The ITR Star Chamber

[seckerich]

Tom --No disrespect intended but you are really missing the boat if you think anything about a front running IT car is anything but high tech. In your world of an ITA RX that might be true and you can have lots of fun with little investment and basic equipment. The first 10 seconds in any car is cheap. The last 2 seconds take tons of time and money--just insert the car--doesn't matter what make. A 35,000 plus IT car is a work of art frame up restoration for the most part. You can do the same yourself with hard work and patience. Kills me to see some of the rats that show up in my tech line.

[Catch22]

Cool?

You want "Cool?"

Well, from a "civilian" point of view a "cheap" GT1 car that runs regionals (and not well) might be cool.

But to most racers, a guy doing 1:49s at Road Atlanta in a sub-100 horsepower ITC car is pretty friggin "cool." How about 1:42s in one of those cars gramma used to get groceries in?
Yeah? Thats cool.

I wouldn't race anything BUT IT. Sprints, enduros, Pro series that pay money...
And bigger fields than pretty much every national class including the formula cars (ESPECIALLY the formula cars).

A few weeks ago at VIR the formula car groups had about 20 cars in them. The IT cars and Spec Miatas were taking the green flag in the ECRs with 100 cars.
Where do I want to race? Not a second thought.

[Geo]

You know, I think it's a red herring to talk about what people spend. First of all, people will spend what they have to spend (and usually then some). Secondly, people who buy a car they had someone build for them are paying top dollar x 10^3.

Cars that cost $50k that you just send a check to have built cost a lot less if you do all the work yourself. IMHO about the only thing that is hard to duplicate DIY is an engine from Sunbelt, Milledge, wt al. The rest, with some time and hard work can be duplicated for significantly less.

My car is getting everything but dipped. If I could write a bigger check, I would have dipped it, but the $700 for dipping could be better spent elsewhere in my case. So I scraped. Instead of buying a brand new harness for a 22 year old car, I removed it and I'm mapping it and replacing all questionable wires. Yes, It's taking me a while, but it damned sure isn't costing me $50k. It's just costing me a lot of time. Of course, I'll know every damned nut and bolt on the bloody car.

[zracre]

A silly expensive GT car is as cool to its owner as a newbie in his IT car...The point of IT is to try to have an affordable competitive class. $50k for an IT car? well im sure some would (and have ) cut that check. Racing a street based class to me is way cooler than racing a tube frame contraption...no matter how fast and fun it may be. My passion is racing touring type cars. I remember watching BTCC races years ago and being hooked...going to a race and seeing street cars with cages...hooked! If someone has an open checkbook, where the money goes depends on the individual...if you want a CSR/DSR/Star Mazda/GT Car, well sign away! If you LOVE BMW's Z cars Hondacuras RX's or any street cars, IT Touring and Production await your checkbook! Its all about what is cool to You!

[tom_sprecher]

Looks like I succeeded in pissing some people off but honestly I didn't mean any disrespect for IT or the people who love it. Hell, I love it, but for what it is supposed to be. I got hooked on IT and RX-7's back in '93 at the inaugural SCCA running at AMS as a first time worker. The cars still had passenger seats back then.

You all bring up excellent points. Turning fast times in an underpowered car - cool. Racing competitively in well subscribed classes - cool. Turning a street car into a race car and loving doing it - cool & priceless. Not keeping things in perspective or knowing were to draw the line - not cool.

A $35-50k IT car isn't cool, it's a bit excessive, but definitely not cool in my opinion . I guess I can't see where that kind of money is going. What are you paying for specifically. Yeah, the last 1% is 99% of the cost, and so on, and I realize you could pay $100/hr for technical expertise, or half that for grunt work, but I just don’t feel IT is the place to do that. For that amount I want to know where’s the beef?

I do all my own work, not only because I’m kind of cheap that way, but generally feel I can do a better job because it’s mine and I know how. It’s kind of a curse. People regularly ask me “how did you know how to do that?” I tell them all you have to do is read about it and just start doing it – it’s that simple. I also lie. I started working on my friends bicycles when I was 10, then as a motorcycle mechanic out of high school, then cars while in engineering school, then industrial machinery, and frame offs, Formula cars (not to brag, but what the hell, 2004 & 2005 SARRC Champs and 2 track records) and now my own car. I am no expert, believe me, but by now I hope I might know a thing or two about using my hands.

I’d love to have someone else prep the tub that’s sitting in my garage but instead I’m going out there today with the dry ice and scraping that fµ€king sound deadening and undercoating. Dipping would be great but 7 Benjamins can be better spent. It’s not that I mind spending money it’s just I try to justify it when I do. I may not agree with a lot of what I see, but I also believe in to each his own.

Also in light of my limited experience and recent on track budget buster I have a real negative attitude toward putting too much effort into something that can (and did) end up being cut up with torch and scrapped. I know that’s the price you pay but ya gotta keep a leash on it.

[JeffYoung]

No truer statement than this:

Tom --No disrespect intended but you are really missing the boat if you think anything about a front running IT car is anything but high tech. In your world of an ITA RX that might be true and you can have lots of fun with little investment and basic equipment. The first 10 seconds in any car is cheap. The last 2 seconds take tons of time and money--just insert the car--doesn't matter what make. A 35,000 plus IT car is a work of art frame up restoration for the most part. You can do the same yourself with hard work and patience. Kills me to see some of the rats that show up in my tech line.
[/b]

I remember thinking I'll bolt a header on my car, some good pads and tires and I'll win baby! Not possible. Well, maybe with a BMW (just kidding!).

Seriously, take a look at Steve's car sometime. Or Ricky T's 99 RX7. Or Steve Parrish's Z car. Like Steve said, the equivalent of a 100 point restoration (you take EVERYTHING apart and put it all back together right, and for the purpose of racing it, beating it and abusing it).

The level of patience, prep, attention to detail and WORK required to run up front in ITS, ITA and IT7 (when the bar is set as high as it is by guys like Rick, and Grover McNair and Don Vincini) will amaze you at first, make you discouraged second, and then third hopefully will motivate you to get your ass to work.....lol.

[Geo]

Tom, just in case there is any confusion, you certainly didn't piss me off. Like you, long before I'd spend $50k on an IT car I'd have a formula car sitting in my shop. I love IT, but for serious money I'd rather race FF or F2000 or FM or........ I now you get the picture. I think we're of the same mind there.

When it comes to spending money on IT, I'm no concerned what a few people with big checkbooks do. I know that a very large portion of those $50k checks is labor AND profit for the shops building the cars and that I could build the same car for a boatload less, perhaps even half. I am doing everything myself on my cars. Partly to save money (yes, I know it costs me time), but also partly because I get great satisfaction of doing so, including scraping the rubberized coating from the wheel wells and the sound deadening from the cockpit. Nasty jobs, but part of the process.

If I were wealthy enough to be able to write the $50k check for a top shelf IT car, I might be inclined to do so. But without question, if I were truly independently wealthy (read, didn't have to work), I'd do it ALL myself again. Some would find that crazy. Me, I find it rewarding.

In the end, however, I think I could build the same caliber car as say Bimmerworld for a fraction of the cost. Strip, dip, reassemble buying all the right parts (mostly direct from BW) and an engine from Sunbelt.

Here's a good question for speculation.....

How much do you think a top flight BW car could be reproduced for, doing all the work yourself (the engine package is purchaed from Sunbelt however)?

[benspeed]

Tom - I agree with you - $50K for an IT is rediculous but guys are dropping that kind of money. The guys who spend that money are either shops making a name for themself or folks who don't wrench but want to win (my category). I was glad I had the reality check before I went forward. Heck, I already put a bunch of $$ in my RX7.

But the ASA/GTA/SPO thing is likely going to pickup some momentum over the next couple of years. Folks have the impression that running a stocker is big bucks. Not so for a ASA/GTA/SPO car. These cars are purpose built racers that can be had for the cost of a quality IT car. Difference being - they're purpose built and don't break or wear out nearly as fast. They're also not 20 years old. The trick part of the cars is the adjustability - the range of adjustment is huge and parts are cheap. I've kept spreadsheets for the last 5 years on running ITS and I'll do the same for SPO. I hope my bet that SPO is cheaper will be correct.

The other nice thing is these ASA/GTA/SPO cars are light - 2,550 without the driver. So you get to drive a car that handles as good as a sports car with more than twice the HP - 430 hp with an LS1 motor. I don't think I'd have bought a cup or busch car because of the weight and the motors are way more expensive. Lighter car = cheaper motor.

I think we'll see more stockers in SCCA over the next couple years. Seems like GTA/SPO is growing down south and I hope we get some takers up North. The pure volume of cars available cannot be ingnored. I won't go for GT1 - just way to expensive on the motor side.

I also agree that the level of competition is the tops in IT. But to run up front - big friggin money - at least to somebody like me who doesn't have much mechanical skill and usually has to pay somebody to do the work. This year I'm hoping for reliability and more time driving than fixing (and some good competition).

Cheers,

[JeffYoung]

George, good question. Let's start a list:

1. Donor --- if you look, you can find a decent 325 for $3-5. Say $4k to be safe.

$4,000

2. Motor -- Sunbelt or like quality, $6-8k. Say $7k

$7,000

3. Cage -- I'm not sure it is reasonable to expect even a decent wrench to do this, so say we farm this out too -- $2k.

$2,000

4. Wheels/tires -- $2000

$2,000

5. Springs, sways, bushings

$600 (cost)

6. Seat

$400

7. Gauges/instrumentation

$400

8. Brake lines, rebuild calipers, rebuild master

$200

9. Diff/LSD

$1500

10. Shocks. A BW car? probably what,$2000 for all four corners?

$2000

11. Air dam/splitter

$500

12. Dyno tune

$1000


That's about $20k right there.

[lateapex911]

here's the flip side to that question. If you are in the position to be paid for your time, which is better....working more hours...or scraping gunk?

Sometimes the $40K cars get sold to a guy who worked hard on his car, but at his business, and for less time than he would have spent in the garage.

[dj10]

If all you guys that work on their own cars would put all that time into their jobs, instead of wasting time on the race cars, they could pay someone else to build their race cars and have tons of money in the bank.

[zracre]

George, good question. Let's start a list:

1. Donor --- if you look, you can find a decent 325 for $3-5. Say $4k to be safe.

$4,000

2. Motor -- Sunbelt or like quality, $6-8k. Say $7k

$7,000

3. Cage -- I'm not sure it is reasonable to expect even a decent wrench to do this, so say we farm this out too -- $2k.

$2,000

4. Wheels/tires -- $2000

$2,000

5. Springs, sways, bushings

$600 (cost)

6. Seat

$400

7. Gauges/instrumentation

$400

8. Brake lines, rebuild calipers, rebuild master

$200

9. Diff/LSD

$1500

10. Shocks. A BW car? probably what,$2000 for all four corners?

$2000

11. Air dam/splitter

$500

12. Dyno tune

$1000
That's about $20k right there.
[/b]

and then there is a Motec, SIR, Belts, Fancy radiator, clutch, tranny rebuild, paint/decals, brake rotors and pads, bushings and sway bars im sure are more...and the suspension and subframe "factory repairs"...not hard to dump silly money in these things. Basically when they build it, you would be better off financially to just buy one depending on what you make per hour...but i like to know what i have thats why i build rather than buy.

[its66]

If all you guys that work on their own cars would put all that time into their jobs, instead of wasting time on the race cars, they could pay someone else to build their race cars and have tons of money in the bank.
[/b]

DJ,

You know that you can't apply financial logic to anything involving racecars. It'll never work.

[DavidM]

George, good question. Let's start a list:

4. Wheels/tires -- $2000

$2,000

5. Springs, sways, bushings

$600 (cost)

6. Seat

$400

7. Gauges/instrumentation

$400

8. Brake lines, rebuild calipers, rebuild master

$200

9. Diff/LSD

$1500

10. Shocks. A BW car? probably what,$2000 for all four corners?

$2000

[/b]

Are we building an 8/10ths or 10/10ths car? If we're going 10/10ths......

$2k for wheels AND tires seems low. I'd say $2-3k just for lightweight race wheels which don't need spacers. And do you want a second set for rain tires?

$400 for gauges and instrumentation? I'd say $1-2k and up if you want a stack system or equivalent.

My guess would be $1k per corner at least for shocks/springs.

I think I just added another $5k. I can see $25k in parts alone on a 10/10ths car.

I find working on my car rewarding, but I only have so much time (still working on that independently wealthy thing). I'd love to build my own race car, but I ain't got the time for it. Nor did I have the $30k+ to have one built. So I bought one somebody else built. That's still got to be the cheapest (and quickest) way to get into this sport.

The idea of a 2600lb stock car with 400+ hp kind of sounds fun, but I'd probably just be doing dounuts the whole time. I get the back end sliding around enough in my 2600lb, 160 hp car. I think one of the other attractions of IT is that it's necessarily as fast as some of the other classes. I've always liked the Radicals in DSR, but I'd probably kill myself if I tried to drive one of those right now. IT is a place where you can learn to race and move on to a faster class if you want. Or you can just stick around and keeping having fun in IT.

David

[Banzai240]

The idea of a 2600lb stock car with 400+ hp kind of sounds fun,...[/b]

At some point, I believe there is a wt/pwr threshold that has an effect on the safety rules mandated for a racing class... I may be wrong, but I think that, at some point, once you exceed a certain threshold, you move out of the realm of IT cage legality and start getting into GT style requirements...

I may be wrong... Just thought I read that somewhere in the past... The numbers you mention here are approaching GT-1 numbers. I'm pretty sure that stricter safety regs would be required at that point...

[Fastfred92]

I get the back end sliding around enough in my 2600lb, 160 hp car.
David
[/b]

Care to explain how you get 160hp in a ITA car ??????????

[Bill Miller]

I imagine he's talking crank HP.

[jhooten]

If all you guys that work on their own cars would put all that time into their jobs, instead of wasting time on the race cars, they could pay someone else to build their race cars and have tons of money in the bank.
[/b]

In the good ole days before the Overtime died that was true. Now I can olny work 80 every two weeks so I have to work on the car to keep me busy and out of trouble.

[x-ring]

You're only ALLOWED to work 80 hours/2 weeks? Cool. I'm 'allowed' to work much more than that, as much as I want.

'Course, they only pay for 80...

Edited to clairify work week.

[jhooten]

You're only ALLOWED to work 80 hours/week? Cool. I'm 'allowed' to work much more than that, as much as I want.

'Course, they only pay for 80...
[/b]

Inspector Till Is still around.

There is a 10 min grace period. If I come in the door at 5 minutes before the start of my shift I have to be out the door by 5 minutes after the shift is over or be subject to a disciplinary action. If there is an energency that requires me to work past the scheduled shift I have to leave early the next day. The CEO trying to show he is cutting the budget and the union thugs fighting the wrong battles again caused this mess.


And it is 80 hours every two week not every week.