The ITR Star Chamber

[Knestis]

This - and any other strand anyone wants to start - should serve as a place to air questions, concerns, input, etc. re: the ITR effort.

Trust me - it ain't all that exciting in the super-secret closed thread. It was created to provide an easily managed space for the discussion of logistical and content issues among the group of folks who are spearheading the proposal0-development process and, at least so far, all of the questions getting discussed there are either (1) repeats of topics already aired elsewhere, or (2) about the strategies thought most likely to make the new class happen.

If you have any questions, ask them and someone with the key to the chamber of secrets will answer them. Promise. Have any ideas? Post 'em. But be warned - there isn't a lot of deep thinking going on here, since the whole idea moves forward from the practical premise that ITR should be just like any other IT class but for cars with more poop.

K

[JeffW]

The Prod guys are discussing the "B" and "D" Production issue. T3 is relatively new on the scene. SSB and SSC may be rolled into Touring (T3 and T4?). Where do retired WC cars go? The development of ITR (and ITQ and...) should take into consideration that there are some race cars that have been orphaned. I think that ALL cars in Touring/SS should be classed in IT and Prod when they become eligible. Some will argue that the classification process is too difficult and that time shouldn't be wasted on a SS car that very few raced. Just because it might not have been a great car in SS doesn't mean it can't be a good car in IT/Prod.

Keep the big picture in mind while working on ITR.

Jeff

[lateapex911]

Jeff, thats a good point, and one that's not lost on us.

One limiting factor is that any IT class above S MUST not leave a gap between itself and S.

And that limits how far "Up" we can go power and performance wise. At some point, the weight you have to throw at a car that has too much power just becomes too much of an issue. We know that ITR will be an uphill battle amongst the suits of the SCCA, so to speak, so we certainly are going to try to make it work, and fit whatever we can. But....we can't get too crazy, or it will be killed on that basis alone.

In some ways you could make a case for ITR AND a class above that, LOL.

WC cars are a big problem for inclusion in the standard IT ranks, because they have lots of mods that are not allowed in IT...and mods that are VERY hard to undo, like seam welded chassis, more than 6 points of attachment on the cage, and so on. ITE seems to be the best place for them at this point, but we'll see.

But in general, I agree that it behooves us to help a car have a progressive path.

[ddewhurst]

***Trust me - it ain't all that exciting in the super-secret closed thread.***

K, I buy 100% what your saying.

D squared

[dj10]

I've looked at 2 cars you plan to put into ITR, the S2000 Honda @ 237 hp and the Porsche 968 @ 236 HP. From what I gathered you thing these car already highly tuned from the factory. I know Porsche and there is more to gain with this car. With headers, exhaust and blueprint & balanced engine I bet your looking @ 260hp +. I thing the same with the Honda. Have you factored this in?

[lateapex911]

I've looked at 2 cars you plan to put into ITR, the S2000 Honda @ 237 hp and the Porsche 968 @ 236 HP. From what I gathered you thing these car already highly tuned from the factory. I know Porsche and there is more to gain with this car. With headers, exhaust and blueprint & balanced engine I bet your looking @ 260hp +. I thing the same with the Honda. Have you factored this in?
[/b]

Of course, things like this are bing debated.

On the Honda, it make 240 hp from 2 LITRES!!!!!! That is EXCEPTIONAL, world leading specific output. I can not agree that there is *much* more to be had there. I t takes a lot of tricky things to get over 120 hp/litre...this car is cose to maximized. Of course, it's being looked at closely.

The porsche is also being scrutinized.

[Z3_GoCar]

This - and any other strand anyone wants to start - should serve as a place to air questions, concerns, input, etc. re: the ITR effort.

Trust me - it ain't all that exciting in the super-secret closed thread. It was created to provide an easily managed space for the discussion of logistical and content issues among the group of folks who are spearheading the proposal0-development process and, at least so far, all of the questions getting discussed there are either (1) repeats of topics already aired elsewhere, or (2) about the strategies thought most likely to make the new class happen.

If you have any questions, ask them and someone with the key to the chamber of secrets will answer them. Promise. Have any ideas? Post 'em. But be warned - there isn't a lot of deep thinking going on here, since the whole idea moves forward from the practical premise that ITR should be just like any other IT class but for cars with more poop.

K
[/b]

Here's what I want to know..... When, next season, two seasons from now. I'd like to have an idea of how long I've got to make my car legal. As it was built for Grand-Am cup I'm sure it's way over preped for current IT rules. Sure I can run ITE untill then but I've got to decied if it's worth the effort to make legal. Or maybe I should look to the reconstituted C-prod class.

James

[Knestis]

I wish that there was a way to know for sure when ITR might happen, if it does. I think it would be unfair to suggest that you should make any spending decisions based on the new class happeing.

IF you pull the trigger on a Prod project, expect to spend a lot more money than you would on an IT-spec machine: That's a safe bet even if ITR is NOT right now.

K

[JeffYoung]

The rough plan is ITR in 2007, but probably not realistic.

DJ, look also at the S2000's torque. 130 or so stock. Ain't much. The 968 has more torque but if the motor is like the 944, there is much else there. If you have data to share on its potential, please do. We are using a slightly lower IT prep adder for the 968. If that is incorrect, we'll change it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I've looked at 2 cars you plan to put into ITR, the S2000 Honda @ 237 hp and the Porsche 968 @ 236 HP. From what I gathered you thing these car already highly tuned from the factory. I know Porsche and there is more to gain with this car. With headers, exhaust and blueprint & balanced engine I bet your looking @ 260hp +. I thing the same with the Honda. Have you factored this in?

[/b]

260hp over 236hp is only a 10% gain. We factor in these items when known. This is why the 236hp 968 and 240hp S2000 seem to fit at 'do-able' weights, while the E36 M3 and RX-8 are probably looking in from the outside as these engines have proven to gain 30+%, resulting in the need for weights nobody would build them.

AB

[Z3_GoCar]

I wish that there was a way to know for sure when ITR might happen, if it does. I think it would be unfair to suggest that you should make any spending decisions based on the new class happeing.

IF you pull the trigger on a Prod project, expect to spend a lot more money than you would on an IT-spec machine: That's a safe bet even if ITR is NOT right now.

K
[/b]

Thanks K,

At the minimum my spending will have to include a new engine, wiring harness, and hood. Maybe Prod will be where former WCC/GA cars go when it's time to retire. I say this having looked at the latest suppliment and noted the language concerning the addition of D and C prod asap.

James

[lateapex911]

Andy, I wonder about the rotary...it's pretty optimized from the factory. I don't think we'll see the same percentage of gains. let's not reject it without a look. Of course, it's not "up" for awhile, and we have no class yet,....

[Knestis]

... At the minimum my spending will have to include a new engine, wiring harness, and hood. [/b]

You are right, of course James. I wasn't talking about the minimum cost of entry, looking instead at a full build. I looked (briefly) at LP Prod as a way back into the game four years ago and stopped immediately when i got to the gearbox rules. I figured about $6K in parts alone for a to-the-max VW or Honda unit, using mostly Group N/Group A rally parts.

Not that it wouldn't be fun. We put a similar kit on the Group 2 Golf rally car that I used to codrive in and it really woke it up, having a high first and small splits between the ratios.

Back to your regularly scheduled ITR discussion, already in progress...

K

[e36its]

I assume (since it kinda touched off the ITR discussion again) that the E36 325 is included in the new class. Is the idea to have the car listed at some weight spec unrestricted in ITR and delist it from ITS or to have the both the ITS restricted spec and the ITR unrestricted spec available to the car?

tom

[zracre]

260hp over 236hp is only a 10% gain. We factor in these items when known. This is why the 236hp 968 and 240hp S2000 seem to fit at 'do-able' weights, while the E36 M3 and RX-8 are probably looking in from the outside as these engines have proven to gain 30+%, resulting in the need for weights nobody would build them.

AB
[/b]

The S2000 and 968 are definitely faster than ITS cars but the HP figures dont seem a whole lot higher...couldnt the system be tweaked to make the S2000 and 968 type cars competitive by making them lighter and the E36 M3 type cars closer to an Ideal weight without bolting too much on it? Also what is the max HP for ITR? A 222 HP Z32 300ZX would be nice...but it weighs ALOT in stock form. So does the Supra. These would make great race cars with major diets. Oh and a Legend Coupe?? MMMMMMMM Go Honda!!!

[Knestis]

... Is the idea to have the [e36 325] listed at some weight spec unrestricted in ITR and delist it from ITS or to have the both the ITS restricted spec and the ITR unrestricted spec available to the car?[/b]

There's been conversation around all of those options, including in terms possibly presenting ITR in part as one resolution to the current predicament faced by Bimmer entrants in S. It would be interesting to know how they might feel about that option - or others.

My PERSONAL sense is that it would be goofy to have the e36 325 listed in both S and R with different specs but it's become a special case...

K

[JeffYoung]

Some quick answers:

1. I have not heard from any E36 drivers who would run with the SIR, so the plan right now is to delist the E36 325 and have it moved to ITR at 2750 unrestricted.

2. Evan, we looked at putting the E36 M3 in ITR but it moves the target rwp too far up. The class is maxed out at the 222 hp Z32, the S2000 (at 240 hp but pretty maxed at that displacement and with little torque) and the 968 (with again little room for improvement). The RX8 and the BMW S52 cars (M Coupe/Roadster/M3) are probably a little too much, if not a lot too much, for the class.

3. The target stock crank hp for the class is in the 190 to 240 range.

Hope that helps.

Jeff

[Fastfred92]

Jeff, I happen to know based on past experience that a M3 (1995) with all IT prep except overbore and Motec puts about 235 hp to the rear and while it must have alot more tq than a S2000, the Honda would certainly weigh less. If my memory serves me correctly the M3 runs in BMWCR stock class at 3300 without driver...

Also you should include the first gen M3, easily within ITR.

[Knestis]

(Salivating over early M3 in IT form.)

K

[JeffYoung]

Fred, Kirk, she is IN. That will be a cool ITR car. Kirk, I know where one is for sale (bad paint, good mechanicals) in Apex....$7500......