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Thread: ITR PRoposal

  1. #1
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    With a lot of excitement, and some trepidation, I am posting in its entirety (sans spreadsheet of cars) the proposal for the creation of a class (ITR) above ITS in Improved Touring for everyone's comment. This proposal is now with the ITAC for presentation to the CRB shortly (rough outlines of it have already been sent to the CR. Initial feedback from the powers that be (we have a CRB member as part of our working group) have been very positive. No promises, no guarantees in SCCA land (and there shouldn't be) but my personal belief is it is likely we will see ITR running next year, 2008 at the latest.

    Please give this a look and fire away with comments.

    Of course, the "big" debates will come on proposed vehicle weights. We have a spreadsheet developed with those weights and I truly want to relese it but I am very afraid it will turn into the nasty tit for tat fights about car weights, potential and "bias" that I've seen here in the past.

    So how to avoid that? Here's my "grand" idea. We "annoint" one board/forum participant to "represent" their manfucturer in the discussions with the spreadsheet. Maybe say, Tristan Smith or KThomas for Nissan, Marshall or DJ for BMW, Steve E. for Mazda, Scott Giles for Honda, etc. I'll send the sheet to them and they can give constructive comments on issues they see with the weighting/classing of their manufacturer's cars.

    Make sense? Thoughts?

    Here is the written proposal:

    Proposal for Restructuring of Improved Touring’s Faster Classes

    Submitted to the Improved Touring Advisory Committee for consideration

    I. The Past, the Present and the Future

    Improved Touring has thrived as a regional class since its inception, and is the “point of entry” for most new SCCA Club racers. It draws large fields in most Regions, and new cars are being built each year. In many ways, it is the bread and butter of SCCA Club Racing and is critical to the survival of most Regions across the country.

    While IT is healthy now, it is aging. A class above ITS is needed to fill the pipeline of new cars and drivers for the future. An increasing number of requests have been denied from members asking for higher horsepower cars to be classified. A quick look at old SSA cars, T2 cars and T3 cars shows a plentiful supply of cars in race trim searching for a home. This problem needs to be addressed to keep ITS healthy and vibrant.

    II. “ITR”

    Several SCCA members, working with some members of the Improved Touring Advisory Committee, would like to propose a solution to the issue of IT aging. This is the creation of an Improved Touring classification “above” ITS in terms of performance potential, to give those cars from 5 to 20 years old with 190 to 230 stock horsepower (there are many, see attached spreadsheet) a place to race (note that some former SSA, existing SSB, T2 and T3 cars will be eligible). These cars are more available, and in our opinion, more exciting to the generation currently deciding on what racing series to build a car for and participate in. Many of them currently appeal to the “tuner” enthusiast who, at this point, has very few real options in Improved Touring.

    The list of cars that we believe fit the class is extensive, and could grow over the years. It will open the door to many new cars going SCCA racing. We think we may see new cars running SCCA that currently run with Honda Challenge, BMW CCA and Porsche Club of America and other sanctioning bodies.

    We realize there will be resistance. We anticipate those evaluating the merit of this proposal to have the following (legitimate) questions:

    • Will it help or hurt ITS?

    We believe ITR will, in the long run, result in ITS flourishing. It is our perception that very few new ITS cars are being built, and some chassis retired, due to the belief that the BMW E36 325i/is is the only car to have, and that the only other two cars with any real chance of success are the RX7 and Datsun 240Z. ITS should not be a “three-chassis” class, and in our view, over the last three years, the perception that it is has hurt ITS. The BMW E36 325i/is fits perfectly in ITR without an SIR and will bring back the ITS drivers who have left based on any past engine restrictions. We believe that opening up ITS to many competitive chassis will result in an influx of new cars, and new drivers/members, to the class.

    • How will Regions deal with it?

    Member retention and development of new membership is always at the top of the lists for Regional goals. This class kills both birds with one stone. It will bring parity back to ITS while drawing entries from Honda Challenge, NASA, Porsche Club and BMW CCA club racing. Since each Region runs their Club Racing program differently, it would be up to them to slot ITR in where appropriate for car counts in that region. For some regions, running ITR with ITS until numbers dictated a split should be easy. For other regions, ITR may more realistically fit with T1/T2/SPO/SPU. In any event, high car counts should not be an unsolvable problem. Anytime a Region has too many entries, it is a good problem to have.

    • Safety concerns with higher speeds

    Since this will be proposed for 2007, it should fall in line with the re-organization of the cage rules category-wide. We request Touring car-level cages be required.

    • Concerns with making “IT” a more expensive class.

    While some of the cars in this class are more expensive, this is not a reason to limit the current class structure by eliminating cars that can be or are affordable to many in the racing industry. Affordable “used” cars are available from the T1, T2, T3, SSA, SSB and SSC ranks. Additionally, many of the cars listed on the attached spreadsheet can be had for between $3-6k – the price of a decent Prelude, E36 or Integra GSR ITS shell these days. Additionally, ITR may reduce the cost of racing in ITS as many cheap, presently non-competitive chassis, will now have a chance in ITS and may actually be built by members now that they are potentially competitive.


    III. The Ruleset

    We propose no changes to the Improved Touring ruleset to accommodate this class, other than the following:

    1. ITR maximum wheel width is 8.5 inches.

    2. Cage rules should be in line with SCCA Touring classes.

    3. AWD and forced induction cars will not presently be classed in ITR.

    IV. The Proposed ITR Class

    Attached is a spreadsheet with over 30 cars representing our first pass at the cars that should make up in the initial classification for ITR in the ITCS along with anticipated race weights using the ITAC’s classification process. Manufacturers represented include BMW, Porsche, Honda, Acura, Nissan, Audi and others.

    We all stand ready to answer any questions you may have about this proposal. The goal would be an approval from the ITAC / CRB / BoD in time for a 2007 implementation.

    V. Conclusion

    1. ITR will increase the number of cars available to members for building and racing. Furthermore, it will allow Improved Touring to showcase the automotive technology of the last five to 20 years.

    2. ITR will bring peace to E36 325 BMW owners and tuners. They will have a place to run unrestricted, and at a reasonable weight. It is also anticipated that many of the “tuner” crowd will build and race Acuras, Hondas and other imports in ITS, as moving the 325 to ITR dispels the notion that you have to have a 325 to win in ITS. ITR will also be a viable venue for BMWCCA and PCA racers to race cars currently under competitive in their clubs and/or allow them to race at a higher level of preparation.

    3. ITR will increase membership and participation in IT racing. Many of the competitive cars in ITS are presently older than members (and potential members) in their 20s. We hope to make available to them some of the popular models of the last five to 20 years in the hopes that they will build and race these cars.

    4. We do not believe that ITR will unnecessarily “crowd” regional race weekends. ITR appears perfectly suited to run with either Big Bore closed wheel or ITS as it sits. When the class gains momentum, Regions will make space as needed.

    5. ITR will provide a venue for several ex-SSB and T2/3 cars to race, once they are no longer eligible to run in SS or T.

    This class will freshen Improved Touring, draw new members and retain ones that are seeking other outlets. It’s a win-win!
    NC Region
    1980 ITS Triumph TR8

  2. #2
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    I'd like to commend Jeff, Ron, and the rest who did all the really heavy lifting on this project. It's a very good idea. I'd like to head off some potential bird-walks with a couple more comments, if I might:

    ** There's going to be a tendency for the ITR proposal to get jammed up with other, potentially related ideas (e.g., the BP-DP thing or efforts to make IT more appealing to the aftermarket by allowing wings and stuff). Understand that Rule #1 was that ITR be IT for new cars, and nothing else.

    ** There are some cars that were not included on the proposed list. Any that were CLOSE but not SOLIDLY within the parameters were left off for safety's sake, as were some that were just different and difficult to fit into the base weight model. This is a conservative approach, intended to above all avoid inadvertently including a ringer in the list.

    ** Remember: one definition of consensus is that everyone is a little PO'd with the result . What you see represents a true compromise in many respects, among those who were involved in its creation. Nobody had to fall on their sword and nobody got exactly what they wanted, I don't think.

    ** Almost by neccessity, this proposal bumps up against the e36 SIR issue. In fact, it proposes an alternative solution that was not previously available to the CRB, to include those cars in a way that might be more palatable to entrants. However, PLEASE do not plug this proposal up with wanderings about technical issues, history, biases, etc. related directly to the SIR question.

    K

  3. #3
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    Nice Job. The proposal is well thought out and well written. The intent is clear and I agree ITR will attract more racers and even up things in ITS. I was just telling a friend I'm tired of running a 20 year old car and want to run something new that you see on the street. I can't remember the last time I saw an RX7 on the road.

    I hope people don't attack you guys for trying something new.
    BenSpeed
    #33 ITR Porsche 968
    BigSpeed Racing
    2013 ITR Pro IT Champion
    2014 NE Division ITR Champion

  4. #4
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    I hope people don't attack you guys for trying something new.[/b]
    Don't worry Ben, most of the folks involved in this project have been around this board for several years now, and most of us have pretty thick skins.

    I have to echo what Jeff and Kirk have said. This is something that all the people involved compromised a bit on, which, as Kirk mentioned, is a pretty good indication of concensus. Our #1 goal, that were all in agreement with, was that ITR would be 'just another IT class'. That means no extras that none of the other classes get (with the simple nod to the wider wheels). No alternate brakes, no alternate cams, no wings, nothing but what any ITC-ITS car would get.

    Based on some of the un-official 'official' preliminary feedback we've gotten, I'm optimistic that we're on the verge of a new day in IT. Getting something like this off the ground, and implemented w/in a year, is light-speed in normal SCCA-time. I'd like to thank all the members of the project team, and say that it was a pleasure to work with you!

    And maybe, just maybe, when ITR is implemented, we might even be able to retire

  5. #5
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    Im curious, what kind of Audi is in ITR w/o AWD? otherwise looks good
    Evan Darling
    ITR BMW 325is build started...
    SM (underfunded development program)
    SEDIV ITA Champion 2005
    sometimes racing or crewing Koni Sports Car Challenge

  6. #6
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    Front-wheel drive A4 with 190 hp. Not all (in fact, probably not a majority) of the first few years of the A4 were quattro.
    NC Region
    1980 ITS Triumph TR8

  7. #7
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    Does the Integra GSR stay in ITS or ITR with less weight?
    Jeremy Billiel

  8. #8
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    ITS I believe.....
    NC Region
    1980 ITS Triumph TR8

  9. #9
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    Does the Integra GSR stay in ITS or ITR with less weight? [/b]
    ITR in ITR and GS-R in ITS.

    I have a seperate proposal in front of the ITAC to re-examine the 'adders' for FWD cars in ITS.
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

  10. #10
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    Does the Integra GSR stay in ITS or ITR with less weight?
    [/b]
    With all due respect Jeremy, lets try to keep the "What about ME?!?!" to a minimum until at least the new class is either approved or disapproved.
    I can't speak for the whole group, but I know I personally do not want to spend the next couple of months answering questions about what goes where and why and have it all end up being meaningless.
    Lets at least see if its actually going to happen before we go through all of that.

    Deal?

    [email protected]
    #22 ITB Civic DX

  11. #11
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    ** Remember: one definition of consensus is that everyone is a little PO'd with the result . What you see represents a true compromise in many respects, among those who were involved in its creation. Nobody had to fall on their sword and nobody got exactly what they wanted, I don't think.

    [/b]
    Kirk, can I use that first sentence as a quote?

    I think you guys did exactly what is needed, and that consitutes a great job! As one of the people who is (or at least was) involved with BP/DP, I also hope that it doesn't get confused or obfuscated somehow... Hopefully the CRB will see the merits and institute something the club really needs.
    Matt Green

    ITAC Member- 2012-??
    Tire Shaver at TreadZone- www.treadzone.com
    #96 Dodge Shelby Charger ITB- Mine, mine, all mine!
    I was around when they actually improved Improved Touring! (and now I'm trying not to mess it up!)

  12. #12
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    With all due respect Jeremy, lets try to keep the "What about ME?!?!" to a minimum until at least the new class is either approved or disapproved.
    I can't speak for the whole group, but I know I personally do not want to spend the next couple of months answering questions about what goes where and why and have it all end up being meaningless.
    Lets at least see if its actually going to happen before we go through all of that.

    Deal?
    [/b]
    Deal! This was a hot button for many Honda owners so I was just curious. I should have emailed you off line. Thank you all for all the hard work! I fully support this iniative. Should we send in our support to the CRB at some point?

    Jeremy Billiel

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    I fully support this iniative. Should we send in our support to the CRB at some point?[/b]
    Today would be fine. The email addy is [email protected].

  14. #14
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    Of course, the "big" debates will come on proposed vehicle weights. We have a spreadsheet developed with those weights and I truly want to relese it but I am very afraid it will turn into the nasty tit for tat fights about car weights, potential and "bias" that I've seen here in the past.

    So how to avoid that? Here's my "grand" idea. We "annoint" one board/forum participant to "represent" their manfucturer in the discussions with the spreadsheet. Maybe say, Tristan Smith or KThomas for Nissan, Marshall or DJ for BMW, Steve E. for Mazda, Scott Giles for Honda, etc. I'll send the sheet to them and they can give constructive comments on issues they see with the weighting/classing of their manufacturer's cars.

    Make sense? Thoughts?
    [/b]

    Let me preface my thought by saying when I use “you” and “yourself” the comment is aimed at the collective group spearheading the ITR proposal. :huh:

    I understand your desire not to have to deal with every little concern that each post may address. That can result in a tremendous amount of explaining to do. Also, I don&#39;t plan on racing in either ITS or ITR, at least for a while, so I really have no say or care to about what proposal your group has developed. However, I think it is unfortunate and unfair that although you took it upon yourself to start a limited access forum in order to take control of how and what the proposal shall and shall not consist of yet do not want the responsibility of answering to the racing group that will be affected by your decisions and actions. <_<

    At this point do you still want to preside over the whole matter? No one would blame you if you did not. If you do not want to engage in these "big" debates then perhaps it is time for you to step down and allow someone who will take your place. Your part in the proposal may be at an end and the time for someone else with the desire to hammer out the fine details to take over. Think about it. Otherwise, it comes across as if you “can’t be bothered” with the concerns of the proletariat and anyone who is a member of this forum knows that is not the case.

    Perhaps you should release the spreadsheet and allow them to fight amongst themselves without any involvement on your part. Once the dust settles and everyone had had their say we all can rejoice in the knowledge that was shared and no one will feel left out. Or not.

    I think you have done an excellent job and you all must be congratulated in preparing a proposal that still captures the intent of IT while addressing future growth for the benefit of all those engaged in the class. Having done that it may be time for a little more input that from a select group of individuals.


    Tom Sprecher

  15. #15
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    Tom,

    Jeff nor I suggested the closed forum for ITR. I don&#39;t know who started that, but as one of the folks putting the proposal forth with the guidance of the ITAC we were naturally drawn into that forum when the discussion took off. It served the purpose for developing ITR and I think the class draft is what needs to be focused on

    I&#39;ll be happy to answer any questions folks want to direct at ITR, publically here, via personal message, or email. All my info is out there and if folks have questions about specific cars I&#39;ll write what I know about classing it, why, ifs and hows. Granted, the answers might not happen in real time, I&#39;ve a job to keep working at, but I&#39;ll try.

    Best,
    Ron

  16. #16
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    IMO the proposal is not something that is/should be debated at this time. Let’s get the class created first!!! The reason NOT to post the spreadsheet is it WILL create "drama" and or debates. It already did amongst those of us who were working on the proposal. Together we hashed it out and came up with a great group of cars while staying civil (the reason for the "private forums").

    After/If the class is created then you (all of SCCA members) could write and ask for certain classifications and adjustments. "Our" spreadsheet was simply our compromised recommendations to get the class started, they may choose to keep them, change them, eliminate some, or add some. My main focus or idea was/is to support starting a class, not classify certain cars.

    We will hopefully get the class started first... then everyone else can go at it!!!

    Raymond "Just My Opinion" Blethen
    RST Performance Racing
    www.rstperformance.com

  17. #17
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    No one need feel left out, Tom, as I am confident that the CRB will be open to input on the specifics.

    But that&#39;s putting the cart ahead of the horse. The Ad Hoc needs to be large enough to get the diversity of views needed, but small enough to get the work done without bogging down in mountains of input. In the end, the real function of the Ad Hoc is to create a coherent proposal that can be acted on by the BoD, and I think that most of us here can agree that in that regard the ITR Ad Hoc has succeeded, in spades! Once the proposal is approved, it will be up to the CRB, with input from the ITAC, to do the actual car classification, and that&#39;s where the input should be as broad as possible.

    We haven&#39;t created a new IT class in a number of years, and maybe folks have forgotten how much work there is to be done when that happens, which is where persons with detailed marque expertise will be critical. Asking for POC&#39;s isn&#39;t to lock anyone out...it will be to produce the darn VTS sheets!

    And those guys will need lots of help if we are to make this happen in time for the 2007 season. please form a line over to the left...

    ITR Proposal...

  18. #18
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    A large and unfiltered group of people simply can&#39;t get stuff done.
    Sorry, but I have years of managing people for a living (large work groups) and any time you try to let *everyone* be involved it is totally counter productive and typically results in alot of sound and fury with zero results.

    What does work is a diverse but small group that is representative of the larger one.
    I was lucky enough to have been asked to be in that group in this case. But if I hadn&#39;t been, I would understand and wouldn&#39;t feel "left out."

    Don&#39;t believe me?
    Hop on over to another new but popular racing web forum where we can&#39;t manage to agree on the font for decals to promote the forum.
    Its the infuriating process of taking something butt simple and making it mind bogglingly complicated. Thats typically what happens when *everyone* is allowed to throw in their $.02.
    If I had it to do all over again I&#39;d have just picked a decal design myself and apologized for being a tyrant later. Because as things sit, we are farther away now from a decal design than we were when the process started, and it gets worse and more complicated by the day (now everyone has an even BETTER idea, further complicating things).
    See what I mean?

    Our little group has done an excellent job. I know this because we rarely reached total agreement on anything and had quite a few little fights. BUT, it was a small group, so those things could be resolved and we could move forward. This means diverse views and experiences were sorted out and the best possible result was found.
    That (resolution) hardly ever happens when the argument is open to the public.

    I HIGHLY recommend this process for just about anything this web community decides to do in the future that really matters. It just plain works, and we are very likely about to see a new class go from zero to racing in a matter of months.
    I promise you that if we&#39;d allowed the process to be open to the public we wouldn&#39;t even be close to a completed written proposal and first draft of cars in the class at this point. Honest, I promise.

    Scott, who speaks from vast experience.
    [email protected]
    #22 ITB Civic DX

  19. #19
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    Congratulations on your efforts. ITR will be a welcome addition to the IT community. Although I have no plans to run either ITR or ITS I am fully behind your proposal for the class. I believe that it is a win-win solution to the issues of bringing new cars and new members into the club. I am emailing the CRB tonight!
    Bill Stevens - Mbr # 103106
    BnS Racing www.bnsracing.net
    92 ITA Saturn
    83 ITB Shelby Dodge Charger
    Sponsors - Race-Keeper Data/Video Aquisition Systems www.race-keeper.com
    Simpson Performance Products - simpsonraceproducts.com

  20. #20
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    Great, but I have two questions.

    First, May I post the proposal for ITR on my regional web forum?

    Secondly, Can a preliminary list of make model and year for the class be released? If I&#39;m going to try to draw interest in my region for fellow competitors I&#39;d like to have some bait

    If anyone want&#39;s spec&#39;s on my car or any of the Z3&#39;s I&#39;ll be more than happy to help; however, I&#39;m happy to stay out of any contentious debate as I have a horse in this race.

    James
    STU BMW Z3 2.5liter

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