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Thread: The use of SIRs in IT

  1. #21
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    I may have been hyperbolic about the CRB dumping on you guys but my opinion on the SIR decision being driven by politics remains unshaken.

    I don't know what process you all used to come up with those two options but there was a motivation somewhere for the CRB to choose the one that is frankly outside of the established framework for classification and specification, by defining the e36 as a de facto "most extreme situation," and imposing an air restrictor on them before the minimum weight was ever raised. The simplest remedy for maintaining equity, prescribed by the ITCS in a section less than two years old, was not applied in this case. There is a reason and by definition, it is driven by other considerations of governance - the definition of politics applied in the business of examining policy.

    Put differently, if something looks goofy, there's usually a reason for it. I tend to assume that decisions like this don't get made by accident, so there MUST be some motivation to tackle this issue differently than ANY other classification question in the category. That motivation comes out of the CRB's desire to achieve some end. That is politics.

    If your response is the result of thinking that I was using the contemporary, derisive definition of "politics" - of smoke-filled rooms, indian casinos, golf trips, and (in NC) PAC checks with the payee's name left blank - you are making an inference that I didn't intend.

    Why DID the CRB choose the SIR option? FInd the real answer to that question and we know the motivation, which should illuminate the desired policy outcome. It would be nice for the ITAC'ers to know what that intention was, because they have now (had dumped on them, inherited, joyfully undertaken, whatever) the detail responsibility for activating that policy. What if the testing yields findings that are contrary to the first principals, desired outcome, or hoped-for externalities of the CRB's policy decision? I'm afraid that you're going to be left flapping in the wind.

    If nothing else, this isn't such an auspicious step for the PCA concept, that was REALLY looking rosy for while here.

    K

    EDIT - It SHOULD go without saying but since I may have been misconstrued earlier, I am most certainly NOT suggesting that any of the ITAC members are guilty of any sneaky dealing here. I have a ton of faith in them and their hard work, which is frankly why I'm kind of pissed off about this most recent development.

  2. #22
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    In no particular order...

    I disagree with Bills ascertation that the use of the SIR was not in keeping with the outlines for it's implementation. The E36 is, as has been discussed, a car that is really too much for the class it lives in. Adding it to the class was a great idea......except......it exceeded it's percieved potential. Adding a restrictor is perfectly fine, and who's to say that it wasn't observed??? I will admit that I would prefer not to use an SIR, but for THIS car, in THIS class, as THIS point in time, it is a very reasonable alternative.

    Personally, it would be MUCH easier, for me, to just slap weight on it, based on the potential power and torque, and be done with it. I wouldn't have to drive 4 hours for each test session, lose a workday (and the money associated with that,) and neither would the other members of the ITAC and the CRB. When all is said and done, I imagine hours and hours of dyno time will be burned. If that's what it takes to acheive the results needed, and the confidence needed, fine. If the end result isn't what the CRB or the ITAC likes, then other options would, I imagine, be considered. That's the key here, it isn't about research for another class, it's about solving a unique problem in ITS in the best way.

    I WOULD prefer to move it up a class...ooops! There is no class up there. Gotta work on that.

    Having SCCA pay to pull guys motors out of their car and testing them on one dyno is a great idea. How can we do it?

    Lets not drag the financial trail of club income going to Pro into this. If you don't like it, do some research, write your letters, start a movement and change it. It IS your club. But that's not relevant here.

    Finally, the CRB hasn't "dumped this in the ITACs lap". Much of the testing will be done on a CRB members private dyno, at his expense. As far as I am concerned, the CRB is diggin in and doing the work. I haven't asked anyone on the CRB the specific question of whether the SIR was chosen as a test bed for GT use, but I have discussed the reasons for it's choice ...at length....and they were all specific to the situation at hand.
    Jake Gulick


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  3. #23
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    So Jake, you admit that the E36 got special treatment, that no other car in IT got? And I'm sorry, but I hardly consider a radical departure from the way things are done for other cars, to accomodate one car, so as to hopefully minimize the agida (sp?) of the drivers of said car, "very reasonable". As far as your contention that the SIR for the E36 was in keeping w/ its guidelines for implementation, how do you justify that when the spec weight was not set, per the process outlined in the ITCS? The way I read that rule, a restrictor is to be applied only when the original process weight is deemed incorrect, and the other PCA options (weight or reclassification) are either not an option (no class to move up to), or for some reason, set aside.

    I know you stronly believe that the tire response goes non-linear for cars weighing near what the process weight for the E36 is, and I can accept that belief. Where that justification for an SIR instead of weight fails, is when we're told that the Supra, at 230# North of the process weight for the E36, was looked at and felt to be ok at its weight. The fact that one car was given a weight break and an SIR, and another similar one wasn't, only confirms Kirk's position that the SIR for the E36 was a politically-motivated choice.

  4. #24
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    So Jake, you admit that the E36 got special treatment, that no other car in IT got? And I'm sorry, but I hardly consider a radical departure from the way things are done for other cars, to accomodate one car, so as to hopefully minimize the agida (sp?) of the drivers of said car, "very reasonable". As far as your contention that the SIR for the E36 was in keeping w/ its guidelines for implementation, how do you justify that when the spec weight was not set, per the process outlined in the ITCS? The way I read that rule, a restrictor is to be applied only when the original process weight is deemed incorrect, and the other PCA options (weight or reclassification) are either not an option (no class to move up to), or for some reason, set aside.

    I know you stronly believe that the tire response goes non-linear for cars weighing near what the process weight for the E36 is, and I can accept that belief. Where that justification for an SIR instead of weight fails, is when we're told that the Supra, at 230# North of the process weight for the E36, was looked at and felt to be ok at its weight. The fact that one car was given a weight break and an SIR, and another similar one wasn't, only confirms Kirk's position that the SIR for the E36 was a politically-motivated choice.
    [/b]

    Bill, you argument is getting very old we all know were you stand, now how about giving it a rest. You are just flat wearing people out dude. In a perfect world the supra that nobody wants to race anyway will get the SIR just to make you happy. I believe it should get the SIR and drop some weight. But lets get through the first one before we try to take all of them at one shot.
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  5. #25
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    Joe, maybe you should just skip on by my posts then. I can tell you this much, your attempts to 'shout me down' are a waste of your time.

  6. #26
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    So Jake, you admit that the E36 got special treatment, that no other car in IT got? And I'm sorry, but I hardly consider a radical departure from the way things are done for other cars, to accomodate one car, so as to hopefully minimize the agida (sp?) of the drivers of said car, "very reasonable". .
    [/b]
    Bill, my feeling is that the E36 got different, not "special" treatment, but where did you get my quote that we don't want to give the BMW guys "agida"? The idea, again, is to bring the car into the preformance envelope, albeit in a different way. Again, THIS car can not go up a class...at THIS point in time...and weight was looked at, but clearly there were issues that caused pause in it's implementation.

    As to your earlier comment that I think you said gave you an "icky" feeling, perhaps you read into my comment, or I was guilty of using words without secondary reminders of my intent...

    It's late so I'm going to skip searching for the exact post (a mistake, i am sure), but if you think I meant that we were "protecting" the E36's competiveness, I apologise. We are trying to make the car fit the process, and the process should result in a balanced and competitive situation. Idealy, the BMW should have no better, or no worse a competitve chance at the end of the process, than any other car.
    Jake Gulick


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  7. #27
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    Bill, my feeling is that the E36 got different, not "special" treatment, but where did you get my quote that we don't want to give the BMW guys "agida"? The idea, again, is to bring the car into the preformance envelope, albeit in a different way. Again, THIS car can not go up a class...at THIS point in time...and weight was looked at, but clearly there were issues that caused pause in it's implementation.

    As to your earlier comment that I think you said gave you an "icky" feeling, perhaps you read into my comment, or I was guilty of using words without secondary reminders of my intent...

    It's late so I'm going to skip searching for the exact post (a mistake, i am sure), but if you think I meant that we were "protecting" the E36's competiveness, I apologise. We are trying to make the car fit the process, and the process should result in a balanced and competitive situation. Idealy, the BMW should have no better, or no worse a competitve chance at the end of the process, than any other car.
    [/b]

    Jake,

    I'm really not trying to pick a fight, but let's not play word games w/ 'special' and 'different'. But, if you'd prefer to use 'different' than 'special', I'm ok w/ that. What you've said then, is that the E36 got treated differently than any other car listed in the ITCS.

    This comment, straight from Bob Dowie's letter that you posted
    Regarding the BMW E36, the CRB chose to institute use of the SIR restrictor instead of increased weight because the car was already listed and competing at the current weight. The committee target weight would have had the competitors locating and installing legally removed stock components or adding a great deal of ballast. Neither were felt to be are good options.[/b]
    And this from your post in the thread in the BMW Car sub-forum
    First, the CRB is on your side. They are not going to make any decision that could endanger the competiveness of the E36. [/b]
    Are the things that, to me at least, give the impression that the car is being protected, and the goal is to minimize the ajita of the drivers. I'm sorry, but I don't subscribe to Joe Harlan's philosophy that the CRB can just set aside rules, and then change them after the fact, to 'legalize' what has already been done.

    Joe talks about nobody wanting to run a Supra. Well DUH, it's a pig at that weight, and shouldn't have been classed in ITS, w/ the power potential that it has. That's pretty much a self-fullfilling prophecy. I wonder how many would show up if they were spec'd @ 2800# w/ a 26mm SIR?

    You should know me well enough by now, I'm all about internal consistency, and objective application of the process. "Different" treatment for one car hardly fits w/ that.

  8. #28
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    Jake,

    This comment, straight from Bob Dowie's letter that you posted
    And this from your post in the thread in the BMW Car sub-forum
    Are the things that, to me at least, give the impression that the car is being protected, and the goal is to minimize the ajita of the drivers. I'm sorry, but I don't subscribe to Joe Harlan's philosophy that the CRB can just set aside rules, and then change them after the fact, to 'legalize' what has already been done.

    Joe talks about nobody wanting to run a Supra. Well DUH, it's a pig at that weight, and shouldn't have been classed in ITS, w/ the power potential that it has. That's pretty much a self-fullfilling prophecy. I wonder how many would show up if they were spec'd @ 2800# w/ a 26mm SIR?

    You should know me well enough by now, I'm all about internal consistency, and objective application of the process. "Different" treatment for one car hardly fits w/ that.
    [/b]
    Bill, you don't have to buy into the theory. It is being done all over the club. The CRB is finally getting enough sack to make hard choices and fix long standing problems and if it requires a rewrite of a rule it looks like they are willing to do it.

    Nobody is racing the Supra because its not a great car in NA form. The car is a blast with a Turbo. There is not a huge following in any of the celica based cars and I have never understood it but its a fact. I have own 3 Celica's over the years and believe it or not Darin had a GTS at one time. I think an SIR would be good for the car but I don't ever see the car reaching RX7 or BMW numbers in popularity.

    Bill, I am not attempting to shout you down. You just need to go back and look at how many times you have asked the same set of questions and gotten the same answers. One of the biggest resons I see for SIRs in all of our classes is it will put more models in less classes and we will have more racing and less parading in undersubcribed classes. I am all for another IT class when the time is right but I think that 240 to 300WHP is where that class ends up so we need to be able to control the topside of every class for the cars that don't fit any catagory.

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  9. #29
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    Joe,

    The Supra in question is the first of the non-Celica based ones. And like I said, I've got no problems w/ changing the rules. What I have a problem w/ is setting aside the rules because they don't jive w/ what you want to do. To me, it's really no different than the rationale that people use to justify cheating.

  10. #30
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    Bill,

    First, nobody is looking to endanger the competiveness of ANY car....the BMW included. That said, the boards are trying to create a process, and administer it to make all cars as competitve as realistically possible.

    Is it getting "special" treatment? Well, some think it is as we are spending more time on it....but we didn't have an egg timer rule on ANY car, and some were discussed at long length before being resolved. Others took no time at all. Ideally, every car gets "special" treatment, which means none do.....

    I also differ from those who say that the car is getting treated in ways that are counter to the "IT philosophy".

    Well, the philosophy is to apply a process to fit cars into four performance envelopes. It can be done with weight, or it can leave the weight alone and work from another angle. It also mentions "inexpensive" as a design goal. Assuming that means compared to other forms of racing...and I feel that the SIR accomplishes it's goals inexpensively, in the long run as well, compared to the alternative.

    You have a point on the Supra, and I honestly can not remember (some calls were more than 5 hrs long) the Supra discussion, It is possible that it was considered a non issue as it has rarely if ever been seen on the track. Not saying thats the case, I guess some checking needs to be done there, but hey, maybe it should get a SIR slapped on it.
    Jake Gulick


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  11. #31
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    Bill,

    First, nobody is looking to endanger the competiveness of ANY car....the BMW included. That said, the boards are trying to create a process, and administer it to make all cars as competitve as realistically possible.

    Is it getting "special" treatment? Well, some think it is as we are spending more time on it....but we didn't have an egg timer rule on ANY car, and some were discussed at long length before being resolved. Others took no time at all. Ideally, every car gets "special" treatment, which means none do.....
    [/b]
    Jake,

    It seems that you've forgotten the distinction between rain and that slightly yellower liquid again.

    I also differ from those who say that the car is getting treated in ways that are counter to the "IT philosophy".

    Well, the philosophy is to apply a process to fit cars into four performance envelopes. It can be done with weight, or it can leave the weight alone and work from another angle. It also mentions "inexpensive" as a design goal. Assuming that means compared to other forms of racing...and I feel that the SIR accomplishes it's goals inexpensively, in the long run as well, compared to the alternative.
    [/b]
    Actually Jake, the way the rule is written, the 'other angle' is supposed to be applied once it's determined that the original process weight is 'off'.

    You really don't want to go down the road that uses SIRs as part of initial classification model. You have no idea how big that can of worms is.
    You have a point on the Supra, and I honestly can not remember (some calls were more than 5 hrs long) the Supra discussion, It is possible that it was considered a non issue as it has rarely if ever been seen on the track. Not saying thats the case, I guess some checking needs to be done there, but hey, maybe it should get a SIR slapped on it.
    [/b]
    No Jake, it should be used as another data point that supports the need for a class above ITS. Throw the SIR idea out, and work on getting ITR implemented. You've got 7-8 months to put it together, and get it implemented in time for the '07 season. I'll go on record as offereing to help w/ defining the class, and developing the car list.


    Kirk,

    LOVE the new avatar!

  12. #32
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    [quote]
    (some calls were more than 5 hrs long)

    Jake and the ITAC guys.......

    I know how much time is worth both professionally and personally. Thank You for your level of dedication to our sport.

    R
    Rob Breault
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  13. #33
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    No Jake, it should be used as another data point that supports the need for a class above ITS. Throw the SIR idea out, and work on getting ITR implemented. You've got 7-8 months to put it together, and get it implemented in time for the '07 season. I'll go on record as offereing to help w/ defining the class, and developing the car list.
    Kirk,

    LOVE the new avatar!
    [/b]
    I went on my regional message form to look for support to form a new class above ITS and all I got were people telling me to buy a car that's already classed or race ITE . It seems that those who responded feel there's already too many classes to deal with as it is. That's why I dropped the subject, even if it's in the national regs doesn't mean they'll run it here as IT IS a reagonal class. I've resigned myself to just running ITE and being run over by the Vette/Viper crowd Unless the SIR can be made to work, then we'll see if the 2.8l Z3 can be classed in ITS, the 2.5l Z4 is almost old enough to class, why can't I get my car classed?

    James
    STU BMW Z3 2.5liter

  14. #34
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    Jake,

    It seems that you've forgotten the distinction between rain and that slightly yellower liquid again.
    [/b]
    You know Bill, I really try to remain honest and post with integrity. I also try to keep my posts, for the most port, on the nice side of rude. If you think I am using your ear to urinate in, I beg to differ...it isn't my nature to be that rude. I was merely trying to use different words to fine tune a written concept.

    I think we'll just agree to disagree.
    Jake Gulick


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  15. #35
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    You really don't want to go down the road that uses SIRs as part of initial classification model. You have no idea how big that can of worms is.
    [/b]
    Bill,

    What makes you guys here think that YOU are the only ones who "have an idea"??? Don't kid yourselves... if you guys are talking about it here, it's been discussed before...
    Darin E. Jordan
    Renton, WA

  16. #36
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    Bill,

    What makes you guys here think that YOU are the only ones who "have an idea"??? Don't kid yourselves... if you guys are talking about it here, it's been discussed before...
    [/b]

    Geez Darin, I had no idea you had a corner on the market for original ideas.

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