ITB Legality

[Andy Bettencourt]

Welcome Marios. Care to share with us all the three items and we can help you determine legality (or muddy-up the grey area)?

Unfortunately, everyone has the right to post what they want. What is great is that you have the right to post a rebuttle and have the rest of the BB make up our own mind.

Of the 3 items listed:

Any 'shortening' to an axle is not permitted
Solid front motor mounts are not permitted (a front 'stayrod' may be ADDED, not substituted for a MM)
Batteries must be of the same size, type and voltage may be used - anything smaller is not permitted

As far as 'nice' guys? I think they are. This may seem a little extreme but you come off fine here. New driver with a car you bought from someone else...no issues. Heck, almost every car in the classifieds lists something questionable as a 'feature'.

If you think something is legal that someone else doesn't - debate it here - you will for sure learn all the angles!

AB

PS: Try lowercase...

[RSTPerformance]

MARIOS-

I do think you are a great guy... personally I have NO ISSUES at all with you, and I believe you that you will fix the issues by the next race. As mentioned before I look forward to racing with you again in the near future. I don't think anyone else here or at the track has a problem with you either (even after the post). The posting sure is a wakeup call to some, and hopefully shows everyone that we want a legal class, sorry you had to be the example. I do realize it is/was a bold step that many here probably would want to take but don't to keep the peace.

On another side note, if you at all questioned the legality of the parts we talked about then I would NOT have posted anything that mentioned your name. I would have asked for a rules clarification from the BB and brought to you the resulting conversation at our next event.

I hope you have no hard feelings, and I hope you realize that your minor (IMO) example might help the entire class!!!

Raymond

PS: As for us not wanting anyone else to come in first... Sure we like to compete, and we love the enjoyment of harrasing our friends and getting harrased here and at the track, but to say we really care about the 2 cent trophie that much is a stupid statement and if it wasn't sarcastic (I hope it was) then it hurts my credability towards you. We have high goals for ourselves, but that keeps us going and we actually don't win that often. Our entire crew is generally the first ones in impound congradulating whomever all the winners are that had to go to impound. I personally have only 1 sprint race win and 1 endurance race win in my SCCA career.

PSS: Andy nice shot of the car!!!

[gran racing]

You really only have one sprint race win??? Including the recent win in the rain at NHIS?

[RSTPerformance]

yup... Stephen has a bit more, but I only have 1!!! Our cars perform well at tracks like Pocono, Watkins Glen and Road Atlanta because of top end power and speed IMO. At Pocono this past weekend it was fun watching SSM cars draft and start to pass, then hit thier peak speed, and we continued to accelerate as we can get up to about 130mph before the car runs out of gearing (tested on numerouse street cars in our "teenage" days). I think a VW and most other cars max out at about 120mph but I could be wrong.

In the rain (NHIS example), I think that we are (insert big head smiley ) good drivers, but the cars also have a very long wheelbase making them handle a bit better than others. I also have an extensive background in ice racing, rallycross, as well as stage rally driving (no sanctioned pro or club rallies other than Mt Washington Hillclimb). That experience (controled events as well as homemade events in our teenage and current years) tought me a lot on how to drive in adverse conditions.

At tracks like Lime Rock and NHIS we have to really abuse the cars to be as fast as we are, but we generally are NOT the fastest cars on the track in ITB... Dave I expect you to be as fast or faster than us!!!

Raymond

PS: on a side note other Audi's hold or have held track records in the southeast as well as the midwest... while we hate to admit it our cars are far from the best, and will admit that anyday.

[HOOSER 99]

Just my 2 cents....

He was told by a group of ITB drivers that we expect all repairs to be made by the next event. He was unaware of his illegality and was very understanding and willing to make changes.[/b]

I had Marios as a student at school at the Glen and that is the impression of the man that I took away from 2 days with him. I also got the impression that he bought the car as it was and he assumed it was legal.

I think that it was good of you guys to give him until the next event to fix the problems, BUT airing the whole thing out on a public forum is where I have a problem. If there is paper filed (see "A PROTEST STORY") then it is public record and you can go at it until your fingers bleed. In this case the man agreed to fix it by the next race, so shouldn't we give him until then, and then if it isn't done you have the options outlined by Jack Hannifan.

I think I know Raymond well enough to know that he only wants what is best for us as a group, just keep in mind there might be some embarrasment to other people.

jerry monaghan

PS the blethens aren't cheating----they just have 1 cylinder too many

[RSTPerformance]

Jerry-

you bring up a good point... I felt this was a "new" way of dealing with something that we have all talked about for years on these BB as well as others. With some of the feedback and looking back on things I wonder if all this tizy is worth it to me. I am very open to doing what everyone else feels is best. I don't want to be the only one calling things out, but I think that I might be, wich will certainly disccourage me from doing it.

Feel free to debate/comment here or send me a PM, e-mail, or call me (603-738-6686) anytime. I am also available at the track if anyone is interested in discussing.

Sorry again Marios if I caused you any embarrasment, it wasn't ment to, and I have a tendance to see the glass 1/8 full rather than 7/8 empty so I try to look at the positives rather than the negatives, but I can certainly see your view. Personaly I feel you shouldn't be embarrased as you were clear to us that you were unaware (we all are unaware of things) and that you would fix it by next race. My only problem is others make that same promis and never follow through. If I were to never race with you again, how would anyone else know to check?

Raymond

[Bildon]

Mario,
I too would like to apologize about my comment above and our discussion of parts that were not legal.

While I do remember having this discussion, I made an assumption that the parts everybody is talking about here are the parts that we were discussing on the phone. In retrospect I dont remember what parts I mentioned would not be legal in IT and I dont remember if you actually ever bought any non-IT parts from Bildon. Therefore I really should not have made the comments that I made above.

[MCTPE]

As I said in my e-mail to the Audi brothers, I would accept their apology, but the way they acted, especially
after our conversdation at the track I think that they did not act as human beings and I still feel very sorry for them because they luck some maturity, which apparently in their case case will come with age. Good luck to them.

[lateapex911]

Ok, this has been hashed out many times... how to keep everyone legal??? I am not about to hash this out but rather proceed with a process that a group of ITB drivers agreed to at the last weekends event at Pocono. For whatever reason I am the most outspoken one so I am posting, but I certainly hope others post in the future when issues arise. Use this forum and "bump" it up in the future so we can be reminded when this process works...

The Process:
1) When known illegalities are found or known, inform the driver as a group that he/she has till the next event to fix it.

2) Post on an open forum (preferably this forum and thread) the illegal parts that are expected to be fixed.

3) Check at the next event he/she runs to be sure that he/she has fixed the known problems. - It is important that someone checks, not necessarily the poster or informer of the issues, as he/she may not be at the event. We can not ensure legal cars are running in ITB if people do not follow through with each side, the fixer and the checker!!!

4) If the car is found not to have been fixed a protest NEEDS/WILL be filed at every event their after until a resolution has arisen.
Now with that said, if a competitor has a legit reason for the illegal part (s) I/we am sure that we can be reasonable on extending the repair time, so long as it is not the reason the person is beating someone else. Example, if a competitor is running illegal shortened axles on a VW and he/she can not get it fixed for the next event due to financial constraints or mechanical knowledge constraints, we may be flexible, but please post on this forum any agreements that you may have so that legality is followed through in the end.

Raymond Blethen
ITB Audi Coupe #51

__________________________________________________ _____________________________


[/b]

Well.

I have given this a little thought.

First, as many know, I am not a fan of cheating. And I have put my money where my mouth is, so to speak. I also have been beaten up, to a degree, by the "system".

That said, I applaud efforts to keep classes clean. But there are downsides.

What happens when you THINK a guy is running, oh...say, just for giggles, high comp pistons? What do you do, go talk to him? And if he says "Thats great guys, but I'm clean", what do you do? Protest? What if you lack the time? Or the $?? Then what? Post on the site?? What if he doesn't even have net access? See what can happen? No real proof, but a guilty stigma gets attached to the guy and he can't even defend himself. (A classic Mattberg tactic: Name the guy and his crime on some website somewhere, demand response, then label him guilty when none is forthcoming, all the time ignoring the fact the guy can't even spell "WWW", LOL)

And I'm not sure if I'm a fan of posting on the net any "We found XYZ items on Harry Balszacs Blowhard Special" either. Lots of downsides. What about the newbie? He might be driving a car he purchased assuming it was legal. That's a crime of the seller, not him. He's now one of the victims. If he balks and denies, or refuses to fix it reasonably, then it's protest time. Public humiliation is appropriate AFTER the verdict has come down, not before. Why? Because the protest process is a documented thing. Without third party documentation anyone can come post here, and say this or that, and the other guy can post this and that, and there is no reality to it. No documentation. It can become a he said, she said fiasco.

My suggestion, leave the names out of it. If you feel inclined to post, post the crime, but leave the car and the driver out of it. If it's not fixed in an appropriate period, then protest, and post the facts of the protest.

JMHO, but the net has become an effective mis-information tool, even among responsible users.

(I debated heavily when posting my "Protest story" and actually left out a variety of things that weren't easily documneted, and tried to be as factual as possible. I felt the facts would speak for themselves)

[pfcs]

well put Jake. I fully agree.
this is a totally inappprpriate forum to accuse or judge someone illegal on.

[RSTPerformance]

well put Jake. I fully agree.
this is a totally inappprpriate forum to accuse or judge someone illegal on.
[/b]

This might be a beaten dead horse already, but I didn't notice the additional posts till a minute ago, and felt I should respond

Phil-

I also agree... Totally inappropriate place to accuse or judge someone illegal. I do think it is a totally different story when it comes to non-questionable items especially those that the drivers agrees is illegal. I would NEVER accuse someone of being illegal in a forum such as this when I didn't have facts or a real life experience to back it up.

I don't like filing protests, and would like to see another method taken as a first step among drivers. From being on both sides of the fence as a steward IN TRAINING and a driver I think a first step before protests is healthy for all of us.

My retrospect thought on the process as a whole is that I would still rather suffer being "exposed" (as people seam to fear so much) first on an open forum with factual information rather than get protested and DSQ'd at an event. To me this approach is far more favorable to all parties involved, however once again I support the class as a whole, or the group of people who are at the event. However it is handled is fine with me. I will request that if this route is taken again someone else in the group posts next time so that I am not the only one targeted as the mean guy.

On a side note I respect any and all private comments or anonymous comments that have been made to me outside this forum vie phone, e-mail and PM's. Feel free to continue to contact me to discuss. I am working with a few people on another idea that might be more favorable amongst my fellow drivers/competitors. Once I get some feedback I will make a posting for others to chime in with their thoughts.

Once again, thanks to all for their comments good and bad. I certainly think this has been a productive thread that has us actually thinking and making a change. I know I am sick of listening to rumors and seeing no action (With exception to "a protest story" and the one protest in SM last year both with vastly different results).

Raymond 'Sometimes I wonder if my efforts are worth it?" Blethen

[67ITB]

To join in here late…… and go back a few days ……

From what my source tells me the shortening of the axle is some thing that people do when they lower the early VW’s way too far. If the car is set at the “proper” ride height it’s not an issue.
Either way it’s still cheating, but kind of funny that its cheating to fix a “problem” that makes the car handle worse than if it was at the correct height. I could not even begin to explain (cause I am no suspension engineer) but some thing about the control arms not being level or at least higher in the center of the car.

So I guess my race car looking like a 4x4 is a good thing!!!

Matt Bal

[JLawton]

To join in here late…… and go back a few days ……

From what my source tells me the shortening of the axle is some thing that people do when they lower the early VW’s way too far. If the car is set at the “proper” ride height it’s not an issue.
Matt Bal
[/b]

Even at the proper ride height, the axle can jam the little seal between the axle and the tranny. Ask me how I know........... It tore the seal (it's not really a seal, more like a metal plug??) and pieces got into the CV joint and destroyed it.....

[67ITB]

Come on Jeff,
I thought it broke from the way that car kept running into things..... I see it’s still a crash magnet.

I remember inspecting the exhaust of the car through turn 3 at NHIS. (I cant remember if that was you or Tommy)

Matt Bal