It's May 1st...How's your SIR???

[mlytle]

So... Has anyone actually TRIED racing with an SIR on an E36, or are you guys so afraid to have to actually compete with the other cars on equal footing that you have decided just to jump ship based on speculation and here-say???

Just thought I'd ask...

I'm curious as to how the reaction might have differed had we just made the car weight 3200lbs...

Something tells me NOT that much different...
[/b]

nice obnoxious way to ask the question. sheesh.
jumped ship because i don't want to spend thousands of dollars and hours of track time figuring out how to go slower.

[Banzai240]

jumped ship because i don't want to spend thousands of dollars and hours of track time figuring out how to go slower.
[/b]

I wasn't trying to be obnoxious... I was trying to be a dick...


What ever happened to figuring out how to DRIVE the car faster?? The rest of us have been having to do that to overcome the extreme deficit that has existed in ITS for the past 7 or 8 years... You should try it... it's FUN!

To the rest of you who are doing actual testing... Good or bad... do please give us a full report... This type of information is rare, and invaluable in getting things "right"...

Thanks,

[steve s]

we did some testing with the SIR. go to S.E. div. forum . topic , 1.8 miata at roebling .
you'll find my report about the SIR. ithink the post speaks for itself. i asked a question at the end and the post went dead, so i guess the results from scca's testing would not be seen as promised .

[dspillrat]

Hi Guys,
Hearing of the struggles of the E36 drivers trying to find ways to be competitive, my first knee jerk reaction is basically, "BoutTime". Sitting back and listening to many of the 325 guys heading off to greener pastures due to the SIR choking'em down to 158-165 RWHP tells me that you guys were making quite a bit more then the 180-185 RWHP claimed by several drivers.
160 ain't gonna get it....in ITA.....

The SCCA needs to spend some money and do some real research on the effects SIR before implementing anymore diameters....or just make the car weigh what it should have when originally classified....

I enjoy being a perceived underdog on the track with my 30 year old Z, but feel that newer cars should have advantages due to advances in technology.

This weekend at VIR should be interesting to watch....

David Spillman

[Andy Bettencourt]

David,

The ITAC recommended the wieght change and the CRB went with the SIR. Nothing we (the ITAC) can do now - trust me, I have been as loud as I can be.

As far as power numbers...This thing should grab between 18-19whp. If you are running top prep, you will be MORE THAN fine. If you are a mid-prep level driver, then this will hurt you a lot. Some say no more than adding 300lbs to the car at the same prep level but...

How does 2750lbs and no SIR's or FPR's sound? Send in a note of support for ITR!!! Ron and Jeff have done a great job on this concept and it just may gain some steam with the CRB.

AB

[dj10]

As far as power numbers...This thing should grab between 18-19whp. If you are running top prep, you will be MORE THAN fine. If you are a mid-prep level driver, then this will hurt you a lot. Some say no more than adding 300lbs to the car at the same prep level but...

How does 2750lbs and no SIR's or FPR's sound? Send in a note of support for ITR!!! Ron and Jeff have done a great job on this concept and it just may gain some steam with the CRB.

AB [/b]

AB, dyno is one thing, if I run this coming weekend and I find I have to change gear ratios because of what the SIR has done to the power band, it becomes a whole different ballgame. I have come this far, now it's wait and see.

Has anyone submitted the ITR class to the CRB?

[JeffYoung]

DJ, I would suggest that every top prepped car has to change rear end gear rations to be competitive on the various tracks we run in the SEDiv. We all have to do it, why not BMWs??

There has been initial converstations with the powers that be about ITR. I have my fingers crossed that it will come to be, perhaps as early as next year.

2750 with no restrictor sound good? Your competition will be MUCH faster (Z32 300ZX, 968, 4th Gen Supra, etc.).......

[dspillrat]

DJ, I would suggest that every top prepped car has to change rear end gear rations to be competitive on the various tracks we run in the SEDiv. We all have to do it, why not BMWs??

[/b]

Yep....I'm not even in the "top prepped class" ....just in the WOMCAWC. work on my car all weekend class...
Multiple diffs as should all have

3.36 welded...Lowes
3.7 Quaife...VIR, Roebling
3.9 Disc......Road Atlanta
4.3 Quaife...Kershaw..CMP

But seriously....If in fact these cars "E-36" have been rendered impotent w/the SIRs...I to will cry foul.

Course it'll take a few laps on the track to believe this impotent claim.

David Spillman

[dj10]

DJ, I would suggest that every top prepped car has to change rear end gear rations to be competitive on the various tracks we run in the SEDiv. We all have to do it, why not BMWs??

There has been initial converstations with the powers that be about ITR. I have my fingers crossed that it will come to be, perhaps as early as next year.

2750 with no restrictor sound good? Your competition will be MUCH faster (Z32 300ZX, 968, 4th Gen Supra, etc.)....... [/b]

I found my gears were good for Mid O, Watkins Glen, Road Atlanta, Summit Point, Nelson Ledges, Beaver Run & I was counting on them being good for VIr, but I'll see with the SIR.

As for ITR as long as the car are equal hp/wt bring them on! There better be stipulations for comp adjustments because, no way are you guys going to get it right the 1st time. This class better not turn into a another ITE. Just a word of caution .

[Bill Miller]

As for ITR as long as the car are equal hp/wt bring them on! There better be stipulations for comp adjustments because, no way are you guys going to get it right the 1st time. This class better not turn into a another ITE. Just a word of caution .
[/b]

Pretty safe to say that if ITR happens, it will be one more class in the IT category, and will not have any 'special treatment' like comp. adjustments, that the other classes don't have. Figure it'll get wider wheels, but that's about it.

BTW dj, thanks for the vote of confidence.

[mlytle]

I wasn't trying to be obnoxious... I was trying to be a dick...
What ever happened to figuring out how to DRIVE the car faster?? The rest of us have been having to do that to overcome the extreme deficit that has existed in ITS for the past 7 or 8 years... You should try it... it's FUN!



Thanks,
[/b]

yet another moronic comment.

now you are saying bmw drivers haven't been trying to drive faster all along? spare us your drivel.

[dj10]

BTW dj, thanks for the vote of confidence. [/b]

Confidence like Respect is earned.

[seckerich]

Yep....I'm not even in the "top prepped class" ....just in the WOMCAWC. work on my car all weekend class...
Multiple diffs as should all have

3.36 welded...Lowes
3.7 Quaife...VIR, Roebling
3.9 Disc......Road Atlanta
4.3 Quaife...Kershaw..CMP

But seriously....If in fact these cars "E-36" have been rendered impotent w/the SIRs...I to will cry foul.

Course it'll take a few laps on the track to believe this impotent claim.

David Spillman
[/b]

Same boat as you David, I am on gearset #4 in the RX7 this year. Seems like it changes every track to stay up front. Same crying we heard with the flat plate--I will keep an open mind until we see some results.

[Banzai240]

now you are saying bmw drivers haven't been trying to drive faster all along? spare us your drivel.
[/b]

I'm saying that boneyard heads and stock bottom ends ain't going to do it anymore... Not making this up... Not hypothetical... review previous threads on the topic... Which indicates that winning is almost given, even with an 8/10ths effort... Which implies that you don't necessarily have to be the best driver on the block to win in a Pre-Adjusted ITS E36... Now you'll have to step up to the plate...

Anyone whose been watching BMW drivers race KNOWS they are trying to go faster... typcially, they are MANY seconds a lap faster...

[RANT MODE]
And Spare me the woe-is-me sob stories about how unfair the BMW is being treated... I suppose you would have been one of those that would have preferred to weight 3200lbs? Think of all the pieces of the puzzle that would have been affected had that been the course taken... You suppose the "expense" of the SIR is equal to the costs in tires/brakes/wear and tear on your car at 3200lbs?

For those of us who fought to do something to correct the overdog problem WITHOUT making the BMW uncompetitive... your bitching and moaning is a slap in the face and an insult... The CRB and the ITAC, regardless of which method was being supported, have talked about NOTHING less than trying to get the ITS class balanced WITHOUT making anyone uncompetitive (which is redundant, since "balanced" implies that everyone is competitive...)...

I don't give a rats A$$ if you agree with the methods being tried, but to suggest that anything but the best intentions were at hand is childish and uninformed... If the SIR doesn't work the first time out, the CRB has shown it's willingness to make the corrections necessary to get things right...

As people have suggested before, it can be considered a GIFT that the BMW E36 doesn't weigh 3200lbs right now. Accept it, test it, and report back the results with FACTS and DATA... Otherwise, you are no more "right" than we are...

Or... you can run off and leave the SCCA to run with another organization, and essentially admit that you can't make the cut in a heads up situation... Perhaps you aren't quite the driver you think you are??
[/RAND MODE]

[JeffYoung]

David, Steve, what I am learning is that since I don't have a 1:1 5th gear and since I don't have a hp/wt ratio that allows me to "cover" under prepping the car, I too am going to have to run at least two rear end gears. Complicating the matter is the fact that my car doesn't, won't and can't rev much past 5500 rpm. So, I'm long at a TALLLLL ratio for Lowe's and VIR (3.08) and a shorter one for Roebling and CMP (3.45). A 3.9 would be better for CMP but then I'd need three rear ends ..... plus Quaife (only solution for my car other than welding) means about $1500 to $1800 per rear end.

Sheesh! And these guys are complaining about dyno time to tune their SIR! DJ, Marshall, come join the fun!

David, do you mix and match welded vs. Quaife LSDs on the car? Do you have to change the spring rates all around when you do?

DJ, I'll send you the ITR spreadsheet if you send me your e-mail (or did you already?). If you did, my apologies. You are correct, we won't get the hp/wt on all cars right the first time, which is why the PCA adjustment mechanism in the first year that is now allowed by the ITCS is such a huge deal and a big plus that the ITAC got for us. It allows them to fix any errors we make in eyeballing this class from the start (although it is eyeballing using the IT formula). ITR should be fun -- and my comment above about the E36 can be misinterpreted -- I think at 2750 it should be competitive. Its competition will be, as I said, much faster, but what I meant is much faster than what you are dealing with in ITS right now.

In fact, if this goes through, you are going to go from being one of the heaviest cars with the most power and torque to one of the lighest with less power and torque than most. Should be interesting.

Seriously guys, see you at VIR. Hope we get to actually talk about stuff other than the SIR, and actually have some fun.

[seckerich]

David, Steve, what I am learning is that since I don't have a 1:1 5th gear and since I don't have a hp/wt ratio that allows me to "cover" under prepping the car, I too am going to have to run at least two rear end gears. Complicating the matter is the fact that my car doesn't, won't and can't rev much past 5500 rpm. So, I'm long at a TALLLLL ratio for Lowe's and VIR (3.08) and a shorter one for Roebling and CMP (3.45). A 3.9 would be better for CMP but then I'd need three rear ends ..... plus Quaife (only solution for my car other than welding) means about $1500 to $1800 per rear end.

Sheesh! And these guys are complaining about dyno time to tune their SIR! DJ, Marshall, come join the fun!

David, do you mix and match welded vs. Quaife LSDs on the car? Do you have to change the spring rates all around when you do?

DJ, I'll send you the ITR spreadsheet if you send me your e-mail (or did you already?). If you did, my apologies. You are correct, we won't get the hp/wt on all cars right the first time, which is why the PCA adjustment mechanism in the first year that is now allowed by the ITCS is such a huge deal and a big plus that the ITAC got for us. It allows them to fix any errors we make in eyeballing this class from the start (although it is eyeballing using the IT formula). ITR should be fun -- and my comment above about the E36 can be misinterpreted -- I think at 2750 it should be competitive. Its competition will be, as I said, much faster, but what I meant is much faster than what you are dealing with in ITS right now.

In fact, if this goes through, you are going to go from being one of the heaviest cars with the most power and torque to one of the lighest with less power and torque than most. Should be interesting.

Seriously guys, see you at VIR. Hope we get to actually talk about stuff other than the SIR, and actually have some fun.
[/b]

I know you do not run telemetry Jeff, but you have to gear to be fast where it matters most. Drop by at VIR and we can look at the numbers for your car and see what happens. And Quaife is not your only option.

[dj10]

Sheesh! And these guys are complaining about dyno time to tune their SIR! DJ, Marshall, come join the fun!

DJ, I'll send you the ITR spreadsheet if you send me your e-mail (or did you already?). If you did, my apologies. You are correct, we won't get the hp/wt on all cars right the first time, which is why the PCA adjustment mechanism in the first year that is now allowed by the ITCS is such a huge deal and a big plus that the ITAC got for us. It allows them to fix any errors we make in eyeballing this class from the start (although it is eyeballing using the IT formula). ITR should be fun -- and my comment above about the E36 can be misinterpreted -- I think at 2750 it should be competitive. Its competition will be, as I said, much faster, but what I meant is much faster than what you are dealing with in ITS right now.

In fact, if this goes through, you are going to go from being one of the heaviest cars with the most power and torque to one of the lighest with less power and torque than most. Should be interesting.

Seriously guys, see you at VIR. Hope we get to actually talk about stuff other than the SIR, and actually have some fun.

[/b]

PCA adjustment mechanism in the first year that is now allowed by the ITCS is such a huge deal and a big plus that the ITAC got for us.

Are you telling me you never had this before!!?
I have no option but to talk about the SIR, since I'm running one. No matter what I'm planning on having a good time, meeting most of you and learning the track again after 20 +yrs.
I wasn't complaining about dyno time with the SIR, I was just making a statement.

[Bill Miller]

PCA adjustment mechanism in the first year that is now allowed by the ITCS is such a huge deal and a big plus that the ITAC got for us.

Are you telling me you never had this before!!?
I have no option but to talk about the SIR, since I'm running one. No matter what I'm planning on having a good time, meeting most of you and learning the track again after 20 +yrs.
I wasn't complaining about dyno time with the SIR, I was just making a statement.
[/b]

dj,

I'll have to pull out an old ITCS, but I think there was language in there that allowed changes to a car's specifications w/in the first year (i.e. changing the weight). However, I don't think it was used, as it was viewed as a comp. adjustment, which were explicitly prohibited. IIRC, the initial change in the E36 weight from 2850# to 2950# actually fell w/in the allowed adjustment window. Why that wasn't cited, we will probably never know.

[dj10]

dj,

I'll have to pull out an old ITCS, but I think there was language in there that allowed changes to a car's specifications w/in the first year (i.e. changing the weight). However, I don't think it was used, as it was viewed as a comp. adjustment, which were explicitly prohibited. IIRC, the initial change in the E36 weight from 2850# to 2950# actually fell w/in the allowed adjustment window. Why that wasn't cited, we will probably never know. [/b]

Bill, this was a complaint of mine. Since I was new to ITS I didn't know all of this shit was going on with the BMW. I figured that the E36 325 was running for some years everything was ok with it. (I didn't know about this forum then). Little did I know.

[mlytle]

I'm saying that boneyard heads and stock bottom ends ain't going to do it anymore... Not making this up... Not hypothetical... review previous threads on the topic... Which indicates that winning is almost given, even with an 8/10ths effort... Which implies that you don't necessarily have to be the best driver on the block to win in a Pre-Adjusted ITS E36... Now you'll have to step up to the plate...

Anyone whose been watching BMW drivers race KNOWS they are trying to go faster... typcially, they are MANY seconds a lap faster...

[RANT MODE]
And Spare me the woe-is-me sob stories about how unfair the BMW is being treated... I suppose you would have been one of those that would have preferred to weight 3200lbs? Think of all the pieces of the puzzle that would have been affected had that been the course taken... You suppose the "expense" of the SIR is equal to the costs in tires/brakes/wear and tear on your car at 3200lbs?

For those of us who fought to do something to correct the overdog problem WITHOUT making the BMW uncompetitive... your bitching and moaning is a slap in the face and an insult... The CRB and the ITAC, regardless of which method was being supported, have talked about NOTHING less than trying to get the ITS class balanced WITHOUT making anyone uncompetitive (which is redundant, since "balanced" implies that everyone is competitive...)...

I don't give a rats A$$ if you agree with the methods being tried, but to suggest that anything but the best intentions were at hand is childish and uninformed... If the SIR doesn't work the first time out, the CRB has shown it's willingness to make the corrections necessary to get things right...

As people have suggested before, it can be considered a GIFT that the BMW E36 doesn't weigh 3200lbs right now. Accept it, test it, and report back the results with FACTS and DATA... Otherwise, you are no more "right" than we are...

Or... you can run off and leave the SCCA to run with another organization, and essentially admit that you can't make the cut in a heads up situation... Perhaps you aren't quite the driver you think you are??
[/RAND MODE]
[/b]

first - you are answering my emails with the accusation about low prep levels and drivers skill. do you know me or my car? under prepared cars and drivers aren't competitive in the marrs series, no matter what car they drive. i spent a lot of time optimizing my car and me to be competitive, just like the other top runners.

second - what bitching and moaning are you refering too? i made no editorial comment about sirs or any derogatory comments about the itac in the posts you are answering. nowhere did i dispute the decision. nowhere did i mention 3200lbs. nowhere did i say its shouldn't be equalized.

all you are doing is grandstanding and bringing issues long dead back to the light. what the heck for? do just like to insult bmw drivers in the bmw forum? what is your point?

to all, sorry i originally took his bait and responded honestly to his question. i have contributed to his bs and wasted your time having to read it.