It's May 1st...How's your SIR???

[Banzai240]

jumped ship because i don't want to spend thousands of dollars and hours of track time figuring out how to go slower.
[/b]

I wasn't trying to be obnoxious... I was trying to be a dick...


What ever happened to figuring out how to DRIVE the car faster?? The rest of us have been having to do that to overcome the extreme deficit that has existed in ITS for the past 7 or 8 years... You should try it... it's FUN!

To the rest of you who are doing actual testing... Good or bad... do please give us a full report... This type of information is rare, and invaluable in getting things "right"...

Thanks,

[mlytle]

I wasn't trying to be obnoxious... I was trying to be a dick...
What ever happened to figuring out how to DRIVE the car faster?? The rest of us have been having to do that to overcome the extreme deficit that has existed in ITS for the past 7 or 8 years... You should try it... it's FUN!



Thanks,
[/b]

yet another moronic comment.

now you are saying bmw drivers haven't been trying to drive faster all along? spare us your drivel.

[Banzai240]

now you are saying bmw drivers haven't been trying to drive faster all along? spare us your drivel.
[/b]

I'm saying that boneyard heads and stock bottom ends ain't going to do it anymore... Not making this up... Not hypothetical... review previous threads on the topic... Which indicates that winning is almost given, even with an 8/10ths effort... Which implies that you don't necessarily have to be the best driver on the block to win in a Pre-Adjusted ITS E36... Now you'll have to step up to the plate...

Anyone whose been watching BMW drivers race KNOWS they are trying to go faster... typcially, they are MANY seconds a lap faster...

[RANT MODE]
And Spare me the woe-is-me sob stories about how unfair the BMW is being treated... I suppose you would have been one of those that would have preferred to weight 3200lbs? Think of all the pieces of the puzzle that would have been affected had that been the course taken... You suppose the "expense" of the SIR is equal to the costs in tires/brakes/wear and tear on your car at 3200lbs?

For those of us who fought to do something to correct the overdog problem WITHOUT making the BMW uncompetitive... your bitching and moaning is a slap in the face and an insult... The CRB and the ITAC, regardless of which method was being supported, have talked about NOTHING less than trying to get the ITS class balanced WITHOUT making anyone uncompetitive (which is redundant, since "balanced" implies that everyone is competitive...)...

I don't give a rats A$$ if you agree with the methods being tried, but to suggest that anything but the best intentions were at hand is childish and uninformed... If the SIR doesn't work the first time out, the CRB has shown it's willingness to make the corrections necessary to get things right...

As people have suggested before, it can be considered a GIFT that the BMW E36 doesn't weigh 3200lbs right now. Accept it, test it, and report back the results with FACTS and DATA... Otherwise, you are no more "right" than we are...

Or... you can run off and leave the SCCA to run with another organization, and essentially admit that you can't make the cut in a heads up situation... Perhaps you aren't quite the driver you think you are??
[/RAND MODE]

[mlytle]

I'm saying that boneyard heads and stock bottom ends ain't going to do it anymore... Not making this up... Not hypothetical... review previous threads on the topic... Which indicates that winning is almost given, even with an 8/10ths effort... Which implies that you don't necessarily have to be the best driver on the block to win in a Pre-Adjusted ITS E36... Now you'll have to step up to the plate...

Anyone whose been watching BMW drivers race KNOWS they are trying to go faster... typcially, they are MANY seconds a lap faster...

[RANT MODE]
And Spare me the woe-is-me sob stories about how unfair the BMW is being treated... I suppose you would have been one of those that would have preferred to weight 3200lbs? Think of all the pieces of the puzzle that would have been affected had that been the course taken... You suppose the "expense" of the SIR is equal to the costs in tires/brakes/wear and tear on your car at 3200lbs?

For those of us who fought to do something to correct the overdog problem WITHOUT making the BMW uncompetitive... your bitching and moaning is a slap in the face and an insult... The CRB and the ITAC, regardless of which method was being supported, have talked about NOTHING less than trying to get the ITS class balanced WITHOUT making anyone uncompetitive (which is redundant, since "balanced" implies that everyone is competitive...)...

I don't give a rats A$$ if you agree with the methods being tried, but to suggest that anything but the best intentions were at hand is childish and uninformed... If the SIR doesn't work the first time out, the CRB has shown it's willingness to make the corrections necessary to get things right...

As people have suggested before, it can be considered a GIFT that the BMW E36 doesn't weigh 3200lbs right now. Accept it, test it, and report back the results with FACTS and DATA... Otherwise, you are no more "right" than we are...

Or... you can run off and leave the SCCA to run with another organization, and essentially admit that you can't make the cut in a heads up situation... Perhaps you aren't quite the driver you think you are??
[/RAND MODE]
[/b]

first - you are answering my emails with the accusation about low prep levels and drivers skill. do you know me or my car? under prepared cars and drivers aren't competitive in the marrs series, no matter what car they drive. i spent a lot of time optimizing my car and me to be competitive, just like the other top runners.

second - what bitching and moaning are you refering too? i made no editorial comment about sirs or any derogatory comments about the itac in the posts you are answering. nowhere did i dispute the decision. nowhere did i mention 3200lbs. nowhere did i say its shouldn't be equalized.

all you are doing is grandstanding and bringing issues long dead back to the light. what the heck for? do just like to insult bmw drivers in the bmw forum? what is your point?

to all, sorry i originally took his bait and responded honestly to his question. i have contributed to his bs and wasted your time having to read it.

[e36its]

RANT MODE[/b]

Yay. Rant mode. Always a sign of helpful comments to come...

And Spare me the woe-is-me sob stories about how unfair the BMW is being treated...[/b]

I don't like to use unfair, it's one of those terms that seems to provoke rant mode. A caution, though: be careful on the high horse, it's a long way down... I'd take a slightly different twist on the situation. If the SCCA decides that there needs to be some pseudo-formula for classification (a Process if you will) that's fine. But when the decision is made to abandon The Process and go with what's behind door C, I think one must throw away the moral superiority of hiding behind The Process. The Process might've helped to illuminate something that needed to be changed in the classification, but it sure didn't have anything to do with an SIR.

Before: BMW is an outlier. Everyone else is made to fit save the BMW.
After: BMW is an outlier. Everyone else is made to fit save the BMW, which is treated differently. Maybe better, maybe worse... but undeniably differently.

For those of us who fought to do something to correct the overdog problem WITHOUT making the BMW uncompetitive... your bitching and moaning is a slap in the face and an insult... [/b]

It is? Look, I think it's possible to disagree with the outcome of a decision making process without casting aspersions on the lineage of all the people involved. Maybe we'll have to disagree on this one, but I think I can be unhappy that a 7" chunk of aluminum tube was pulled out of someone's hiney without applying a proverbial slap in your face.

I don't give a rats A$$ if you agree with the methods being tried, but to suggest that anything but the best intentions were at hand is childish and uninformed... [/b]

Who ARE you talking to? It's like you're not even talking at Marshall anymore...

Or... you can run off and leave the SCCA to run with another organization, and essentially admit that you can't make the cut in a heads up situation... Perhaps you aren't quite the driver you think you are?? [/b]

Rant mode didn't disappoint... it's been many years since I've seen a well-executed playground "neener-neener" taunt. Nicely done.

Maybe, just maybe, leaving the SCCA is a sign that a decision making process is kinda broken since the powers that be view dissent as "a slap in the face" and "woe is me sob stories", not to mention "bitching and moaning"? Perhaps an organization that would "give a rat's a$$"?

Sheesh.

tom

[Banzai240]

Rant mode didn't disappoint... it's been many years since I've seen a well-executed playground "neener-neener" taunt. Nicely done.
[/b]

Seemed to fit right in with the "I'm going to take my ball and go home..." attitude expressed in the trigger post...

Perhaps an organization that would "give a rat's a$$"?

Sheesh.

tom
[/b]

Exactly WHAT do you want us to give a rat's... about?? Are you suggesting that the SCCA hasn't been trying to do this the RIGHT way?

NO car in the history of IT... NOT even the 1st Gen RX-7, has gotten as much attention... has gotten as much discussion... has had as many angles analyzed... had as MUCH DATA gathered... as the BMW E36 in ITS... The result of which was four choices... 1) Leave the car as it is and watch the rest of ITS dwindle helplessly away due to lack of competitiveness... 2) Try to speed EVERYONE else up... 3) Adjust the classification weight of the car to be more appropriate to it's output... 4) Restrict the output to be more appropriate to the car's current weight...

You tell ME what the right answer would have been, knowing that in IT the ONLY way to speed up ... Lay out exactly how you would have wanted us to CARE more about this issue.... Tell us... Just what is it that you see us NOT caring about?

Yah... I went on an attacking rant... pretty childish looking back on it... but I'm SICK of these attitudes of people who presume that THEY know the answers, and everyone else is an idiot, incapable, or otherwise incompetent...

The boards and committees that are working these issues (CRB, BoD, ACs, etc.) DO give a rip what happens... and no group cares as much as the current ITAC cares... So excuse me if, after all the effort we've put into this class, we, or at least I, take offense to the accusations and mis-informed non-sense that get's thrown our way...

You may consider getting the facts of the situation out into the open a waste of time... I think it's important for people to understand that this organization is run by people who DO CARE, who ARE working for the betterment of the class, etc... And again... I am completely confident that, if WE made the wrong choice on this car, or need to make a correction to get it "right"... it will be done... Until that is proven, however, again... you are no more "right" than we are...

Oh, and one more thing... the Process says the car should weigh approx. 3200lbs... That would put it in target wt/pwr ratio... If you want to keep the car at 2850lbs... the only option is to work the other part of the ratio, which is the "pwr"... That is what the CRB elected to do, and it's a valid, albiet unpopular, way to get to the SAME outcome... which is a wt/pwr ratio that is at the target for ITS... PCAs allow for weight or restrictors... so everything that has been done within the current IT procedures... The PROCESS is used to determine what a car should weight for a given class... Application of PCA adjustments additionally allow for the restrictor... Again... either way accomplishes the same goal.

In my opinion, if the SIR can be made to work as it's intended... then it's the better option for this car, as it keeps the weight very reasonable for the class...

But, believe as you will...

Sorry for "wasting" more of you time...

[e36its]

Seemed to fit right in with the "I'm going to take my ball and go home..." attitude expressed in the trigger post...[/b]

Not sure I follow... there are E36 racers who are not convinced that the SCCA is taking the a proper direction with classifying the car. Isn't it a reasonable course of action to evaluate the venues open to the chassis and choose the one that fits best? Characterizing that as "I'm going to take my ball and go home..." seems to have more to do with how you're reading the statement than Marshall's evaluation of BMWCCA as the best fit for him given the current ruleset.

Exactly WHAT do you want us to give a rat's... about?? Are you suggesting that the SCCA hasn't been trying to do this the RIGHT way?[/b]

I have not suggested that -- if I've given that impression then I apologize, publicly. I have stated that I think SCCA chose the wrong path to address this performance disparity in ITS. There's a difference.

Look, I disagree with the path we have taken with the SIR. I think reasonable well-intentioned people can disagree on the right way to solve a problem... hell, I sometimes disagree with myself on the right way to solve problems. (I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader if I could be characterized as "reasonable".) My disagreement does not imply that you're a bad person or that I'd kick your dog if we crossed paths. What I am is someone who gets irritated when an ITAC member calls my position "bitching and moaning", a "woe is me sob story", and proclaims he does not "give a rat's a$$" about the members of a member driven organization. Strikes me that all that can achieve is to make those of us who were not the puppy-punters even more unhappy with the way things have gone.

It seems like you're reacting to the bad behavior of a few but lobbing verbal grenades into the masses in response. That's just the way it's reading from these cheap seats.

He was a great crew person, friend and above all a great person.[/b]

I think that's a terrific way to eulogize someone. My condolences to his family and friends. There will be plenty of time to talk about the SIR after you've had time to deal with this terrible loss.

tom

[dj10]

Before: BMW is an outlier. Everyone else is made to fit save the BMW.
After: BMW is an outlier. Everyone else is made to fit save the BMW, which is treated differently. Maybe better, maybe worse... but undeniably differently.
tom
[/b]

After: BMW is an outlier. Everyone else is made to fit save the BMW, which is treated differently. Maybe better, maybe worse... but undeniably differently.

Yep, we are. We are the giunea pigs, I'll bet you a dime to a donut we are the 1st of things to come. IMO



You guys need to take a pill & chill.