1.8 Miata at Roebling

[Andy Bettencourt]

Thanks Jeff. Reason # 10042 that you can't use second hand on track data.



AB

[dj10]

Thanks Jeff. Reason # 10042 that you can't use second hand on track data.
AB [/b]

I saw the results on "mylap". I can only hope that the BMW, Steve was speaking (tested the SIR) about was not Carlos Garcia's car! A 1:24 was good enough to run 4th or 5th but no one I know built a car to run 4th or 5th. I can only hope Steve was wrong.

[JeffYoung]

And Houston, we have identified the problem. What entitles EVERY car (BMW included) to be able to win in ITS?

[dj10]

What entitles EVERY car (BMW included) to be able to win in ITS? [/b]

Lets hope it's driver ability and not because ANY car is ham strung.

[Fastfred92]

And Houston, we have identified the problem. What entitles EVERY car (BMW included) to be able to win in ITS?
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Jeff, not to stir the pot but why would you build a car and not think you had a shot at a win??? I dont think anybody thinks the BMW is entitled to win but should not be forced not to win or to never have a chance at a win.......

[JeffYoung]

Guys, I would say that, for the most part, EVERY car in ITS other than a 240z, an E36 325 and a Mazda RX7 is a longshot at best to win. People still build them anyway (including me). So, yes, DJ, there are a lot of "hamstrung" cars out there, 90% in ITS actually.

I don't personally agree with the SIR, but my subjective evaluations -- which are in no way dispostive -- from this weekend are that the FP restricted 325is is just too much for the rest of the field. Fixing that problem is not making sure the BMW can't win. Until SIR cars actually show up and race (and it seems doubtful they will, for some reasons that I agree with and some I don't), this whole idea that the 325 has been "killed" is hypothetical.

Hope that did not sound rude.

[dj10]

Hope that did not sound rude. [/b]

No it didn't sound rude. I'm hoping to make my SIR debut at VIR 5/12, this track has everything for a great test. I actually hope to meet some of you there. My only concern was the statement made by Steve that the BMW's best time was 3 seconds slower than race times when tested with the SIR. I'll be on the dyno tomorrow to test my SIR. Sorry, I didn't mean to start a SIR debate here. That ITS Miata was cooking

[JeffYoung]

DJ, I agree, let's drop the SIR stuff.

I will see you at VIR (probably your rear bumper, from a distance, only....lol). Stop by our paddock and say hello. I'll do the same if I see your car. Always enjoy meeting people from the board.

The ITS Miata at VIR had to be seen to be believed. It was SMOKING fast. But Steve E. and Peter Eels (Wells?) in RX7s were as well. Carlos Garcia in the 325 was a little slower in qual but obviously raced well and won both races. I had a great weekend, for me, so I'm happy too.

See you at VIR. Have you been there? For SARRC/MARRS it gets REAL crowded. If you can get down Thursday night (or up, not sure where you are located), you should try to do so.

[dj10]

See you at VIR. Have you been there? For SARRC/MARRS it gets REAL crowded. If you can get down Thursday night (or up, not sure where you are located), you should try to do so. [/b]

I was at VIR on my 750 Honda the last race before VIR closed. Was that in 1975? Beleive it or not I won both my races that weekend, then they closed the track (hope it wasn't something I did...hehe). So, it's been awhile. I'm coming down from PA so it's about a 8 hr tow. I thought or hope Steve E. was going to save me a spot. I'll be down Thrusday. I'm sure we will see each other, looking forward to it.

[charrbq]

Thanks Jeff. Reason # 10042 that you can't use second hand on track data.



AB
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Can't is a large word, Andy. I agree that one car, one track, and one person's opinion of the packaged performance is highly subjective. But it's the real world. Printed specs and formulas are important, and are constant, but on track performance is where you see the fruits of your labor. It's written that we will only have a place to race, but no guarntee to win. But, as written earlier, why go to the trouble and expense of building a car for a class that you know from the getgo won't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning?
That is, unless you're really cheap, kinky, or like British cars (grin).

[Andy Bettencourt]

And you are right Chris. I just wanted to point out we can't get our panties in a bunch about something we don't know enough about. On-track should be used for trending, not snap judgements.

1.8L Miata guys won't be happy to hear this but I will be submitting my dyno data to the CRB for full review to ensure the car fits the process.

AB

[Fastfred92]

Andy, sounds like maybe that dyno sheet has some info that some of us expected it to have Will some weight adjustment be forthcoming? Will my 318 e36 have a slight chance to stay on the same lap with you now? :P

[steve s]

sorry guys for not responding sooner .without hijacking the thread i'll say we lost about 8 HP at 3500RPMS and gradually increased till at 7000 RPMS we lost about 18 HP.and about 8 ft lb torque.we ran the SIR on friday morning and after lunch we went back to the FP . for the guys who were there they can compare the performance.
if we meet steve e again and we have the SIR we don't stand a chance to beat him[the rx7].just goes to show that a well prepped rx7 can run with the BMW.with the FP.
don't get me wrong now,the BMW needs some restriction but i think 29mm is too small. maybe 31 or 32 mm???? we did not test any other ones too expensive.
i do believe we can loose about 10 hp and be very competetive in the class.or give us back 6-8HP. and it would be fair.
p.s. on a side note those non bmw guys that complain about the junyard motor bmw are really fast and beating them you should do some reserch on the bmw there are a lot of them out there with m3 engines looks almost the same.a friend of mine went to VIR recently and saw a couple car with that engine.running in ITS. not calling anyone a cheater but when you have guys trying to win legally and then some one looks for the easy way out we all suffer.
carlos and myself would not race if we did not think we had a chance to win ,some people do it for fun that's why they build noncompetetive cars. we do it for the glory that piece of wood!!! thank you all for accomodating me and letting me rant and rave.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy, sounds like maybe that dyno sheet has some info that some of us expected it to have Will some weight adjustment be forthcoming? Will my 318 e36 have a slight chance to stay on the same lap with you now? :P [/b]

Actually Fred, I have no dyno info yet. The reason I said that about 'not being happy' is that the sheets will be submitted when I get them so there won't be any time period of 'secret-power' levels.

Greg A. will be fully up to speed as I do stuff.

i'll say we lost about 8 HP at 3500RPMS and gradually increased till at 7000 RPMS we lost about 18 HP.and about 8 ft lb torque.we ran the SIR on friday morning and after lunch we went back to the FP . for the guys who were there they can compare the performance.
[/b]

That is right in line with the CRB testing as outlined by Bob on this site. Take a 205whp version and you are at 187whp with 170+ ft/lbs @ 2850. Still a car to contend with in a BIG way. But like everyone else in the class, you will have to prep to the max to get to the front.

AB

[steve s]

this car is prepped to the max legally. 205 WHP we don't have .let's see or hear what hp number you guys got out of your SIR testing.not what someone said his car was making because he want to sell it!!!!i i agree with you .with what you said about the SIR . it's doing it's job as advertised. but i think your starting HP numbers are off on the high side.and i'm will to bet that the cars you tested gave about 195HP max if it's legal and on a dynojet.
i have not said anything on this issue because i did not have any facts about the SIR and the damage it would do. but we have tested and i know now,and so will all the other drivers out there.

[JeffYoung]

Steve, there are a lot of credible people saying 205 whp is easily achievable and more is possible. You knock 18 whp and 8 ft/lbs off of the 325 at 205 whp and you get 187 whp and way better torque than the RX7. The 7 is a bit lighter, slightly less hp and better brakes. Now THAT would be a great race.

But I still hate SIRs. Would you guys prefer the weight?

[buldogge]

Hey Jeff... The SIR is definitely "working". Does the RX-7's "lack of torque" against its better aero/brakes/lower CG (and remember the BEST example can do 190rwhp) really justify its lower weight spec in the post-SIR era??? Given that the SIR is "doing it's job" (too well) perhaps we should consider changing the E36 weight to 2750#. This would accomplish two things:

1) closer to parity
2) preparation for a possible move to ITR if/when it happens

BTW, even the 2750# is gonna prove hard to get down to unless you are a 150# driver. It may well be a gift weight that is unobtainable (see the other threads re: this same issue w/ MR2/etc.) within the IT ruleset.

Steve, there are a lot of credible people saying 205 whp is easily achievable and more is possible. You knock 18 whp and 8 ft/lbs off of the 325 at 205 whp and you get 187 whp and way better torque than the RX7. The 7 is a bit lighter, slightly less hp and better brakes. Now THAT would be a great race.

But I still hate SIRs. Would you guys prefer the weight?
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[JeffYoung]

Mark, a statement first: I no be likin' SIRs. I think it is the wrong way to go.

But, the debate over what the SIR does to a BMW is academic at this point. No one has built a fully developed version of one. Once they do, and the car cannot compete with an RX7, then maybe it is time to rethink this.

Am I right that the RX7 is presently at 2680? And the BMW at 2850? So that is 190 lbs. Subjectively -- totally subjectively -- I would say yes, the major difference in torque equals the minor differences in CD, lower CG and slightly better brakes (which I don't know is true for sure).

Are you working on the SIR now? I acknowledge the timing stunk. How much time and effort will it take you to adjust your ECU and/or gearing (if needed) compensate? How many dollars? Those are the things I find unfair about the SIR, the timing and the cost of development that were imposed on you guys. With weight, there would be changes, but it would have been different -- some suspension setup, brakes maybe, tires...

On to ITR -- you don't think the car can get down to 2750? My understanding is that the car was moved from 2950 to 2850 because the BMW guys indicated they couldn't get to 2950 without a lot of ballast (back when it was limited to 100 lbs). The guys on the Bimmerforum board seemed to think 2750 was possible. Is there a problem? I'm seriously just asking the question, because it is important, very important, to ITR. One of the 3 main goals of ITR (find a place for higher hp newer cars, give the tuner crowd a place to race and give the E36 an unrestricted home to race) is to fix your problem.

Let me know, and feel free to e-mail me at [email protected] if you want to discuss "off line."

Thanks Mark.

Jeff

[zracre]

Another thread sucked into the SIR debate...I thought this one was about a 1.8 Miata??

[buldogge]

Apologies...I just came into it at the end when this thread link was cross-posted in an SIR discussion.

I forgot no one was interested in what is happening after the implementation. Take you SIR like a man, boy.

Out of here...

ps...Jeff, at 225# I don't think I can make 2750#...a 175# probably can. I think 2800# is my limit (by my calculations)...so be it I guess.

Another thread sucked into the SIR debate...I thought this one was about a 1.8 Miata??
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