing? NO SH!T? I'd be there in a second. Got 5 friends that would join me. Look, I just boosted the number of race cars and drivers by 5. That's more than a whole ITC class. Have that many people joined the ITA ranks in the last 5 years in a region?
[/b]

Somebody asked why the younger crowd isn't showing up to race. There ya go. I can understand where they're coming from. One reason I got into racing was so I wouldn't screw up my street car at track days. I could afford to spend some money, though.

I'd have to say this doesn't sound like such a bad idea. My concerns would be how do you make it safe and how do you keep it from turning into a demolition derby. I could see stewards being kept busy with lots of contact.

People have noted before how much cheaper it is to go circle track racing than road racing. A lot of it probably has to do with the lack of safety equipment, but it seems like it would be possible to have a cheap road racing class. It's never going to be super cheap as long as there are safety mandates, but it could be cheap enough to get more people involved. Somebody is probably going say you can get an ITB or ITC car cheap, but we all know getting the car is just the start. A class such as this would have minimal on-going expenses. Of course, we wouldn't want to have to be stopping the race every 5 minutes to get broken down cars off the track either. I think it's an interesting idea to ponder.

David

[benracin]

Alright, we're getting somewhere!

As for minimum weights I think that would lead down the road to more expenses and office mumbo jumbo once more. With minimum weights it's not long to people are crying for competition adjustments and "my car is too heavy". For the cheap price shut your yap and go get a lighter car. The minimum weight is what the car weighs once you take out the interior, and that's it. I know I'm talking tough but my goal would be to make it so it CAN'T get more expensive. The goal here is to have fun racing. We all know that you don't have to lead the race to have fun, although it's nice. My favorite races were racing with ITB cars in my ITA car. So even if you're slow you'll have fun with someone.

As for the motors, in the rules stock is stock is stock. If it's not stock, it's not stock. So you would still need the protest part of the deal. If your car is blowing people away and nobody can figure out why, prepare to have your car claimed. Claim rules can be a stinker though. I think I would vote for the claim rule where you have to be entered in the race in order to claim the other persons car. And maybe something like if you claim a person's car (minues the safety equipment) they get a chance to buy yours. I just don't like the idea of leaving someone out in the cold.

Safety. That would and should be the important and expensive part here. I think this class would be limited to 4 cyl cars because we don't need guys flying down the track in a big V8 wondering if the brakes would hold. And like our other classes hitting is a no no and you'll get in trouble for it if you do it. I'm sure these cars won't hold the road as good so there will probably be some light contact. But maybe at this price range that wouldn't be that much of a problem. Right now our cars cost lots of money and so do the parts. Some of our cars are so old that body parts are really non-existant. So some dents would just have to be alright.

It may be a junk yard class but it doesn't have to act like one. The cars should be clean, well numbered, and parts shouldn't just fly off of them. Brakes need to work and it needs to look like it can go around the track with out killing someone.

Man would I love to see this class come to life. Just think how easy it is. No big scary rule book (another reason why I think kids get scared away from this). No mega huge entry fees. No scary legal looking classification process. Just get some safety gear, a cheap car, and lets go racing.

And about that rule book and all the other mumbo jumbo you have to do to go racing. Can you imagine trying to talk a kid into this by finishing this sentence:

"Sure you can go road racing, it's easy! All you need is..."

All I can think about is read giant hard to understand rule book... pay for memberhip $$, get car $$$$$$, is car legal? Did you read your book? Get car tech'd (where's that at?). Go to school (where?) $$$$$$. Pay for racing license $$. Good, now go race! $$$ Oh, and next year you get to pay BOTH memberships again. $$,$$.

When my license fees showed up this year I actually laughed. Stupid money.

[lateapex911]

Jake while I appreciate your comments about any of these ideas being difficult to use in IT that is not what we are talking about. This is a blue sky thread and early on in the thread the discussion started with sub classes or new classes. I am interested in ways that a class could be set up that would make racing cheaper, easier and fun. Maybe some of these ideas could be useful in IT or maybe they could be used for a local class or maybe they have no use at all, but I think this type of discussion is very useful in exploring why we do what we do the way we do it.
[/b]

Sorry Dick, I read the title and saw "IT classes OR IT like classes" and some of the responses were referrencing IT specifically.

RE: the circle track thing, I think it's important to remember that it's really apples to oranges. What kindof insurance enefits are the drivers covered with? Clearly the cars are crap.....I have been to some circle tracks and have been amazed at the complete casual barefeet in the paddock 12 feet from the corner with parts flying through the air mentality.

Are we too concerned with safety in the SCCA?

Why is it Ok at the circle track, but not at the roadcourse track?

Discussion questions mostly....

[benspeed]

This is a great thread. I was just thinking about how to attract more racers and a big part of the obstacle is putting a cage in the car. If we/SCCA could figure out how to make it easier to direct new racers to good cage builders that would be a great first step. Now if the vendors who serve the road racing industry were sharp, they would consider sponsoring part of a cage build because once the cage is in, the spending to keep racing remains constant. Get more cages in cars, more ongoing spending to race continues and usually grows as the racer earns more $$. A sponsorship by a vendor might include the obligation by the racer to buy a certain spend of parts or services. The problem is how to enforce the obligation without the vendor losing their shirt or calling in Jacoby and Myers.

I wonder how a vendor might sponsor a racer who needs a cage or how the SCCA might sponsor more cages? By taking a strong role in how the most expensive and difficult to find/install safety component of a car is installed, we can also potentialy increase quality control around cages. I believe bolt in cages are now correctly outlawed by SCCA in IT?

Tell me if I'm wrong, but don't most newbies want to build their car? I know I did, despite all of the good advice to buy a built car. I have a good friend who's about to make the same mistakes. I even offered to loan him money to buy a built car, but he wants to build it himself.

In the thread of keeping the intro costs down we could also build a class called Spec IT. In this class we would select very comparable cars from each major racing brand and basically equal up the cars with weight or other "non-expensive" methods. In this class there would be competition adjustments similar to World Challenge so the class doesn't have runaway winners every time. This class could become the most participated and cheapest to run. If you throw down for the big buck motor then you will pickup some rewards weight. If you don't want to buy more brake pads and tires, don't build the engineered motor. We could make that weight come off easy too - but not all the weight, so sandbagging won't pay off totally.

The cars selected would be on the highly plentiful, inexpensive shells with plentiful parts and cheap motors. If we required each marque to paint the car a specific color we create a brand rivalry situation that might compel some sponsorship/contingency awards from each Marque.

Final point - Spec IT would be made up of cars that are also newer - nothing from the 80's.

OK - tear in.

[JMohn]

Let me start off by saying that I have never actually raced on a road course. I've tried autocrossing and I've tried the afforementioned circle track "junker" class and I've really enjoyed them both and also found them both a little lacking. I've also been a "lurker" on this forum and some other websites from time to time, but this particular thread inspired me to sign up and post. You see, I'm an outsider. New blood. And I feel that I'm the kind of person you're trying to attract. If I'm wrong' feel free to ignore or delete my post, or whatever is appropriate, but here's my $0.02:

The first half of this thread really had very little to do with attracting new people. It was more about how to better serve the people who were already there, IMHO. Speaking as someone on the outside, an awful lot is being asked up front just to even try it.

One of the biggest reasons for the "junker" classes at your local circle track is that they expect you to get hooked. They make it easy to get in and give it a shot. They expect that a certain percentage of those people who came out and tried it will come back again and again and will eventually move up into a higher, more-competitive class.

I took a quick look at the first few pages of the classifieds on this site, and it looks like a "cheap" car can be found for $3,000-5,000. Lets say I spent $4,000 on a ready-to-race ITC car because I'm not looking for a project (my experience is that they cost more than they save in the long run). Then I will have to buy/borrow a trailer and tow rig, travel a fair distance (maybe everyone lives closer to a road course than I do), pay a membership fee, pay an entrance fee, etc. That's a heck of a commitment to "try" something new.

Some of this (like traveling) is "just the way it is" and I don't see how any new rules or classes are going to move the road course as close as my local circle track. But there are certainly ways to make the rest of it a little easier.

On the other hand, I think the three-sentence rulebook is a bit light. Part of making it safe is keeping the cars from being too fast. Limiting the cars to 4-cyl, no turbos makes sense. You could further limit cars to SOHC or limited displacement or whatever you have to do to make sure the cars are slow enough. The car would be required to be "functional" obviously, so that means all forward and reverse gears must work, all four tires must have good rubber and brakes must function at each corner. Required safety gear would include a roll cage, fire extinguisher, and removing all glass but the windshield, etc. Of course, safety would be at the discretion of the tech inspector and any vehicle declared "unsafe" would not be allowed to participate.

As far as everything else goes: stock. That's the simpliest way to go. If it wasn't available on that model then it can't be there. intake, engine, transmission, exhaust, suspension, brakes. For the sake of simplicity, I'd probably leave shocks and tires open for change since these items wear out. Perhaps limit tire sizes?

I think the very first post mentioned claims. Claim rules have been around forever and are the easiest and most effective way of keeping things cheap cheap cheap. I think a $1,000 claim is fair. I know from experience I could put together a safe, reliable car for that much...maybe even less. Let me keep my racing seat and harness in the event of a claim. Perhaps even a $500 swap rule but the person requesting the swap must have a legal, functioning vehicle for the swap. That way no one is left without a car at the end of the day, and if you were really dumb and bought $2,500 worth of shocks because I left it open for you, you'd better not let me see them or I'll be claiming your car and beating you with it next time.

Keep the entry fees as cheap as possible and don't make me jump through a lot of hoops to try your sport. I haven't spent a lot on racing schools and I'm sure I'd be the slowest person here, but I'll bet I can get a car around the track without losing control or hurting anyone and I know what all the flags mean.

If you want to attract new people to the sport, make it easy for them. After a few races, a few of us might even enjoy it enough to be willing to pony up a bit and move up the ranks. That's how it works at the circle tracks. [whew, that got long...sorry]

[dickita15]

so you want to call it UT (Uninproved Touring)

I must admit this is interesting, and I know some will yell at this but I think you need some way to tune the suspension, maybe just springs or just sway bars.

[lateapex911]

I've always wondered about the "Come race with us, do the two schools where we drill inot you regulations and protocol, as well as a little theory, then race with the big boys" methodology. Jeeeezzz...talk about intimidating! I know guys who never got up to speed for two races, just because they were so busy getting out of the fast guys way!

The whole "Regioanl National" thing akes little sense to me. I think we should think more in terms of Novice and Expert, and Regioal Races and Divisional races. And all natioanlly recognized classes are at all events, including the Runoffs, if they meet subscription requirements.

And novices race in the Novice group until they are ready for the big time. Seems to work in lots of other sports. (I know, not enough track time...siggghhh)

And i like the free thinking here, but isn''t an old Showroom Stock car basically an Unimproved Touring car?

[Z3_GoCar]

Hey,

This is pure blue-sky, but how about a class to road race mini-vans? Did anyone see the Top Gear episode where some of the top Touring drivers from the UK raced mini-vans? Any one with a four cylinder, Chrysler Caravan, GM Astro, Ford Windstar, take all the glass out including the windshield and drive with the face shield down and leave them all stock, as if you could even find Koni SA's :P

Another blue-sky class for Tow Vehicals

James

[sstecker]

local track rules - $100 for 50 laps and winner gets 1/2 of purse.




2006 Junkyard Division

Safety Rules:



Driving Suit - Required


Approved Helmet - Required

*Fire Extinguisher - Required


Window Net - Required

Seatbelt & Harness - Required


Padded around driver - Required



*Fire extinguisher 1 lb. minimum. - Fire extinguisher must be in drivers reach.

Seat with seatbelt and shoulder harness required



(Optional) Safety items maybe added. Fuel cell, race seat, five point harness, cockpit reforcement.



General Rules



No Convertibles


No Trucks


No Buses

No 4 Wheel drive Vehicles


No Station Wagons


No Muscle Cars

No Mustangs, Firebirds, Camero


No Compact Cars


No Domestic Sports Cars



Any V6 engine full size car.

Four doors cars only.

Front wheel drive only. (Pure stock drive train)

No gear lock front ends.

Automatic transmissions.

Engines must be strictly stock for make and model of car, and must retain original mounting position.

No modifications to steering or suspension. Suspension parts must remain stock.

Stock intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, converter, muffler, and tailpipe must be in stock

Battery must be mounted under hood or trunk.

Car numbers must be painted/decaled at least 18” high on both front doors and roof. Roof numbers to read from

driver side.

Must be at least 14 years old to drive and if under 18 years old, must have parents sign release.







Body Rules



All chrome trim, plastic and glass lenses, door hardware, side windows, carpet, upholstery and headliners must be removed. Dash may be removed to add dash bar.

Must run front windshield. (Plexiglas is legal)

All body parts must be factory for that make, model and year. All parts must be securely fastened. No lightening of body.

Stock floor pans. Firewalls, trunk, ect. Must be retained. Fuel tank or fuel cell maybe mounted in trunk provided trunk is closed off from the driver. Must be securely supported by a minimum of two 2X 1/8 inch steel straps.

All doors must be welded bolted or chained.


Tire & Rims



Tires Size - 70’s - P215, P225, P235.

Each car must run the same P’s size on all four wheels.

Rims - R14, R15 - Width is not to exceed 8”.





Entry Fee $100.00 per car. (Winner will get haft of total purse.)

Division will run once a month.

No protest - Track will check tires, lock differentials, and safety equipment.

[benracin]

BOOYA!

[AntonioGG]

Spec Retired Police Cruiser (SRPC)

Tires--shaved Goodyear Eagle GAs
Can be Caprice or Crown Vic (The Vickies must use a fuel cell since they come with exploding tanks)
No big block Blues Brother specials allowed.
Turrets optional...if added they must be covered with clear tape.
Sirens optional.

All standard SCCA safety equipment and car can be stripped and glass removed.

"It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it the new Bluesmobile or what?" Elwood Blues