SIR TEST RESULTS

[dj10]

Wow, this is hard to be PC....To a certain extent that's exactly what I was saying but i don't mean it as harsh as Mlytle makes it sound.
Joe, chill out I would expect a little more class from you.

My comments are more about the car that shows up completely under developed and beats a well developed car and does it on toyo's to boot is just wrong. Then put a decent built car with a driver that can't find an apex to save his/her butt and it still beats a well prepped and driven 240z you get the same result.(frustrated drivers) Add to that a well driven well prepped car on good tires and you have the recipe to kill a class.

Joe, that's not saying to much about the 240 driver if this actually happened. Could you be exaggurating a bit? I've seen good Z drivers and there is no way a poor to mediocare driver will win, unless it's a drag race.

I understand the frustration but I don't understand the abuse on the guys that have worked hard to create fix that will in the end make the class healthy for all and in the end will be the most cost effective for those using it. I know that you all think your gonna develop around it but your not. I estimated that 300lbs over 10 races will run you an extra 6000 bucks in tires brakes wear and tear on the car. To me looking at the big picture if I spent a grand to make the SIR work it would be a 5k savings over weight in the first season alone.

Joe don't castrate all of us because of a few that may have radical views or posts. This is not fair. Your right about the weight Joe & the money, but I guarantee I wouldn't be spending it for events in SCCA. As for the big picture I bet if you calculate the time and materials that they have testing these SIR's to date it would be a hell of a lot more than 1K. Just bring back the RP, reduce the size if need be, don't allow any beveling of the spacer plate, for 100 bucks.

[Joe Harlan]

Wow, this is hard to be PC....To a certain extent that's exactly what I was saying but i don't mean it as harsh as Mlytle makes it sound.
Joe, chill out I would expect a little more class from you.

My comments are more about the car that shows up completely under developed and beats a well developed car and does it on toyo's to boot is just wrong. Then put a decent built car with a driver that can't find an apex to save his/her butt and it still beats a well prepped and driven 240z you get the same result.(frustrated drivers) Add to that a well driven well prepped car on good tires and you have the recipe to kill a class.

Joe, that's not saying to much about the 240 driver if this actually happened. Could you be exaggurating a bit? I've seen good Z drivers and there is no way a poor to mediocare driver will win, unless it's a drag race.

I understand the frustration but I don't understand the abuse on the guys that have worked hard to create fix that will in the end make the class healthy for all and in the end will be the most cost effective for those using it. I know that you all think your gonna develop around it but your not. I estimated that 300lbs over 10 races will run you an extra 6000 bucks in tires brakes wear and tear on the car. To me looking at the big picture if I spent a grand to make the SIR work it would be a 5k savings over weight in the first season alone.

Joe don't castrate all of us because of a few that may have radical views or posts. This is not fair. Your right about the weight Joe & the money, but I guarantee I wouldn't be spending it for events in SCCA. As for the big picture I bet if you calculate the time and materials that they have testing these SIR's to date it would be a hell of a lot more than 1K. Just bring back the RP, reduce the size if need be, don't allow any beveling of the spacer plate, for 100 bucks.
[/b]

DJ we are gonna have to teach you how to use the quote feature cause that was hard to read.


You don't race out here on the northern west coast....it's all about HP dude. Once you loose the drag race you have to do some scary stuff to get back around. There was no talking out of school here. I built and dynoed the engines in the 3 cars we are talking about. My numbers will compare to any real numbers on the market. My engines in these cars have set Track records and the 3 drivers we are talking are all recognized as top level. The things I have said I have actually witnessed.

The flat plate is worthless and even if it weren't being cheated it not the right way to make this system work.

I don't mean to brand all Bimmer guys with a broad brush because Ihave actually spent time on the phone with a lot of them that are doing their best to make this work and get back to racing. it just gets frustrating that some richard craniums want to make it personal with a group of guys that are working their coloective asses off to work this deal out. So chill? I don't think so.

PS DJ, it is not classless to have the sack to speak the truth when the truth is warranted.

[zracre]

I hate to pop into this, but it seems abnormally long for something that needs to be implemented in less than a month...If it takes this long for the SCCA to fine tune and figure out the SIR on the BMW, how long will it take the guy that does this on weekends and a budget?? I think egos should be pushed aside, some weight added (3050) with or w/o FPR and leave the SIR for the end of 2006 for 1/1/07. It would take alot of stress away from an already scetchy year for many of the affected drivers. I'm sure the SIR will work but it is painfully obvious (giant purple elephant sitting in the room) that it needs to be tested for proper results. I'm sure the time would help SCCA get a better idea of the how's and what if's of making it work in a manner that can be implemented by the average club racer. Just a concerned member looking out for the best of the club.

[Joe Harlan]

I hate to pop into this, but it seems abnormally long for something that needs to be implemented in less than a month...If it takes this long for the SCCA to fine tune and figure out the SIR on the BMW, how long will it take the guy that does this on weekends and a budget?? I think egos should be pushed aside, some weight added (3050) with or w/o FPR and leave the SIR for the end of 2006 for 1/1/07. It would take alot of stress away from an already scetchy year for many of the affected drivers. I'm sure the SIR will work but it is painfully obvious (giant purple elephant sitting in the room) that it needs to be tested for proper results. I'm sure the time would help SCCA get a better idea of the how's and what if's of making it work in a manner that can be implemented by the average club racer. Just a concerned member looking out for the best of the club.
[/b]

Evan, there are regions tht race year round, Why would that be any better? The reality is I think the testing is being done to passify(sp?) a group of people because I think this thing is sized pretty correct based on the math I have seen. It would not matter when the rule is set for people will wait till the last second and threaten to take a walk when that deadline comes. Sometimes you jusrt have to hit hte ball and see where it lands.

[dj10]

DJ we are gonna have to teach you how to use the quote feature cause that was hard to read.
You don't race out here on the northern west coast....it's all about HP dude. Once you loose the drag race you have to do some scary stuff to get back around. There was no talking out of school here. I built and dynoed the engines in the 3 cars we are talking about. My numbers will compare to any real numbers on the market. My engines in these cars have set Track records and the 3 drivers we are talking are all recognized as top level. The things I have said I have actually witnessed.

The flat plate is worthless and even if it weren't being cheated it not the right way to make this system work.

I don't mean to brand all Bimmer guys with a broad brush because Ihave actually spent time on the phone with a lot of them that are doing their best to make this work and get back to racing. it just gets frustrating that some richard craniums want to make it personal with a group of guys that are working their coloective asses off to work this deal out. So chill? I don't think so.

PS DJ, it is not classless to have the sack to speak the truth when the truth is warranted.
[/b]

Sorry Joe, I was in a hurry.
A FP restrictor tested on a Mustang Dyno killed 4 hp. That's a fact! So they are not entirely useless.
Your going to have a corinary bitching at a couple of people. What ever, just please don't generalize.
What you said that Mlytle responed to, was uncalled for.
Joe if you got beat by a mediocre driver in a BMW, my friend, I think that BMW was cheating big time! Probably a 2.8L with illegal cam timing and cams.
I just wished the CRB would have planned ahead, it could saved everyone a lot of problems. What is done is done. Nothing to do but wait.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I hate to pop into this, but it seems abnormally long for something that needs to be implemented in less than a month...If it takes this long for the SCCA to fine tune and figure out the SIR on the BMW, how long will it take the guy that does this on weekends and a budget?? I think egos should be pushed aside, some weight added (3050) with or w/o FPR and leave the SIR for the end of 2006 for 1/1/07. It would take alot of stress away from an already scetchy year for many of the affected drivers. I'm sure the SIR will work but it is painfully obvious (giant purple elephant sitting in the room) that it needs to be tested for proper results. I'm sure the time would help SCCA get a better idea of the how's and what if's of making it work in a manner that can be implemented by the average club racer. Just a concerned member looking out for the best of the club. [/b]

Ev,

It's not that the testers are trying to figure out how to make the thing work, it's finding cars, guys and time to do this (usually on a weekend) basic testing. Also, in order to be able to properly graph what effect each size SIR has on power, we had to have sizes made that have never been mass produced yet. 5 sizes have been tested in order to get the full picture.

This isn't about ego's, it's about getting this right, SIR or not, for everyone in ITS.

AB

[erlrich]

I hate to pop into this, but it seems abnormally long for something that needs to be implemented in less than a month...If it takes this long for the SCCA to fine tune and figure out the SIR on the BMW, how long will it take the guy that does this on weekends and a budget?? I think egos should be pushed aside, some weight added (3050) with or w/o FPR and leave the SIR for the end of 2006 for 1/1/07. It would take alot of stress away from an already scetchy year for many of the affected drivers. I'm sure the SIR will work but it is painfully obvious (giant purple elephant sitting in the room) that it needs to be tested for proper results. I'm sure the time would help SCCA get a better idea of the how's and what if's of making it work in a manner that can be implemented by the average club racer. Just a concerned member looking out for the best of the club.
[/b]

As a totally neutral (well, save for the fact that I'm as sick as everyone else of the whining) observer, I have to completely agree with Evan on this one. Unless the CRB plans on handing the BMW guys a 100% complete, bolt-on package that has been shown to work flawlessly I think it is unfair to expect them to have the SIRs installed and ready to go in less than a month. In my opinion 3 months would be more reasonable, and even then only after the proper size has been determined via thorough testing. I understand the desire to get this deal done before many of the regions start up their 2006 seasons, but I think rushing this through is only going to hurt the cause. JMHO

[seckerich]

With all due respect to the time lines given--Was it really a surprise that the Bimmer was going to see a change. The rest of the class has had to put up with the futile (I believe -4HP was just confirmed?) attempts up to this point to achieve some parity in ITS. It has been a long slow process of rule changes to allow any adjustments at all. Then another year of the bogus flat plate restrictor. Now you want the rest of us to spend another year so that we don't make the BMW spend time and money?? If this had been fixed with "errors and omissions" when the car was classed we would not be here. Last I heard it sounds like the ITAC is doing all your homework right now and you can bet the "Coolaid Makers" will have a bolt on ready to go when it hits. Sure only took about a week to make the flat plate useless. Give it a rest guys--it will all be clear soon.

[zchris]

I guess I am still having a hard time with the 325 being such an overdog. I was just looking up AB post on lap records and Nick leverone has the record in an RX7 at NHIS in both configuraations, Lime Rock, Pocono and Watkins Glen. As we all know a cars performance is not just HP. Its also Aerodynamics and weight distribution and many other factors. So with the RX7 so dominant, how can anyone say the breadbox bimmer is an overdog to the rx7 aero sports car that wins. Its not like the bimmer isn't run in the northeast. And I admit I am a little uneasy that AB has not abstained from any of the bimmer discussions as he is from the Mazda RX7 camp. Shame on you Andy. Anyway, 300 lbs seams rediculous for a car that only wins its fair share of events. Not even Auberline in WC had that much weight put on him for repeated wins. Just my opinion. Chris Howard

[seckerich]

I guess I am still having a hard time with the 325 being such an overdog. I was just looking up AB post on lap records and Nick leverone has the record in an RX7 at NHIS in both configuraations, Lime Rock, Pocono and Watkins Glen. As we all know a cars performance is not just HP. Its also Aerodynamics and weight distribution and many other factors. So with the RX7 so dominant, how can anyone say the breadbox bimmer is an overdog to the rx7 aero sports car that wins. Its not like the bimmer isn't run in the northeast. And I admit I am a little uneasy that AB has not abstained from any of the bimmer discussions as he is from the Mazda RX7 camp. Shame on you Andy. Anyway, 300 lbs seams rediculous for a car that only wins its fair share of events. Not even Auberline in WC had that much weight put on him for repeated wins. Just my opinion. Chris Howard
[/b]

So I guess you have run both cars and have something to base your decision on? The comment about Andy is too low to even comment on.

[zracre]

Steve, with all due respect, If they made you put on a SIR on your RX7 and gave you to the end of this month to have it done with no testing, wouldn't you feel a little screwed?? I race an Integra in ITA and now an ITS integra...if these limitations were put on me with a small time frame and undeveloped and untested (thoroughly) sizes that are not even available to the public or known(??!!) I would be really mad!! They slapped 115# on me and I had weeks to gather it and make it work (florida here....races all winter!) but that was easy...the circumstances are significantly different for this. If the BMW gets to race until the end of the year with maybe more lead, then what is it to you as a member? You get to race as normal...
The bottom line is everyone has the best intentions, and a small group is getting short ended and it needs to be adressed before it has worse implications to the club in general. It is easily fixed and its painfully obvious that something needs to be done besides wait for results with weeks and days left not months.

[seckerich]

Simple--Give it the lead. Can be done in one night!! It is the BMW owners that want the lesser of two evils. But it is long past time to do something. And welcome to ITS with the new car. We had some great races with a certain black beast from Florida. Where is Seck??

[Ron Earp]

I guess I am still having a hard time with the 325 being such an overdog. I was just looking up AB post on lap records and Nick leverone has the record in an RX7 at NHIS
[/b]

The reason you are having a hard time with it is you are essentially trying to compare indivdual data points. Forget the track data for the moment.

When the ITAC uses the forumla used to class ALL the cars in ITS it spits out a weight. Every other car in ITS got that weight assigned and a lot of cars got adjustments up or down. Except the BMW. The weight spit out for it was 3150 or 3200 lbs.

Now, all the other cars in ITS use the assigned weight, why not the BMW?

I, nor the others, can help the car was classed too light to begin with. Now the adjustment seems excessive, but it wouldn't seem excessive if the car was closer to the target, like it used to be, at 29XX lbs.

The first step of re-classing the car, done two (?) years ago at 2850 is one mistake that leads to the big hoopla. If the car had been running around at 3000lbs, or whatever, and then needed a 150lb weight adjustment people would have just done it and we wouldn't be discussing SIRs and all the other stuff.

R

[Bill Miller]

When the ITAC uses the forumla used to class ALL the cars in ITS it spits out a weight. Every other car in ITS got that weight assigned and a lot of cars got adjustments up or down. Except the BMW. [/b]

And it simply amazes me that some people can say that this isn't preferential treatment. Face it guys, the honeymoon of the "wink-wink uh, 2850#, yeah that's it! wink-wink" is over. Scream, thump your chest, threaten to leave all you want. From an outsider's perspective, it doesn't paint you folks in all that flattering a light.

[dj10]

And it simply amazes me that some people can say that this isn't preferential treatment. Face it guys, the honeymoon of the "wink-wink uh, 2850#, yeah that's it! wink-wink" is over. Scream, thump your chest, threaten to leave all you want. From an outsider's perspective, it doesn't paint you folks in all that flattering a light.
[/b]

Yea Bill, I really feel perfered.LOL Registration for the 1st race for me is up already and I don't know if, how or what I might be racing. Would you register if you were me? I never believed in getting ready for anything at the last moment and this is a good examplewhy you don't.

Oh Bill, your entire comment has what to do with Testing of the SIR's?

[Andy Bettencourt]

I guess I am still having a hard time with the 325 being such an overdog. I was just looking up AB post on lap records and Nick leverone has the record in an RX7 at NHIS in both configuraations, Lime Rock, Pocono and Watkins Glen. As we all know a cars performance is not just HP. Its also Aerodynamics and weight distribution and many other factors. So with the RX7 so dominant, how can anyone say the breadbox bimmer is an overdog to the rx7 aero sports car that wins. Its not like the bimmer isn't run in the northeast. And I admit I am a little uneasy that AB has not abstained from any of the bimmer discussions as he is from the Mazda RX7 camp. Shame on you Andy. Anyway, 300 lbs seams rediculous for a car that only wins its fair share of events. Not even Auberline in WC had that much weight put on him for repeated wins. Just my opinion. Chris Howard [/b]

Chris,

I expected more from you. Name for me the top prep Bimmers that run at those tracks....I hear crickets. I can't comment on this board on any topic related to ITS? HA! As a matter of fact, most of what I have tried to do is inform people of what info comes from where and how it could be applied. I would love to see this site if none of the ITAC ever posted.

Regional race results mean nothing. Is every car that holds a track record DOMINANT? Of course NOT. This whole issue is over the classification of a car WAY TO LIGHT for it's performance potential. A guy like you who sees the entire GT landscape every day out to know that there is a forrest outside of those trees.

I love the WC reference. If Auberlin's car was 250lb's LIGHTER than is should have been before he got any REWARDS weight, you think it would send him to the back of the pack? NOPE, it would have brought him right back to where he belonged - a legitimate challenger for any win. All the complaints assume that 2850 is the right weight...and it is NOT.

Shame on anyone for not understanding the issues before placing blame.

AB

[zchris]

Steve, my comments are made based on observation from a totally unbiased point of view. I have no BMW or RX7, and as such can look objectively at what is happening. You on the other hand, obviously have an enormous chip on your shoulders about it. I am not saying that I have the Holy Grail of answers. I just don't see the huge overall performance disparity that is claimed. And as I said, just my opinion. The part about AB, if you don't understand the concept of Conflict of Interest, well what can I say. I would not like to be accused of murder only to find out the jury were the victims family members and looking for revenge.

[Bill Miller]

Yea Bill, I really feel perfered.LOL Registration for the 1st race for me is up already and I don't know if, how or what I might be racing. Would you register if you were me? I never believed in getting ready for anything at the last moment and this is a good examplewhy you don't.

Oh Bill, your entire comment has what to do with Testing of the SIR's?
[/b]

Pretty simple dj, since the SIR implementation got pushed back, you race under what's in the '06 ITCS (BTW, did anybody notice that the weight on the car is 2750#??? :119: )

And would I register? Sure, all it takes is a fax or phone call a few days before the weekend if you're not going.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Yea Bill, I really feel perfered.LOL Registration for the 1st race for me is up already and I don't know if, how or what I might be racing. Would you register if you were me? I never believed in getting ready for anything at the last moment and this is a good examplewhy you don't.
[/b]

DJ,

Run your race in 2005 prep. Have fun and worry about a change when one comes down. I hope you realize that the CRB is made up of some racers and will try and make it as easy as POSSIBLE to get this done.

Have you sent in a letter with your thoughts?

AB

Steve, my comments are made based on observation from a totally unbiased point of view. I have no BMW or RX7, and as such can look objectively at what is happening. You on the other hand, obviously have an enormous chip on your shoulders about it. I am not saying that I have the Holy Grail of answers. I just don't see the huge overall performance disparity that is claimed. And as I said, just my opinion. The part about AB, if you don't understand the concept of Conflict of Interest, well what can I say. I would not like to be accused of murder only to find out the jury were the victims family members and looking for revenge. [/b]

Chris, inform us what is going on outside NER. Inform us what is going on in the Regions where a BMW has won every race for the last 4 years straight. Inform us what has happend when top Bimmer's run against top ANYTHING (and the 2005 ARRC has been beaten to death - many observers can and will tell you why the race was sort-of close)

If you don't take the time to understand the facts and issues inside your own fishbowl, then how could you possible know what is going on out in the ocean?

As far as I am concerned, read up on how the committies work. Been written a dozen times. Also, you know me personally and we do some business...I am thrilled to know you think this situation is analagous to your 'jury' example. That's a personal shot and I am taking it as such.

AB

[benspeed]

Some of these potshots at Andy have taken an all new low on this site. Andy's a standup guy looking to do the right thing for the club and the ITS class.

All I can say is that it shows real character on his part not to get suckered into making similar low brow remarks.