It's May 1st...How's your SIR???

[JeffYoung]

K, thanks for a thoughtful discussion. Your last point is telling. If the SIR truly did kill the BMW, then I do agree there is an issue, and I think you guys probably know better than anyone if it did.

Jeff

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think the thing that is getting by people is the fact that now that everything has been through the classification process, changes are not to be made.

We just needed a common base to start from using the same measuring stick for everyone. I am not a fan of the SIR and I do think that at 2765 and unrestricted, the E36 will be a great choice for ITR (should it go through). All of the cars proposed for ITR have gone through the process. The cream will rise to the top (I expect a ton of E36's and Integra Type R's from Honda Challenge to try it) and it cold be any car - but the bottom line is that no changes need be made because everyone started from the same baseline.

IT is not about comp adjustments. In 2007, if ITR goes through, you should see no changes to classifications for a long, long time (and I can't think of when that would happen). Again, all the recent activity has been to establish a baseline for us all to move forward on even footing.

AB

[Fastfred92]

The e36 325 is DEAD in ITS.......... R.I.P. e36 325! Lets just move on. SIR is not the solution and not to blame the "process" but unless we KNOW the power part of power to weight we dont have a process. All this myth about 325's and their dyno numbers is murky at best, same goes for RX7 numbers. I understand that the process sets the table and the actual results verify that the process is correct but I also think it is telling that Chet is not running his "public enemy # 1 325 " this year... Good luck to Carlos or DJ or whoever fights on but I think it is clear that the e36 325 will not survive in ITS. Chalk one up to the RX7 guys, they won this one.

Letter supporting ITR..... Sent!

[gpeluso]

The e36 325 is DEAD in ITS.......... R.I.P. e36 325! Lets just move on. SIR is not the solution and not to blame the "process" but unless we KNOW the power part of power to weight we dont have a process. All this myth about 325's and their dyno numbers is murky at best, same goes for RX7 numbers. I understand that the process sets the table and the actual results verify that the process is correct but I also think it is telling that Chet is not running his "public enemy # 1 325 " this year... Good luck to Carlos or DJ or whoever fights on but I think it is clear that the e36 325 will not survive in ITS. Chalk one up to the RX7 guys, they won this one.

Letter supporting ITR..... Sent!
[/b]

FRED,

I'M WITH YOU. THE BIGGER PROBLEM IS THAT IN ITR THE 325 IS NOT GOING TO BE A CONTENDER. A PREPPED M3 WILL BEAT A 325 6 DAYS A WEEK AND TWICE ON SUNDAY. THE 325 WILL HAVE NO WHERE TO GO IN SCCA. ITR IS NO ANSWER FOR THE 325. 325 R.I.P.

GREG

[GKR_17]

I think the thing that is getting by people is the fact that now that everything has been through the classification process, changes are not to be made.
[/b]

Are you willing to bet your ITAC seat on that statement? As you yourself have stated, not every car has been through 'the process'. And then there's the talk of revising the process (FWD), which I believe you also support.

As for the SIR issue, my take is the E36 will be more competitive in ITS with the restrictor, than in ITR at a lower (up 15lbs from last I heard) weight. Sure the E36 will be fast initially in ITR, but I doubt it will be close once the others have had time to complete a good build. My hope now is that we won't be forced to move to ITR, since we've invested a lot to make the best of this situation.

Grafton

[Andy Bettencourt]

Are you willing to bet your ITAC seat on that statement? As you yourself have stated, not every car has been through 'the process'. And then there's the talk of revising the process (FWD), which I believe you also support.

As for the SIR issue, my take is the E36 will be more competitive in ITS with the restrictor, than in ITR at a lower (up 15lbs from last I heard) weight. Sure the E36 will be fast initially in ITR, but I doubt it will be close once the others have had time to complete a good build. My hope now is that we won't be forced to move to ITR, since we've invested a lot to make the best of this situation.

Grafton
[/b]

I am a supporter (in fact, I am the guy who developed a proposal all on my own for ITAC consideration to which I presented to them on a con-call) of continued evaluation of the classes. This is not a car-specific comp-adjustment. It's a category wide look at why FWD in ITS isn't a legitimate choice. I think it's becuase the 'adders' that work so well in A, B and C are mitigated by higher weights and hp levels in ITS. I proposed a new set of adders for FWD cars in ITS. IMHO, the cars make MUCH more sense in my hypothetical model. The higher hp ones would be candidates for ITR (Preludes).

I admit there have been many changes over the past couple of years. The goal is to get a process firmed up, and as 'right' as we can. If the E46 323 is the new top dog in ITS, so be it. She has been through the meatgrinder and she is what she is.

As for betting my ITAC seat - only if YOU take it when I am gone. Then you'll get to see things from all points of veiw.

AB

[Z3_GoCar]

I wouldn't declare the e-36 325i dead just yet. After watching John Norris win on Saturday May 5th, and the growing gap between him and the Rx-7's. The only car that was in front of him was a T-1 Vette, and not long at that as the Vette offed due to lap traffic. In the end John had about 1/2 a lap on the next car. Next weekend will be the Fontana roval, where Hp is king, I suspose this will be the real test. But after watching the results from earlier this month, I'm sure John has a plan and will collect another checkered. So my question is if the 325 still proves to be unbeatable, will the SIR be adjusted down? I'm sure I already know the answer.

James

[GKR_17]

If the E46 323 is the new top dog in ITS, so be it. She has been through the meatgrinder and she is what she is.
[/b]

Since you bring that one up...

First let's take the E36:
189hp x 1.3 x 12.9 = 3170 lbs.
30 lbs of adders to get 3200, though a more quoted final unrestricted weight is 3150.

Now E46:
168hp x 1.3 x 12.9 = 2817 lbs.
Spec weight: 3000 lbs. (adders = 183 lbs.)

I would have expected the adders to be nearly identical for these two cars. Is the VANOS on the exhaust worth over 100 lbs? I assumed the E46 weight (pre process) was set on the high side to avoid controversy similar to that plauging the E36.

At 3000 lbs. I don't expect many E46 front runners. That said, I'm not really pushing to reduce its weight, anyone building one knows what they're getting into. The same applies to those not building E46's also doesn't it?

Grafton

[Andy Bettencourt]

For some reason I think the E46 323 makes 170.

17 * 1.3 = 223.6 * 12.9 = 2850.9

So adders are 150ish.

3150 is the number you see kicked around but isn't an official number. Can we also agree that the effect of adders is mitigated when weight goes up. So, in an effort to be fair, the E36 would receive little-to-no adders at a weight of 3150 - 3200.

I submit that nobody is building E46's because:

Donor's aren't super cheap
Parts are hard to source
It isn't a clear overdog

AB

[e36its]

Where in relation to the air mass sensor did you mount the SIR? I attached mine to the stock rubber elbow that came off the throttle body, then mounted the Air Mass Sensor in front of that and then attached an ITG air filter to the front of the Air Mass Sensor. It's a tight squeeze but it fits.
[/b]

Thanks for the information; that's the same configuration I was planning to use. If I might ask, did you have to make fuel pressure or programming adjustments to make the configuration work? I heard from a very reputable engine builder that stock software will work (down a few horsepower, granted, but run safely) in that configuration but that seems to conflict with what I've heard about dangerously lean conditions requiring substantial extra fuel to achieve safe AFR.

tom
(not an engineer, can't play one on TV, nowhere near a Holiday Inn Express...)

[steve s]

in that conf. if you had a good A/F ratio you will not not have a problem it will be a little lean but not a big problem.with fine tuning you may gain 1 or 2 hp,with perfect A/f ratio.
good luck with the SIR it sucks big time.!!!!!!

[rob22]

Just came back from Sebring, and it does not appear the BMW is quite dead. Carlos Garcia won at least two and I think all three regionals this weekend despite good competiion from Peter Eels and Mark Dana and others. He ran a best of 1.18.4 on the short course, which I believe is about 1/2 second off his normal time.

In the last race of the weekend, he won quite handily. Some folks need to quit wringing their hands and crying and just get to work. Judging by this weekend the car is still very competitive.

"Bosco" Logsdon

[Andy Bettencourt]

Just came back from Sebring, and it does not appear the BMW is quite dead. Carlos Garcia won at least two and I think all three regionals this weekend despite good competiion from Peter Eels and Mark Dana and others. He ran a best of 1.18.4 on the short course, which I believe is about 1/2 second off his normal time.

In the last race of the weekend, he won quite handily. Some folks need to quit wringing their hands and crying and just get to work. Judging by this weekend the car is still very competitive.

"Bosco" Logsdon [/b]

Then maybe we will see some letters that aren't like this one:

"This program has completely killed us in the middle of a season when we are leading by a little but having to fight hard every weekend for a first place finish. Now it just makes it easier for the Mazda's to do what they have always done, DOMINATE. Why the inequality? Does someone in the right spot have authority to make these changes no matter the outcome to please others there are interests in? This is the speculation amongst most if not all the BMW runners and even some of the top ITS guys running other makes that cannot believe the injustice."

Any guesses as to who wrote this one? You will see in the next FT.

[steve s]

why not paint the full picture than just sign you name to the end result ?????
it takes a new set of hoosiers every session to do that plus countless hours of dyno work.
the rx7s out qualified him and was pulling him at least 3 car lenghts coming out of the corners he had a better handling car that weekend . the rx7's had more power butwas not handling great. he did not pass them till their tires went away and started losing control of there car.how many of you out there is will to buy new hoosiers not every weekend but every session just to win .like i've said before when we go to horsepower track like daytona rd. atlanta ,rb road.etc it will be a different story.all the hoosiers in the world cannot give you horsepower only scca comp. board can give you that.again i'm asking for those mysterious dyno testing with the SIR the club did or did not do .i'd really like to see those numbers !!!!!!!!!

[Banzai240]

... he did not pass them till their tires went away and started losing control of there car.[/b]

Dude... tire management for the ENTIRE race is part of the game... It doesn't take much skill to drive the tires out from under a car in the first 15 minutes of a race, and most of us would/could drive faster if making the tires survive the session wasn't a factor...

Apparently you are one of those who would suggest that it would be "better" if the BMW had just been made to weigh 3200lbs... Then EVERYONE's tires could go away and all would "start losing control of their car"...

[rob22]

Steve, the point I was making was, that after less than a month using the SIR, Carlos was up front all weekend. The car was still plenty fast in a straight line and he got the job done. The car can still win races. It may not dominate like before, but isn't that the point. As for Daytona, I don't think there is any restrictor on that Mercedes yet, so does it matter. Obviously, the 325 can still compete well and win. Carlos did his homework. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think he also had the fastest lap of the weekend. If Carlos can get it done, so can others, but not if they push it in the garage and stay home.

Were all the RX7's handling badly? Were you suggesting a restrictor on Carlos' wallet? Joking, Steve.

Bosco

ITS 240sx
EP 240Z
GT1 Monte Carlo

[seckerich]

why not paint the full picture than just sign you name to the end result ?????
it takes a new set of hoosiers every session to do that plus countless hours of dyno work.
the rx7s out qualified him and was pulling him at least 3 car lenghts coming out of the corners he had a better handling car that weekend . the rx7's had more power butwas not handling great. he did not pass them till their tires went away and started losing control of there car.how many of you out there is will to buy new hoosiers not every weekend but every session just to win .like i've said before when we go to horsepower track like daytona rd. atlanta ,rb road.etc it will be a different story.all the hoosiers in the world cannot give you horsepower only scca comp. board can give you that.again i'm asking for those mysterious dyno testing with the SIR the club did or did not do .i'd really like to see those numbers !!!!!!!!!
[/b]

You went out with stickers every race I have ever been in before the SIR--what is different now? You waste stickers to practice? You guys going to Roebling in July? I'm thinking of skipping it but will be there with the wife's new car.

[bimmere36]

Hey guys, I have never written here before but am always reading through. however, this time I had to register and enter my comments.

As to Andy Bettancourts response to Steve's email with a letter that will post in next FT issue, it was me that wrote it. Andy I do not know you but it sounds a little sarcastic. To me it is what I feel. See unless you own a BMW and understand the amount of prep it takes to pull of wins I do not think you should insinuate anything. I am not at all saying I am the only one who preps becausse GOD knows there are alot of other guys that tkae this way too serious like me and fully prep for all events.

When our BMW first hit the track, we were underdogs to the RX7 (please see results at Sebring LOng course January 2005). See I hate second place. I race to win. So, there is NO limit on spending to get my car prepped to the FULLEST LEGAL potential. Countless hours on the dyno just made me buy my own dyno and spend even more time on it (actually not me it's the brain Steve Saney). This car is on the dyno 4 days before EVERY race weekend and when it comes back. Leak downs performed always after every weekend. fresh brakes EVERY Weekend as well as liquids. All this was done to try and obtain the edge and beat the DOMINATING factors in ITS which are the second gens.

We accomplished this and to our demise get penalized for it. Not understanding why because if we are so DOMINANT how are the second gens keeping up with us and making us battle to the end. You might ask who owns these second gens that are so fast, Steve Eckerich and Buzz Marcus. You cannott blink twice with these guys around and this was befroe the SIR. Imagine now?????????????????????????????????????????

I NEVER give up. I LOOOOVE challenges. We are starting the entire process all over again. Back to DYNOING EVERY DAY and alot of testing (this includes rentals of tracks however will not disclose which ones You might say this is only Club Racing but to me it's racing. No expense spared if you want to win.

I really don't like to post and start arguments of any nature but man come on you know the size of this SIR is abnormal!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Hey guys, I have never written here before but am always reading through. however, this time I had to register and enter my comments.

As to Andy Bettancourts response to Steve's email with a letter that will post in next FT issue, it was me that wrote it. Andy I do not know you but it sounds a little sarcastic. To me it is what I feel. See unless you own a BMW and understand the amount of prep it takes to pull of wins I do not think you should insinuate anything. I am not at all saying I am the only one who preps becausse GOD knows there are alot of other guys that tkae this way too serious like me and fully prep for all events.

When our BMW first hit the track, we were underdogs to the RX7 (please see results at Sebring LOng course January 2005). See I hate second place. I race to win. So, there is NO limit on spending to get my car prepped to the FULLEST LEGAL potential. Countless hours on the dyno just made me buy my own dyno and spend even more time on it (actually not me it's the brain Steve Saney). This car is on the dyno 4 days before EVERY race weekend and when it comes back. Leak downs performed always after every weekend. fresh brakes EVERY Weekend as well as liquids. All this was done to try and obtain the edge and beat the DOMINATING factors in ITS which are the second gens.

We accomplished this and to our demise get penalized for it. Not understanding why because if we are so DOMINANT how are the second gens keeping up with us and making us battle to the end. You might ask who owns these second gens that are so fast, Steve Eckerich and Buzz Marcus. You cannott blink twice with these guys around and this was befroe the SIR. Imagine now?????????????????????????????????????????

I NEVER give up. I LOOOOVE challenges. We are starting the entire process all over again. Back to DYNOING EVERY DAY and alot of testing (this includes rentals of tracks however will not disclose which ones You might say this is only Club Racing but to me it's racing. No expense spared if you want to win.

I really don't like to post and start arguments of any nature but man come on you know the size of this SIR is abnormal!!!!!!!!!!!! [/b]

Carlos,

It's good to have you here. I think that the bottom line is that in a letter you write that your program is dead but just one month after the SIR goes into effect, you are winning races in a very competitive area. Some feel that is disingenuous. And are you insinuating that you have had (pre-SIR) to OVER-prep your E36 to win? The data shows the exact opposite.

I applaud your level of effort and prep. If eveyone had the resources to do it like you, we would have tons of useful data.

As far as starting arguements - no way. You and your opinions are welcome and needed. Please weigh in when you see the need - and sign your name!

AB
(Praying for ITR where the E36 can run free while having been through the same process as everyone else)

[steve s]

hey andy i have a hyperthethical question for you.
if carlos decides to get a mazda and we put the same resources behind the project and
we dominate .would that car be put through the meatgrinder because it's an overdog?????
and rob22 if you were there you know marc 's car qual. great but in the race he was running away
from the field then he slowed up and was struggling all weekend long after that .if his car was running
100% he would have won .what do you think?????
and banzai 240 yes i did vote for weight to be added!!!!!!SIR has no place in IT racing.Keep It Simple St-----
that's my philosophy.
ps i think ITR would be a good alternate class for the BMW but at the weight being thrown
around we cannot get the car down to that weight.