Hans or Isaac?

[StephF]

Well, the season is fast approaching again for those of use locked in the frozen northlands. (don't you FL region members start rubbing it in now! ) And in the middle of the scrambling around with the cars, I realized that I still need to get on the stick and get some safety equipment ordered. The older I get, the skinnier my neck vertabrae becomes....at least SOMETHING'S getting skinnier!!
That being said, I also realized that I am still on the fence as to which one works better, is easiest to use, etc.
So, let me ask all of you these questions:
Which device do you use?
Why did you choose that one?
Would you buy the same one again?
Who did you buy it from?
How much was your Isaac or Hans?
Do you know of any retailers offering SCCA members special buys?
Does your device interfere with you in any way once you are strapped in?

For the Isaac users: How extensive are the helmet modifications? I understand that there is a kind of piston that is attached to the helmet? Does that negate the Simpson rating on the helmet?

And finally, are there other devices out there that are comparable to these two, or are these two it?

Thanks for the input. I know there have been various threads that I've browsed through from time to time, but I'd like to gather as much info as I can before making the purchase. After years of wearing a horse collar to 'protect' my neck, now I find that it might exacerbate a whiplash injury. I certainly don't want to get something that's the 'right' thing now only to find it's the wrong thing later.

[planet6racing]

Steph:

I highly recommend searching this site. If the information came over from all the old threads (which I'm reasonably confident it did), there is a ton of information out there.

I'm an Isaac user. I got mine from Gregg Baker. I've also worked with Gregg to develop the adhesive concept for attaching the mounts to the helmet.

Gregg checks in here often. I'm sure he'd be happy to answer any questions about the Isaac device.

<on edit> Which frozen north lands? If you are anywhere near Milwaukee, I&#39;d be happy to bring over my Isaac and my helmet for you to see...

[Knestis]

There are all kinds of considerations that you&#39;ll want to make when you pick a H&N restraint system. Just be sure that you don&#39;t let (sometimes rabid) brand loyalty sway you, and pick the one that&#39;s best for you. The most important decision though has already been made - to actually PICK one.

The Isaac installation was a little fiddly but I accomplished it in a couple of hours - measuring three times and drilling once. Now that the automagic space adhesive option has proved itself, I&#39;d go with that option. I&#39;d also make my "neutral" head position a little more chin-up, to allow for easier mirror checks: I lowered my seat after putting the brackets on my helmet so the mirror is relatively higher now...

People are amazed when I tell them that, once moving, I don&#39;t notice that it&#39;s even there. The mechanical noise of the linkage was kind of interesting for about half of my first out lap - I kept thinking of knights in armor! - but it completely goes away after that.

The quick exit issue is one that people get caught up in. I can tell you from experience that, with our "enduro-spec" push/pull pins on a single tether, busting out of my system after rolling at Rally Tennessee last summer added less than 2 seconds to my egress time - and you HUSTLE to get out of a rally car that&#39;s sitting on-stage, let me tell you.

But don&#39;t make my decision - or anyone else&#39;s - for you. Sit down and figure out what qualities are really important to you, and how your choice might be influenced by the type of car or kind of racing you do, and decide for yourself. I would also caution against making your decision based on price difference (not even knowing what they are now). Amortized over the number of races you&#39;ll be able to use either system, they are cheap.

K

[DavidM]

I went with the Issac. The Hans requires a couple inches of space between your head and the seatback, which I don&#39;t have in my seating position. The Hans would have forced my head into a downward angle.

Installing the Issac was not difficult, but was not simple either. It&#39;s not easy trying to figure out where you install the mounts on your helmet. Try measuring distances on a helmet and you&#39;ll see what I mean. You only get one shot at it so you don&#39;t want to mess it up. I just eventually gave up trying to measure things, put on my racing gear (all of it - this is key as you will sit up a little higher with your suit on) and the helmet, sat in the car and had somebody mark the spots. My mounts wound up in slightly different places on each side of the helmet due to the way I hold my head apparently, but things seem to be correct.

I don&#39;t notice that it&#39;s on once I&#39;m on the track, but it can be a pain if you have it on while trying to drive around in the paddock (if you are going straight from your parking space to the track for instance). I find that trying to look at the passenger side mirror takes a little bit of effort to extend the piston a fraction, but you get used to it.

You get the Issac straight from them. Check their website for prices. They are comparable to a Hans.

David

[lateapex911]

Steph, another Isaac user here.

I can&#39;t add too much that Kirk and David have hit on, but....

Go to Headrestarint.org

It&#39;s a site that is intended to provide as much real world data in one place as possible.

Don&#39;t get *too* hung up in splitting hairs over head loads from one to another...the type of racing we do will not present that many chances to hit walls going 150MPH dead on. Think about how we crash. I can&#39;t remember many crashes that were square or "head on". So, to me, lateral and offset hits are much more likely. Prepare for those.

Setting up the Isaac is pretty easy, even alone. I sat in the car, all strapped in with the system on the straps and the mounts pinned in, and moved my head around as I would driving, then left my head in the middle of that range, and with the shocks in the middle of their travel, I attached the mounts to the helmet in the area I had deliniated with double stick tape. I did study the instructions, and had talked to Gregg Baker (One of the great guys in the racing industry) about the best location on the helmet and had attached some two sided tape on the helmet to define the "boundry" of the acceptable area before climbing in the car. Sounds harder than it was, LOL. Once done, I popped the pins, leaving the mounts on the helmet, prepared the wonder glue, and final epoxied the mounts in place. No drilling (and subsequent &#39;decertification&#39; of the helmet required)

I would be happy to show you sometime at the track.

I chose the Isaac because I thought that the HANS was potentially less effective on lateral offset crashes, which, in my eyes is the most likley to occur, and becuase I saw the real possibility of the "yoke" of the HANS getting caught on the net or the cage when trying to get out of a burning or upside down car. THe Isaac requires me to pull a tether, as Kirk says, to release the pins, and some argue that they will be too "loopy" to remember to do that. So I practice. If you practice for the worst, or the unexpected, it isn&#39;t the worst or the unexpected when it happens. Which is common sense. But I can&#39;t control certain realities of a crash, and that&#39;s where the HANS getting caught on something comes up.

Finally, I like the damper concept a LOT. The HANS requires the straps to be tight for the unit to be effective, which limits head mobility in some cases, not in others. The Isaac seems to have a good degree of freeedom, but when it needs to "tighten up" it does so, automatically, as thats the nature of a damper. Very cool. It does clatter a bit, but then so does my car!

The downside> For various and too long to explain here, the Isaac performs at the very top level, but hasn&#39;t met the certification requirements that the SCCA is proposing to mandate. Which means, that, if passed, they will recommend you get a H&NR, but if you do, it MUST be certified. So Karen will be telling me that my Isaac must be taken off, and I will have to race with nothing. That angers me. So, write a letter!

[planet6racing]

Well, since Jake can&#39;t spell...

http://www.headrestraint.org

:P

[gsbaker]

...And finally, are there other devices out there that are comparable to these two, or are these two it?[/b]

There is a good list here, although they use a broad definition of restraint.

There are no bad ones; they all work to one degree or another.

[lateapex911]

Well, since Jake can&#39;t spell...

http://www.headrestraint.org

:P
[/b]

Nor can I type......

But, oh, nevermind...

[Geo]

OK, I really like Gregg and I like the Isaac just fine (although I&#39;m a HANS owner), but the hard reality here is that until something major changes you&#39;re taking a huge financial risk with something that is not SFI 38.1 certified. To my knowledge that&#39;s only the HANS, the R3, and IIRC the Hutchins II (although I&#39;m not 100% certain about that one).

There is proposed wording in front of the BOD to require any H&N restraint that is in use to comply 100% with 38.1. Despite how well the Isaac works in practice, it&#39;s not 38.1 compliant.

Much as I absolutely HATE SFI and I&#39;m not fond of 38.1 I see more and more requirements of 38.1 compliance in the future, not less.

[944-spec#94]

I have always like the ISAAC.
I thought it was a great design idea and a better implementation that the HANS. Plus I love how Gregg has taken the time and effort to inform all of us at the "grassroots" level of road racing.

I do however hold great respect for the HANS device. I always have considered it safe and it was always in the running as compared to the ISAAC. All the other seemed like they would be ineffective by design.


So given that I have been watching the creation of the SFI38.1 spec. I saw the writing on the wall last November and ordered something. My reasoning was that I could not longer afford to run without a head and neck device. I really needed to use one as I had been "thinking about it" for a year now. So it was a HANS device for me as I could see that I needed an SFI 38.1 approved device to ensure it would not turn into a $900 kiddy toy.

Due to the side impact issues I added in a $75 dollar side net in to the equation. I feel quite comfortable with my set-up.

- Yes I drilled the helmet
- Yes I had to mess with my harness mounting (actually lowered my seat and added lock rings to the harness bar)
- Yes I had to re-learn how to get in and out of the car
- Yes it was uncomfortable at first.

All those stories you hear are true. However after 3 track days I forgot about the HANS it became just another part of my gear. One day it just may even save my life. I just hope I get old and gray long before that happens.

[Doc Bro]

I just got my ISAAC 1 day after the SCCA&#39;s SFI thing.....really disappointing. I&#39;m not sure what to do, it is a pricy investment. The bottom line in my mind. Run an ISAAC if you want to live, run a HANS if you want a H&N that will always pass the political process and provide "some" level of protection. I&#39;m debating getting a HANS as well just because something is better than nothing and until we as a society reel in the trial lawyers it is what it is..............

Use the ISAAC when they&#39;re not watching (ie test days, EMRA or whenever) use the HANS when they&#39;re (ie false grid, SCCA etc.) putting the pressure on.....expensive but cheaper than most insurance plans deductible for a lengthy hospital stay.

my .02

R

[dave parker]

Steph
I used to sell HANS.
I wear one.
My wife Terri wears one.
I have crash tested one.



It is the best at what it does.

End of story.

If you need further input PM me.

cheers
"dangerous" dave parker

[gsbaker]

...until we as a society reel in the trial lawyers it is what it is...[/b]

This goes to the irony of the situation. Someone on the CRB is considering this action because they apparently believe it will reduce the Club&#39;s liability. The fact is that it vastly increases the liability.

Juries don&#39;t know the difference between the SFI and the FBI. When they learn that a driver was injured when denied a safety product because the Club was trying to cover its rear, they will land on the SCCA like a ton of bricks.

[buldogge]

Nonetheless Gregg...for those of us that have INVESTED in the ISAAC...is there a SOLUTION being worked on...???

This goes to the irony of the situation. Someone on the CRB is considering this action because they apparently believe it will reduce the Club&#39;s liability. The fact is that it vastly increases the liability.

Juries don&#39;t know the difference between the SFI and the FBI. When they learn that a driver was injured when denied a safety product because the Club was trying to cover its rear, they will land on the SCCA like a ton of bricks.
[/b]

[gsbaker]

Yes, there is. More than one, in fact.

[erlrich]

I just got my ISAAC 1 day after the SCCA&#39;s SFI thing.....really disappointing. I&#39;m not sure what to do, it is a pricy investment. The bottom line in my mind. Run an ISAAC if you want to live, run a HANS if you want a H&N that will always pass the political process and provide "some" level of protection. I&#39;m debating getting a HANS as well just because something is better than nothing and until we as a society reel in the trial lawyers it is what it is..............

Use the ISAAC when they&#39;re not watching (ie test days, EMRA or whenever) use the HANS when they&#39;re (ie false grid, SCCA etc.) putting the pressure on.....expensive but cheaper than most insurance plans deductible for a lengthy hospital stay.

my .02

R
[/b]

Rob, keep in mind the SCCA&#39;s rule is only proposed at this time; our ISAACs are still good to go for now. As far as I&#39;m concerned, even if the rule goes through as currently proposed I won&#39;t stop using my ISAAC, since at that time mine will no longer be a head and neck restraint, it will then become a "helmet strut"

[lateapex911]

...I won&#39;t stop using my ISAAC, since at that time mine will no longer be a head and neck restraint, it will then become a "helmet strut"
[/b]

I hope your lawyer is in the right seat when you roll thru grid and they pull you to the side to remove it...

[erlrich]

I hope your lawyer is in the right seat when you roll thru grid and they pull you to the side to remove it...
[/b]

Jake, it is my sincerest hope that before it comes to that the club&#39;s lawyers will wake up and realize the idiocy of telling racers to take off a piece of safety equipment that could save their lives.

Oh, and to the original question - I guess it&#39;s obvious which one I chose. I was fortunate enough to have won mine through one of Gregg&#39;s contests, so I am obviously a little biased; but I can say in all honesty that after dealing with Gregg and his group, and having used the device for numerous sessions I wouldn&#39;t think of using anything else. IMHO, it is the best at what it does. Period.

[lateapex911]

Agreed. I am particualry peeved as I now harbor guilt feelings as I too won one in one of his contests, and sold it, brand new, at a significant discount, to a friend. I hope he gets out on the track a billion times this year to get some mileage on it!

Still, I feel bad.

[Daryl DeArman]

I don&#39;t check in here as often as I used to, but I am glad I did.

I use an ISAAC. I love it. The install was fairly simple. When I get a new helmet I will go with the bonded mounts.

I have used it in an IT Enduro car, A EProd car, A Group2 Rally car, A Formula Ford, A Formula Vee, a Ferrari 360 Modena Challenge car and the Celicas from the LBGP pro/celebrity race. If I had decided to be a HANS wearer I would have required at least 3 different devices.

To determine the best position for you while in the car try some double stick 3M-type foam squares. Once you get it figured out you then can mount it for real.

I chose the ISAAC because I loved the concept of controlling velocity versus limiting position. (Bungee jump with a bungee or bungee jump with a rope? Both will keep you from hitting the ground---one will start to reduce your speed much sooner and therefore be less strenous when you bottom out) I believe that for the device to work as we want it to everything doesn&#39;t need to be as perfect as it does with some other devices (belts properly mounted, correct model, tethers properly tensioned, angle of impact, etc.).

Regarding the SFI thing. I really hope Gregg and Co. are trying with all their mite to fight the good fight. IF it comes down to it and SCCA mandates the use of a SFI 38.1/FIA device I will be racing elsewhere. IF the day comes that all racing organizations adopt the SFI/FIA rule I guarantee you I wont be wearing a HANS--on principal alone.