SIR TEST RESULTS

[Bill Miller]

Bill, I assume you will sign on to the request I am sending in for the Supra?
[/b]

Yep, so long as you sign on a request to move the 1st gen. RX7 and the AW11 MR2 to ITB w/ an SIR.

[Joe Harlan]

Yep, so long as you sign on a request to move the 1st gen. RX7 and the AW11 MR2 to ITB w/ an SIR.
[/b]

Ha, When I was asked about what I thought on this issue I said move them with weight and don't hesitate. I think it was the wheel issue(which i think is BS) that prevented those cars from being moved. Too bad cause I think ITB is under utilized and could have used the cars.

[Doc Bro]

Part of the reason some folks are having a hard time getting their heads around this issue, is they just can't give up the idea that race results should drive the specification process.

K
[/b]

I agree totally Kirk, no one should ever play the race [result] card!! :P

[Fastfred92]

Part of the reason some folks are having a hard time getting their heads around this issue, is they just can't give up the idea that race results should drive the specification process.
[/b]

The problem I have with all this "process" doublespeak is that everyone throws out the "level playing field" thing yet we cant use results, we must use the "process"..... what level playing field are we talking here..... mathematics or the real field, the race track ????? And all the e36 haters quickly dismiss the ARRC results as beating a dead horse or not really as close as it looks ( black helicopters there ) and so on, I dont see any results set from any area last year that would suggest things are so out of whack but the "process" said it is so??? Did unrestricted 2850 e36's spank ass a few years back .... YES, did RX7's rule the roost before that... YES did last year with plate e36's seem closer... YES Did Steve E spank the allmighty e36 at the SIC... YES

I dont understand

[Matt Rowe]

what level playing field are we talking here..... mathematics or the real field, the race track ?????
[/b]

The level playing field has to be the mathematics because there are too many variables to account for in on track performance. We've spent days arguing about a suitable test plan for dyno testing the SIR. About the only thing that would make most people happy would be multiple full prep, known legal motors of each make on an engine dyno with full data collection. Now take that same level of detail and apply it to race results. You would need the same driver in multiple known full prep legal cars running in the same conditions (weather, track, traffic) over multiple laps. Oh yeah and unlike a dyno you have to come up with a way to verify no one is sandbagging. Throw on top of that needing to do that same test at several tracks. It's just not practical to do that so we rely on the math.
(I'm so glad I finally got to use that!)

If you really want cars balanced by race results the World Challenge does it. But they do it with far less cars, on a handful of tracks where everyone runs at the same time. They use comp adjustments on a race by race basis and a driver by driver basis. On top of that they have 10 times the level of control for spec line changes. Oh and they must spend so much money administering the system that club racing has to subsidize it. Personally I don't want to have to double the size of the ITAC and pay them a full time salary.

[seckerich]

The problem I have with all this "process" doublespeak is that everyone throws out the "level playing field" thing yet we cant use results, we must use the "process"..... what level playing field are we talking here..... mathematics or the real field, the race track ????? And all the e36 haters quickly dismiss the ARRC results as beating a dead horse or not really as close as it looks ( black helicopters there ) and so on, I dont see any results set from any area last year that would suggest things are so out of whack but the "process" said it is so??? Did unrestricted 2850 e36's spank ass a few years back .... YES, did RX7's rule the roost before that... YES did last year with plate e36's seem closer... YES Did Steve E spank the allmighty e36 at the SIC... YES

I dont understand
[/b]

Don't jump on that one too quick. I got a 6-7 car length lead with a very risky outside move in one on the first lap. Garcia ran me down on the next run down the front straight and led until I took him in over his head on lap 4. He went off --see that results are not always what they seem.

[Bill Miller]

Ha, When I was asked about what I thought on this issue I said move them with weight and don't hesitate. I think it was the wheel issue(which i think is BS) that prevented those cars from being moved. Too bad cause I think ITB is under utilized and could have used the cars.
[/b]

That&#39;s not the information I&#39;ve gotten Joe. It was the fact that the cages would be out of compliance, at the higher weight. Besides, the MR2 uses 4x100 wheels, of which you can buy set after set of new 14x6 4x100 wheels for <$500, and set after set of used ones for $50 - $200. The old 7" wheels would fit on a bunch of other ITA and ITS cars.

[dj10]

Don&#39;t jump on that one too quick. I got a 6-7 car length lead with a very risky outside move in one on the first lap. Garcia ran me down on the next run down the front straight and led until I took him in over his head on lap 4. He went off --see that results are not always what they seem.
[/b]

Didn&#39;t Rob Huffmaster walk away from Garcia at ARRC? I believe he did. But I do agree you can&#39;t use results for anything more than a sign.
Steve, do you know if Garcia&#39;s BMW is Motec&#39;ed? I was at ARRC and noticed how nice his car was but never got to look at it in the pits. The sob took my number too.
dj

[Joe Harlan]

That&#39;s not the information I&#39;ve gotten Joe. It was the fact that the cages would be out of compliance, at the higher weight. Besides, the MR2 uses 4x100 wheels, of which you can buy set after set of new 14x6 4x100 wheels for <$500, and set after set of used ones for $50 - $200. The old 7" wheels would fit on a bunch of other ITA and ITS cars.
[/b]

Bill, You bring up the other part that I had forgot. I remember the wheel deal because I think it is one of the stupidest arguments in SCCA...Cage deal is a little different.

[seckerich]

Didn&#39;t Rob Huffmaster walk away from Garcia at ARRC? I believe he did. But I do agree you can&#39;t use results for anything more than a sign.
Steve, do you know if Garcia&#39;s BMW is Motec&#39;ed? I was at ARRC and noticed how nice his car was but never got to look at it in the pits. The sob took my number too.
dj
[/b]

10/10ths bimmerworld and I&#39;m sure he said he had Motec. We rag each other in impound but Carlos is straight up. Rob was pulling away through the corners and he carrys lots of speed. He is a very good driver for his age. He ran one of our RX8&#39;s at Daytona with his father and they were both fast. Ask me at the track sometime and I will show you incar of the speed difference in mine and some of the bimmers.

[BMW RACER]

Are anymore SIR/No SIR dyno tests planned for this weekend??

INQUIRING MINDS NEED TO KNOW!

[dj10]

10/10ths bimmerworld and I&#39;m sure he said he had Motec. We rag each other in impound but Carlos is straight up. Rob was pulling away through the corners and he carrys lots of speed. He is a very good driver for his age. He ran one of our RX8&#39;s at Daytona with his father and they were both fast. Ask me at the track sometime and I will show you incar of the speed difference in mine and some of the bimmers.
[/b]

Yea I know Rob & Ray his dad, both are as you say straight up, good drivers and all around very nice guys.
I wished I had a chance to talk to Carlos @ ARRC but was to busy to get over to talk to him.
This SIR will slow us down. hehe

Are anymore SIR/No SIR dyno tests planned for this weekend??

INQUIRING MINDS NEED TO KNOW!
[/b]

I HEARD THESE WAS MORE TESTING THIS WEEKEND, BUT THEY WON&#39;T POST ANYTHING......TOP SECERT!!!
THEY COULD TELL YOU BUT THEN WOULD HAVE TO KILL YOU!

[steve s]

carlos car does not run a motec.stock computer!!!!
the hp # they claim the bmw makes we cannot make those #s. if bruce is making those #s he should be faster than us or maybe those #s are to sell his car.??????
we started testing with the SIR and we had alot of prooblem .runs rich stalls out problem idling ,etc.very discouraging.
hell at 3000 rpm the car almost died. we may switch class???? we&#39;re talking about it.
all i&#39;m going to say is 27mm is way too small.cannot even make 160 whp.
didn&#39;t want to say anything b4 this.we already missed 1 race because of the SIR. at least we have a break till april. but eeeven then they should give us at least 3months notice to develop the car.

[Knestis]

Yay! Another vote for lead.

K

[dj10]

carlos car does not run a motec.stock computer!!!!
the hp # they claim the bmw makes we cannot make those #s. if bruce is making those #s he should be faster than us or maybe those #s are to sell his car.??????
we started testing with the SIR and we had alot of prooblem .runs rich stalls out problem idling ,etc.very discouraging.
hell at 3000 rpm the car almost died. we may switch class???? we&#39;re talking about it.
all i&#39;m going to say is 27mm is way too small.cannot even make 160 whp.
didn&#39;t want to say anything b4 this.we already missed 1 race because of the SIR. at least we have a break till april. but eeeven then they should give us at least 3months notice to develop the car.
[/b]

Steve, thanks for the info. We have heard the same things from different BMW engine builders.
You need to find out what dyno Bruce is using, maybe his is reading high, or yours is read low? Different dynos read differently.
Carlo&#39;s car is very well prepared & driven well from what I saw at ARRC.
Best of luck to you guys.
dj

[Joe Harlan]

carlos car does not run a motec.stock computer!!!!
the hp # they claim the bmw makes we cannot make those #s. if bruce is making those #s he should be faster than us or maybe those #s are to sell his car.??????
we started testing with the SIR and we had alot of prooblem .runs rich stalls out problem idling ,etc.very discouraging.
hell at 3000 rpm the car almost died. we may switch class???? we&#39;re talking about it.
all i&#39;m going to say is 27mm is way too small.cannot even make 160 whp.
didn&#39;t want to say anything b4 this.we already missed 1 race because of the SIR. at least we have a break till april. but eeeven then they should give us at least 3months notice to develop the car.
[/b]

Steve, I have been doing research on the problem John Norris said he was having. I called him and recommended that he try putting the SIR between the MAF and the throttle body. I am convinced the issue is the SIR is causing the MAF to see to much velocity in air flow. I am pretty convinced that the SIR will function properly between the MAF and the TB.

[Knestis]

I don&#39;t know why but I&#39;d presume that the best approach would be to put the SIR at the very beginning of the system, in front of a big plenum, then the MAF (et al.). Strive for some fluid damping effect with a large volume of air to slow the transition to/from sonic airflow and SIR effect. Also decrease stream velocities and/or turbulence at the MAF.
K

[GKR_17]

Tungsten (W) is very dense to the tune of 19250 kg/m^3. Or, 1198 lbs/ft^3. All you’d need for 300 lbs is a block 6” x 6” x 11”, or variations of that theme. Go to www.onlinemetals.com and they will size one up for you... ...And it isn&#39;t a rare super expensive material either, it is fairly cheap.
[/b]

Not that this is relavent to SIR&#39;s, but a look at onlinemetals.com doesn&#39;t show it in their inventory. Also, the ballpark number I&#39;ve heard for tungsten block is $75+ per pound, which works out to $22,500 for that 300 lb. sample. If that&#39;s cheap, I need to start marketing Jensen parts.

[Joe Harlan]

I don&#39;t know why but I&#39;d presume that the best approach would be to put the SIR at the very beginning of the system, in front of a big plenum, then the MAF (et al.). Strive for some fluid damping effect with a large volume of air to slow the transition to/from sonic airflow and SIR effect. Also decrease stream velocities and/or turbulence at the MAF.
K
[/b]

Kirk that was my original thought but packaging under the IT rules don&#39;t make for enough room there and I am not sure you can make a box big enough to slow the air enough to stop the effect it is having on the SIR. Putting it between the MAF and the TB will allow the maf still read actual air intake that is being gulped by the engine.

[BMW RACER]

Not that this is relavent to SIR&#39;s, but a look at onlinemetals.com doesn&#39;t show it in their inventory. Also, the ballpark number I&#39;ve heard for tungsten block is $75+ per pound, which works out to $22,500 for that 300 lb. sample. If that&#39;s cheap, I need to start marketing Jensen parts.

THAT&#39;S HILARIOUS! AND I WAS WORRIED ABOUT THE COST OF SHIPPING!