Why no AWD allowed anyway?

[Jiveslug]

Hey all. So, I was sitting here the other day, and began to wonder why SCCA does not allow AWD cars to race on a club level. I would think that with many more AWD cars being built today than ever that it might be a good idea for the BOD to look into making these legal. I have recently seen a couple of AWD cars for sale that would have made great ITS or ITA cars.

Actually, is this something that is being discussed by the ITAC? I would like to know their input on the subject. What does everyone think about letting AWD cars into IT?

Later!

[lateapex911]

What does everyone think about letting AWD cars into IT?

Later!
[/b]

hey Ryan. This has been hashed out and over quite abit here on IT.com. Try a search and see what you find. Give yourself a weekend to read it all! Basically, we on the ITAC are not in favor of it, basically because classing the cars to be equal with the rest of the cars would make them:
A- Competitive in the dry, and complete runaways in the cold, damp, wet, or deluge conditions
or-

B- Competitive in the wet, damp, etc, and complete dogs the rest of the time, an nobody would build them.

Well, thats the jist of it at least.

IF there was a large and documented need, then it might be considered as a seperate class. ITAWD......but I'm just talking off the top of my head, LOL. Right now, the "ITR formation commitee" is finalizing the ITR proposal for submission to the ITAC, which will then submit it to the CRB and hopefully up the line from there. If it succeeds, then things like ITAWD have a much better chance of even being discussed. Right now though, it's not on the plate.

[Ron Earp]

Another aspect of it beyond what Andy mentions is the two headed beast nature of it.

On one head is AWD, on the other is forced induction, or more specifically, turbos - "aggghhh, run away, run away!" the ITAC Knights said!

Yes, there are a handfull of naturally asprirated AWD cars people would race - the Subaru RS 2.5, and uhhh, well, I'm sure there are more.

But the vast majority of the "cool and racable" AWD cars will have forced induction. And that has not been addressed in IT at all and doesn't look like it will be anytime in the near future. Hard to police boost levels and all the other fun things that can be done with compressor wheels, housings, IC cores, etc. I know, been there and done it on a few supercharged and turbo cars, mucho fun! I personally won't bring up SIRs since I don't think they belong in IT, but that is just me.

R

[Z3_GoCar]

Hey Ryan,

Let me tell a little story about what happened during the final race at the last Super School. We had two ITE cars, a highly modifyed Z-06 with Brembo brakes and a well built engine, and a Mitsu Evo, while I'm in an ITB 2002. During the first 5 laps the Evo spins and I manage to pass him, I'm on the tail of an e-36 325. So at the start for the second 5 lap race, I'm on the inside(~9th) the Evo on the outside, and the Z-06 is on pole. The green drops and I'm out pulling both the 325 and the Evo! I'd assume it's partly due to turbo lag. I manage to continue to move up but two laps later I see the yellow flash of the Evo behind and he's gone. When we came in I'd assumed that the Z-06 was just too far and had won. I assumed wrong, the Evo managed to come out of no-where for the win. Now when a car can move up like that on a Z-06 and in 5 laps, that's a car that's outside of the next TWO levels of IT.

Secondly, outside of the turbo Audi coupe there wasn't any candidates untill the Evo/Sti pair in the late '90s. The common theme is they're all great rally cars. There's the rub, any time the weather plays a part, traction is reduced, these cars have an advantage in addition to the turbo's and not everywhere is as dry during the racing season as we are. Kevin uses his rains to hold down the canopy.

So, here's a question when are you going to be ready with your Toy?

James

[lateapex911]

Another aspect of it beyond what Andy mentions is the two headed beast nature of it.

R
[/b]

Uh Ron? Did I miss Andy's post??


But you are right...most AWD cars seem to be turboed, and THAT can get very tricky. Right now it's being done in SS/T, I think, but the jury is out at this point on the effectiveness of the policing. So far so good I think. But thats at the national level, and regionaly is another thing entirely.

The turbo cars cut the number of eligible AWD cars down significantly.

Heck, maybe we should just give in and give them what they want. AWD, turbos, AND run whatever boost you please. With STOCK everything. Kidding....sort of....

[Ron Earp]

Uh Ron? Did I miss Andy's post??

[/b]

Uhhh, no. What you see is my normal tendancy to mix you too up!!! And that I shouldn't post in the bar after a 15 hour flight and two glases of wine. Now see, if you'd use a real user name, like Ivan Itchinanus or even Harry Balzac, then I probably wouldn't mix you up. :P I'll try real hard NOt to do that again.

R

[Bill Miller]

Yep, non-turbo AWD cars are few and far between. For some reason, they seem to go hand in hand. Other than the Scooby 2.5 RS, the only other ones that jump to mind are the B5 platform VW Passat / Audi A4 w/ the 2.8 V6. I know there are some older Audis as well. However, most of the stuff comming out of Japan, it's turbo and AWD.

[joeg]

There are no wagons allowed too or auto trannies...

Rules are rules, I suppose. Don't forget Ford made an AWD Tempo...

[RSTPerformance]

Yep, non-turbo AWD cars are few and far between. For some reason, they seem to go hand in hand. Other than the Scooby 2.5 RS, the only other ones that jump to mind are the B5 platform VW Passat / Audi A4 w/ the 2.8 V6. I know there are some older Audis as well. However, most of the stuff comming out of Japan, it's turbo and AWD.
[/b]

Plenty of earlier Audi's that are NON- Turbo... 2 that come to mind quickly IMO are the;

1980 (?) - 1987 Audi 4000 CS Quattro, same engine as the coupe/coupe GT. ITA car?

1990 - 1993 Audi Coupe Quattro 20V ~ 170 hp stock ITS car?

Thier is also non turbo Audi 5000's and Audi 90's that would fit IMO.

yeah yeah, we have all gone through this a million times!!! lol

Raymond

[lateapex911]

Yep, non-turbo AWD cars are few and far between. For some reason, they seem to go hand in hand. [/b]

It's the biggest sanctioning body of them alll.......the marketplace! To gain back all the performance lost in with the addition of AWD, manufacturers add a turbo. I think that in the begining, they found the cars were considered premium models, as they cost more than any similar model, but they were the slowest with no extra luxury touches. So....in order to justify the higher pricing, they added luxury stuff, which made the cars weigh even more, then added turbos to "fix" that problem, and then some!

Tons of exceptions of course, but in general, the AWD models include some form of performance enhancing hardware to gain back performance lost due to the extra weight they carry.

[veeman]

Just to add a bit to what Raymond was saying...

>>1980 (?) - 1987 Audi 4000 CS Quattro, same engine as the coupe/coupe GT. ITA car?

We only got the 4kq from 1984 to 1987 although there probably was an earlier version in Europe. All had the 5-cyl and I think that most had the 2.2L 10V engine. I think only the coupes had the 2.3 motor in the late 87 models.. I could be wrong.

I think a 4kq would be an interesting idea although in stock NA trim, it'd be way heavy and outclassed.

>>1990 - 1993 Audi Coupe Quattro 20V ~ 170 hp stock ITS car?

Yep... some of the B3 90's had that engine too. The early 80 model quattro's would have been using the 130hp 2.3 liter engine. There are some interesting choices out there for sure... Didn't Ford make an AWD Tempo at some point? Wasn't there an AWD Toyota Tercel? What about the Subaru Justy?

Bottomline is that although I'm a huge Audi fan, the quattro's probably aren't too well suited in NA form to this sort of racing. The weight is an issue and as others have said, unless it rains, they'd be dogs...

Elliott
81 Audi Coupe ITB
86 Audi 4ktq
99.5 Audi 1.8TQ

[joeg]

Actually, Mitsubishi sold a non-turbo version of the AWD VR4 Gallant in 1990 (or thereabouts); Mazda sold an AWD Protoge around the same time (no Turbo). So throw in the Sube, the Audis and, of course the TEMPO, and the collection isgrowing (but is getting very old).

[charrbq]

I think the SCCA remembers what they stumbled into in the Trans Am with the Audi Turbo. They're riding a mean, tight reign on them in T2, but I hope they never let turbos or all wheel drive anywhere near IT. As is, they are a tech inspector's nightmare.

[turboICE]

The E30 iX is an NA AWD as well, I have one in my garage likely destined for rally-x and ice racing since it won't be welcome here. Or even more likely Performance Touring if it ever turns into balanced competitive fields.

But I guess there aren't any cars in IT which have weather or other variable track conditions (including track to track) advantages...

Originally posted by March Fastrack
14. ITS - Classify the Audi A4 Quatro (Phillips). The advisory committee will continue to explore AWD.
15. ITS - Allow AWD vehicles in IT (Haney). The advisory committee will continue to explore AWD.

Though it would seem that Fastrack's definition of explore and mine are different if based on Jakes post.

You know if the ITAC is not in favor of it - at least be honest in the response to requests and say "The advisory committee is not in favor of AWD." because I don't think any exploring is occurring at the time of the issuing of the March Fastrack.

Ryan, my recommendation is that if you have a desire let your desire be known to the club of which you are a member and write it in - maybe they will begin to explore it if there is more expressed interest.

[lateapex911]

The E30 iX is an NA AWD as well, I have one in my garage likely destined for rally-x and ice racing since it won't be welcome here. Or even more likely Performance Touring if it ever turns into balanced competitive fields.

But I guess there aren't any cars in IT which have weather or other variable track conditions (including track to track) advantages...
Though it would seem that Fastrack's definition of explore and mine are different if based on Jakes post.

You know if the ITAC is not in favor of it - at least be honest in the response to requests and say "The advisory committee is not in favor of AWD." because I don't think any exploring is occurring at the time of the issuing of the March Fastrack.

Ryan, my recommendation is that if you have a desire let your desire be known to the club of which you are a member and write it in - maybe they will begin to explore it if there is more expressed interest.
[/b]

My comments were based on my instinct, and what I've heard said on ITAC con calls. I think the ITAC would wrestle heavily, at best, with AWD if it were to be presented with a serious proposal.

However.......we ITAC guys are one step up from the general mebership, but two steps removed form actual decision making. The CRB and the BoD are our bosses. I would read the comments in Fastrack (which aren't always what the ITAC says or recomends) at face value. I would assume it means that AWD is probably being discussed by those further up the line than us.

Does that mean AWD in IT in the future? Or AWD in some other category? Or?? I don't know. For all I know, the CRB could say that we need to class a certain list of cars, and then we have to do just that. Or they could say that we need to create an AWD IT class. But from the ground level, AWD hasn't been presented to the ITAC in any form from top brass.

Your guess is as good as mine in deciphering that Fastrack comment.

As such, I echo the last point of the post...the club can't know what it's members want unless they write and share their thoughts. Drop us a line!

[ERIC THOMPSON]

"i submitted this request to the scca(printed in june fastrack) back in march in order to classify my clubrally spec 1988 celica alltrac turbo in a class of similar cars(evo,sti,eclipse,323 gtx)instead of in ITE. so now looking at the list i dont see my car or any similar cars. can anyone shed some light on this??? please!!!

thanks" (couldnt figure out how to pull a quote from another thread-sorry)

awd cars are allowed in ITE(based on regional approval). as far as awd turbo cars

88-89 celica alltrac
90-93 celica alltrac
87-89 mazda 323 gtx
90-98 eclipse gsx
galant vr4
2002-up wrx
2004-up wrx sti
2004-up evo
97-up audi a4 1.8t-2.0t
2005-up audi a3 2.0t
80's audi coupe quattro
3000gt-dodge stealth(twin turbo)

i'm sure there are a few more i'm forgetting, but the bottom line is i made my request for my car and cars similar. how can the CRB and BOD consider a member request and not consider his car(that brought about the request in the first place). maybe im naieve, but i figured ITR was IT-Rally when i read the fastrack response to my request. now i'm double confused! help!!! please!!!

thanks

p.s. turbo cars can have a governed output by using a restrictor(just like in club/prorally)
and i dont think hypothesized poor handling is reason enough to not start a new class

[turboICE]

Restrictors equal one thing in racing - more money. Where there is already money they work fine and do what they are meant to limit the highest end of performance but an awful lot of money chases everything in the curves below that highest end.

In world rally it works in club racing it is very flawed. I would rather not see them classed then see them restricted. I won't try to field a restricted car on my racing budget.

[ERIC THOMPSON]

on the prolevel i'll agree that they spend a bundle with tuning on a restictor. however i have a 34mm restrictor on my openclass clubrally celica(factory ecu), and besides being a $20 piece of machined aluminum in front of the turbo, it didnt cost the team i bought it(the car) from anything extra to run the car with it(except horsepower). why wish these cars unclassed??? would this class somehow affect your class?? i doubt it!!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Create the class locally if there is enough interest.

I highly doubt turbo cars will be allowed in IT in the near future. The open exhaust rule coupled with the 'open' ECU rule makes for HP outputs that are simply unpredictable AND way to high for the classes.

Add in AWD and you have apples in a clas of oranges and it would take a VERY conservative classing effort to get them to fit - so conservative I would suspect, that nobody would build them because they wouldn't be considered a real option.

[lateapex911]

"i submitted this request to the scca(printed in june fastrack) back in march in order to classify my clubrally spec 1988 celica alltrac turbo in a class of similar cars(evo,sti,eclipse,323 gtx)instead of in ITE. so now looking at the list i dont see my car or any similar cars. can anyone shed some light on this??? please!!!

[/b]

This has been talked about a bunch here. if you haven't looked back, try it and see what you find. Basically, ITE isn't really IT. The ITAC has no say in it, and it's regionally supervised.

ITR is being considered as an extention of ITB, A and S. Anything different from the existing ruleset would make the class NOT an IT class.

So, no, those cars won't be in ITR.

However, your letter to the CRB was registered, and I really don't know, but if they say (per your other post) they are considering the cars for a new class, then maybe it's for a class none of us are aware of.