The ITR Star Chamber

[charrbq]

The problem with ITC is that no matter what you do, it's dying. No one builds cars off the showroom that will fit. The same was said for the production classes years ago, but they have provisions to put more current tin tops, and limited prep that's breathed life into the classes. We don't, nor do I feel we ever will, nor do I hope we ever will. Right now, most of the races I run, I'm the only or at least one of two C cars racing. I have to tow 8-14 hrs to have a class in SEDIV!

If you aren't building or driving an ITA car, you're peeing in the wind of obsolecence. The technology, the showroom, and the money's there. ITS is full of dinosaurs and large bank accounts. ITR or ITX or whatever is the only logical step. The factories and the competitors are there, but I wonder, given the current technology coming from Europe and Asia, how long they will want to back a 5 yr old car for a regional class.

Let those with large stock portfolios have a place to race their awesome 'mobiles...sure. I'm for it for several reason. Don't kill us old guys with old cars off, and spare me the sympathy shovels of dirt. It may take a lot of vacation time to travel for a race, but I can do that for a lot longer than what it would cost me to build a competitive car in the upper classes. I've heard all the price quotes and seen all the budget sheets. But I deal in real race world $'s. I throw $100 bills at my effort, and it's only ITC. I don't want to tap my 401K just to race.


Sorry, I didn't mean to hi-jack the thread. Just that some of the more recent comments hit a tender nerve. No offense, Evan. You're right.

[JeffYoung]

From the looks of the class makeup spreadsheet, I would say that ITR is going to be a lot like ITS from an economic standpoint. You can build a car and run midpack for $10k. You will need to spend bigger dollars to be up front. In my view, it won't be any more than what is presently spent on an S car though.

[charrbq]

From the looks of the class makeup spreadsheet, I would say that ITR is going to be a lot like ITS from an economic standpoint. You can build a car and run midpack for $10k. You will need to spend bigger dollars to be up front. In my view, it won't be any more than what is presently spent on an S car though.
[/b]

Possibly...but I doubt it will happen often. As mid pack become back marker and more people pony up the big bucks to run up front. Final track position usually computes in exponential dollars. The idea of $50K cars in ITS just hurts my brain when I think of the original concept of IT being a rather low bucks deal. Or at least that was what I was lead to believe.

[orlando_wrx]

IT is a regional class, and as such can be modified on a regional basis. They have ITT (trucks) in atlanta. If the CRB comes to the point where they say ITR should be ITS and class everyone else down, I don't think that will be considered a vaild option by the ITAC. Even still, we have more than a few ITC racers in CFR so I assume it would be safe to say that SEDiv would not do anything to hurt ITC. Assumptions aside, I like the classing structure we currently have, and if it comes down to dropping an existing IT class to add another on top I'll stand behind you Charrbq. I fear you may have misinterpreted my statement about the masses vs. the few, I was speaking of some national classes where they lump a bunch of classes together and still track time gets eaten up by 10-15 car fields. (no offense to all those vocal people in those classes )

[gran racing]

If you add another class and put the real big dogs there, ITS and down will become more pure and maybe have less ultra high dollar guys trying to buy championships...not so good for ITS but good for the class overall. [/b]

Excellent point Evan - I never really thought much about that.

[charrbq]

I understood what you meant, Joel...I agree. When I first starting going to the Runoffs (the good ones, at Atlanta), I was so impressed by the running of one class at a time. Now, for a number of financial reasons, I suspect, you see a National Championship race in which the purity of a class is poluted by a mixture of classes in a group in order to make a show and expedite a time frame.

To protect myself from assault, I have no problem with that at such venues as the ARRC as they run on a different budget than the national office.

Even though I have to drive forever to race my class, and don't get to do it near as often as time will allow, I love racing in the SEDIV and CFR. The groups are huge, my class is super competitive, and a good time is had by all. That's the reason I race ITC. I can afford to go to the races, stay at a decent motel, and eat at nice restuarants each evening without selling a body part or winning the lottery.

[dj10]

From the looks of the class makeup spreadsheet, [/b]

Are we going to see the spreadsheet?

[JeffYoung]

DJ, send me your e-mail and I'll send it to you.

There are a number of $10k ITS cars out there. They just don't run at the front. I run S, and have spent probably $25k over time to run midpack, but got on track for about $10k.

There's no reason you couldn't build a mid-pack Z car or even 325 for $10k if that is what you wanted to do.

I fully agree with Evan that if ITR is implemented, it will become the "premier" IT class and the high dollar efforts will move there. In the short run this hurts S as a lot of guys will move up because they want to be in the "fastest" IT class -- hell, I probably will. In the end though, I think you will see ITS become a lot more like ITA -- a number of great, competitive chassis that can be built for $15 to $20k.

P.S. -- I bet a full tilt ITC or ITB build is pushing $20k these days as well.

[Ron Earp]

That is planned when the proposal is done. Right now the proposal is going through edits and revisions. If it were put out now I think it would simply cause endless contraversy and debate thus slowing the editing process. No since in putting it out in half form, it'd do more harm than good.

Ron

[charrbq]

DJ, send me your e-mail and I'll send it to you.

There are a number of $10k ITS cars out there. They just don't run at the front. I run S, and have spent probably $25k over time to run midpack, but got on track for about $10k.

There's no reason you couldn't build a mid-pack Z car or even 325 for $10k if that is what you wanted to do.

I fully agree with Evan that if ITR is implemented, it will become the "premier" IT class and the high dollar efforts will move there. In the short run this hurts S as a lot of guys will move up because they want to be in the "fastest" IT class -- hell, I probably will. In the end though, I think you will see ITS become a lot more like ITA -- a number of great, competitive chassis that can be built for $15 to $20k.

P.S. -- I bet a full tilt ITC or ITB build is pushing $20k these days as well.
[/b]

If you find a $20k ITC car, then I'll show you money poorly spent. The 5 time ARRC champion's car is for sale for substantially less than that. I know the guy really well, know how and where it was built, and can tell you that $10k would be a stretch. Others might be more, but not much. As for ITB...about the same. There are a lot of $10k ITA and even a few ITS cars out there...they are used to fill out the field for the guys that spend the big bucks to win. It's tough to go by resale prices for race cars when estimating build prices. A general guess would be no more than a 1/3, in most cases.

[JeffYoung]

Chris, I agree with your 1/3 rule and I do see $5-8k C cars which leads me to believe folks spent $15k+ on them. In any event, interested to see how this all shakes out. I know that no one presently invovled in ITR wants to see ITB and/or ITC go away -- delisting or declassing of existing race cars is still a huge taboo. Hopefully, the CRB will see that ITR can fit in a regional weekend without too much problem.

In fact, in my view, the real problem are the couple of open wheel classes that seem to jam up regional weekends. Many times at CMP I've sat and watched a couple of Vs and a couple of F5000s race each other.

[Ron Earp]

If you find a $20k ITC car, then I'll show you money poorly spent. The 5 time ARRC champion's car is for sale for substantially less than that.

It's tough to go by resale prices for race cars when estimating build prices. A general guess would be no more than a 1/3, in most cases.
[/b]

Ok, then you just made Jeff's point. If the ARRC winning C car is for sale at say $6k, and re-sell is about 1/3 of build cost, then that car cost $18k to build. Almost a $20k ITC car.

It cost money to race and basically the faster you go the more money it'll cost you. SM was supposed to be low budget too, and was for awhile, but now the class is developed, and fast (2:18 at VIR - S territory) a top car cost big $$$ to buy or build.

I think all things being equal R >$ S >$ A >$ B > $C

B and C are fine classes, but I bet folks will start moving up when they can of something opens up above S. Maybe B/C could merge? Don't know, don't know a lot about B/C cars.

In fact, in my view, the real problem are the couple of open wheel classes that seem to jam up regional weekends. Many times at CMP I've sat and watched a couple of Vs and a couple of F5000s race each other.
[/b]

That is the damn truth!!!!!! Two guys with open wheels, with their own run group, using up just as much time in a weekend as the entire S/A or B/C run groups. I bet if you took up a padock collection from all the IT and SM racers each would donate $10 to give to the open wheelers to go home. Sorry, bad form, but had to be said. I'd pay $20. They could make money NOT racing. And he wasn't exaggerating - 2 open wheelers in August of 2005 at CMP. There should be a minimum entry level on something like that when it requires an entire run group.
Ron

[Bill Miller]

P.S. -- I bet a full tilt ITC or ITB build is pushing $20k these days as well.[/b]

You're not that far off, if you have someone build it for you. Not that many years ago, an ITB Mk II VW Golf from BSI was ~$20k. A couple of years ago, someone had puchased an ITC Scirocco built by BSI. It was a quick car, but after he ran it for a year, he decided to move up to something faster. Mind you, he didn't have the car built, but bought it off of a BSI customer. He was selling it for $12,500, which he said was a loss for him. Stu and company build beautiful cars, but they're not cheap. And honestly, I don't think anybody that builds a full-blown car is going to be cheap.

[charrbq]

I was wondering if anyone would catch my fox paws on the resale vs. build price. Seriously, my car would sell for about $5k on a good day...or less, but it didn't cost anywhere near $15k to build. The ITC car I referenced cost nowhere near $18k...unless you put a value on testing, wrong parts now worthless, and time involved. No one I know of that builds a car on there own can get any value out of that...sadly.

Pro build guys get the heavy coins, 'cause their reputation is built on it. You pay the big bucks, get a quality race car, and don't have to do anything but add fluids and race. That's where a lot of B & C drivers went...lay down $25k, buy an SM, go racing, and always have a class.

As for the groups of 4 open wheel cars taking up track time...amen. But if they were to look at ITB & C, they might say the same thing. Fortunately, you guys in S & A don't mind using us for mobile chicanes, so we get to blend into the scene.

As a personal note...shared by many I've talked to. Wouldn't it be nice if Atlanta Region would make and promote the ARRC similar to the old IT Festival of the early '90's? That would eliminate the small open wheel groups that seem to have very little subscription or interest. If they then promoted it more as a true IT Championship as it was when National dropped us, they might just have a hit on their hands. I know that there would be complaints from the fast plastic and winged things, but...so. I would allow for the SM's and the Ground Pounders...they're entertaining...sorta.

[orlando_wrx]

Any chance of BMW 330 (3.0L) being classified?
We have 2 E46 chassis and would like an idea of the direction the club is headed with E46 BMW's. Already @ 3000lbs. for a2.5L ITS car, hopefully SIR's aren't comming down the pike.

[Ron Earp]

It is on the list and I hope that it'll fit fine - without SIRs. The recent SIR situation has made me, and a few others working on ITR, doubly cautious to make sure these are not a "tool" in ITR. Sure, it can be available to IT in general, but with proper classing of the cars it is not needed. I truely hope that R exists without SIRs, or, what would be the point of having higher hp cars?

[Geo]

It is on the list and I hope that it'll fit fine - without SIRs. The recent SIR situation has made me, and a few others working on ITR, doubly cautious to make sure these are not a "tool" in ITR. Sure, it can be available to IT in general, but with proper classing of the cars it is not needed. I truely hope that R exists without SIRs, or, what would be the point of having higher hp cars?
[/b]

Amen brother.