SIR TEST RESULTS

[its66]

Steve, my comments are made based on observation from a totally unbiased point of view. I have no BMW or RX7, and as such can look objectively at what is happening. You on the other hand, obviously have an enormous chip on your shoulders about it. I am not saying that I have the Holy Grail of answers. I just don't see the huge overall performance disparity that is claimed. And as I said, just my opinion. The part about AB, if you don't understand the concept of Conflict of Interest, well what can I say. I would not like to be accused of murder only to find out the jury were the victims family members and looking for revenge.
[/b]

Would you rather have the ITAC made up of Spec Miata racers, or Vintage guys? AB is apart of the ITAC, he is only one member. I prefer to have the CRB advised by IT racers on matters concerning Improved Touring. Could someone abuse this and make a recommendation which is preferential? Certainly. That is part of why the ITAC makes recommendations instead of rules. Think of AB not as the jury, but more of a witness.

Steve doesn't appear to have a chip on his shoulders about the BMW. He seems to be more frustrated by the comments made on this forum. (as many are).

*disclaimer* I used to race a 240, now I race a Mazda, and drive a bmw daily. I wonder if I am biased also.

[benspeed]

*disclaimer* I used to race a 240, now I race a Mazda, and drive a bmw daily. I wonder if I am biased also.
[/b]

Some on this board might think that disqualifies you from having an opinion without an agenda.

[erlrich]

Steve, my comments are made based on observation from a totally unbiased point of view. I have no BMW or RX7, and as such can look objectively at what is happening. You on the other hand, obviously have an enormous chip on your shoulders about it. I am not saying that I have the Holy Grail of answers. I just don't see the huge overall performance disparity that is claimed. And as I said, just my opinion. The part about AB, if you don't understand the concept of Conflict of Interest, well what can I say. I would not like to be accused of murder only to find out the jury were the victims family members and looking for revenge.
[/b]

Ok, from another totally unbiased point of view; as someone who worked F&C at SP for a few races in 2004 I can guess you never got the chance to watch Ed York and Sam Asinugo have their own private little races while lapping half the field and pulling out to 30+ second margins in 16 lap races. And Ed still holds the SP record at 1:24.8 while the best non-BMW time I've been able to find for that track is in the 1:26+ range. If that's not a performance disparity I don't know what is.

Oh, and what, you would rather the ITAC be made up of a bunch of non-racers? After all the bitching that has been done on these boards about the BMW, you guys think Andy is trying to persue some personal vendetta? Grow up.

[dj10]

DJ,

Run your race in 2005 prep. Have fun and worry about a change when one comes down. I hope you realize that the CRB is made up of some racers and will try and make it as easy as POSSIBLE to get this done.

Have you sent in a letter with your thoughts?

AB
[/b]

AB,
I do know that the CRB has been very helpful with any question I had, since I was new to ITS last year. They were easy to contact and were direct with their answers. On a 1 to 10 scale I would give them a 10 (meaning excellent). I do believe that they or someone droped the ball on the sir issue. I also have been alive long enough to know shit happens. All we want now, is something that we know will work.

Do you think I could type anything that hasn't already been typed without being redundent?

[Andy Bettencourt]

AB,
I do know that the CRB has been very helpful with any question I had, since I was new to ITS last year. They were easy to contact and were direct with their answers. On a 1 to 10 scale I would give them a 10 (meaning excellent). I do believe that they or someone droped the ball on the sir issue. I also have been alive long enough to know shit happens. All we want now, is something that we know will work.

Do you think I could type anything that hasn't already been typed without being redundent?
[/b]

Absolutely. Write in on your thoughts about the whole issue. SIR's, weight, timeframe, your personal prep program - really anything you want. Your goal should be to try and make the CRB understand your position as a racer and what you think is fair.

[seckerich]

Steve, my comments are made based on observation from a totally unbiased point of view. I have no BMW or RX7, and as such can look objectively at what is happening. You on the other hand, obviously have an enormous chip on your shoulders about it. I am not saying that I have the Holy Grail of answers. I just don't see the huge overall performance disparity that is claimed. And as I said, just my opinion. The part about AB, if you don't understand the concept of Conflict of Interest, well what can I say. I would not like to be accused of murder only to find out the jury were the victims family members and looking for revenge.
[/b]

This from someone who has no "chip" about the SIR and wants to swim into this discussion with from GTL?? I have seen your unbiased opinions other places.

[mlytle]

Ok, from another totally unbiased point of view; as someone who worked F&C at SP for a few races in 2004 I can guess you never got the chance to watch Ed York and Sam Asinugo have their own private little races while lapping half the field and pulling out to 30+ second margins in 16 lap races. And Ed still holds the SP record at 1:24.8 while the best non-BMW time I've been able to find for that track is in the 1:26+ range. If that's not a performance disparity I don't know what is.


[/b]

well, as someone who has been actively racing the marrs series at summit point for 4 years...

ed york is a big fish in a little pond. you are talking about one of the top drivers and best prepared its cars in the country.

there have been other non-bmw its cars in the 1:25's at summit, most recently an acura.

ed york was also a regular at watkins glen, where an rx7 hold the track record.

ahh, but now i too have succumbed to the off topic drivel that this thread has become. maybe i will start a new thread "sir v.2" in the hope that just sir test results discussions go on there...

[lateapex911]

Chris, I am surprised at your comments, esp as I was under the impression that you did a lot of FlatOuts (Andy and Nick and the boys&#39 cge work, and have been highly praised by them. So for you to call Andy out like that must mean that you are really upset with his involvement, and his conflicts, either real or imagined.

So a brief explanation of the system, for the millionth time) might be in order.

First, the CRB is made up of members form different categories and regions. This is to minimize any chance of partiality to any particular issue.

Second the ITAC is comprised similarly, and carries no actual rule making capabilities, it merely suggests concepts, specifics, and direction. because it is involved in the actual category, it can see issues others miss. This level of understanding is important. The CRB does take part in the conversations in order to streamline the process, and help guide things expediently, but the two parts perform different functions.

Third, Andy is ONE guy...out of nine, on the ITAC, and as such has limited impact. (Sorry Andy).

Fourth, his "ball" in this game is actually very minimal. I don't hear the ITA guys shreiking "Conflict of interest" when they got their weight handed to them...and it would make more sense there because THAT's where Andy races! And as for Nick, well, he's gone Pro so we won't see him much. Sure FlatOut will take care of certain Mazdas in ITS, but trust me, it is NOT in their best interest to have a car the needs no development, as an RX-7 would if the E36 were to be reduced to an also ran as you are suggesting, as nobody will spend lots of money trying to win by greater margins! It's in the tuners best financial interest for the RX-7 to have competition! And that's assuming that Andy was operating for personal gains.

Fifth, my opinion...Andy may be vocal, and certainly doesn't shy away from involvement, but I have never seen him behave in anything but a proper manner. He makes his ponts, and they are always backed up with reasonable facts.

Finally, you really need to look at the math and not focus on certain results...the guys in the rest of the country, I am sure, are insulted when they read that one car is the "dominant car" becuase it does well locally. And how is it explained that it is off the pace when it travels south?

[dj10]

Jake, if we can talk about SIR data, just for a moment. I would like your opinion again......now this is purely hypothetical and multiple choise
If someone was ever going to post any kind of Dyno and/or SIR data, it would be,
A. within 1 week
B. 1 to 2 weeks
C. Sometime in April but before the 4th of July
D. NOT IN YOUR LIFE TIME SPUNKY! :119:
Thanks
dj

[lateapex911]

Well, I don't want to fall into the trap of making predictions over things I have no control of...so..........

A- I hope so, but am not sure..
B- I hope so, and would think more likely than A.
C-Doubtful...
D-No, information will be posted, in this lifetime!

FYI, you missed the window between 3/20 and 4/1.

Listen, I feel the pressure, and I want to have a solid answer, and feel good about it, as soon as possible. But it's pretty much out of my hands and higher powers have to make their call.

I honestly don't know what the final word is, and before you ask, I wouldn't even make a bet with myself over the outcome...except that I hope it ticks each party off equally, LOL

I know I might have come off a bit pissed in the last post, but I do appreciate the patience displayed by you guys. Well, most of you. I, (we) can take criticism over how this has gone down, but when I start to have accusations thrown my way, I have to draw the line.

[erlrich]

ahh, but now i too have succumbed to the off topic drivel that this thread has become.[/b]

Marshall, you're much wiser than I, you realized you had been sucked in before you ever hit the "post" button, whereas my epiphany came much later

maybe i will start a new thread "sir v.2" in the hope that just sir test results discussions go on there...
[/b]

If you do, I've got $50 on the drivelers

[dj10]

Well, I don't want to fall into the trap of making predictions over things I have no control of...so..........

A- I hope so, but am not sure..
B- I hope so, and would think more likely than A.
C-Doubtful...
D-No, information will be posted, in this lifetime!
FYI, you missed the window between 3/20 and 4/1.
[/b]

Yea I did. Ok 3/20 & 4/1 will be C. hehe

This for your opinion ONLY. I promise you won't get burnt at the stake like they use to do up there.

[Knestis]

ON the topic, I would love to have a 325 owner describe the process and/or result, coming out of the SIR tests, that would satisfy them to the degree that they wouldn't feel cheated.

K

[dj10]

ON the topic, I would love to have a 325 owner describe the process and/or result, coming out of the SIR tests, that would satisfy them to the degree that they wouldn't feel cheated.

K
[/b]

K, 1st of all we need a HP # somewhere near 180 to 195 rwhp. This is just a range and will depend what kind of dyno we are required to use. I beleive the testing should all be completed on one type of dyno to maintain quality control. So the HP number will be some what flexible. We need to know exactly where the SIR is installed to make max hp & torque. I heard it will be best placed from the air filter. We also need to know that the SIR will not kill our upper RPM HP range, which is at or near 6500 to 6800 rpm. We can be shifting at 5500 because the air has hit supersonic at that low of a rpm.
If everything is as advertised, I believe only the top 10% of the BMW's will be effected, easy to say if your not the top 10%. In other words the SIR has to perform as advertised. I'm sure you wouldn't want your whole race season shoot in the ass, chasing your tail.
I do believe that if it works again as advertised, we should and could still win our fair share of races other that maybe a few non SIR motec cars.
Is it a lot? Is anything I've said here anything more than almost all racers already have? I'll let you guys decide.

[zchris]

I just wanted write about my comments in relation to Andy B. I in no way think he is out to get the BMW crowd or is dishonest in any way. My comment was only to say that anyone who is helping to write rules or policy should remove themselves when the particular policy has been so close to them. We are all just human and as such may make a desicion based on a biased feeling about the current rules. Andy has always been an upstanding person in my eye. As I build roll cages it would be just wrong for me to be included in a rules process that was to shape the future of how roll cages are built. I'm to close to the issue and would have a biased opinion on the subject. Sorry AB.

[Joe Harlan]

I just wanted write about my comments in relation to Andy B. I in no way think he is out to get the BMW crowd or is dishonest in any way. My comment was only to say that anyone who is helping to write rules or policy should remove themselves when the particular policy has been so close to them. We are all just human and as such may make a desicion based on a biased feeling about the current rules. Andy has always been an upstanding person in my eye. As I build roll cages it would be just wrong for me to be included in a rules process that was to shape the future of how roll cages are built. I'm to close to the issue and would have a biased opinion on the subject. Sorry AB.
[/b]

Chris, I have never seen your cage work. i have been told good things about it. I feel you are wrong that you shouldn't be included in the writing of those kinds of safety issues, One of the reasons things get screwed is because the exact people that know what needs to be done never help with the process.

[steve s]

good job dj in describing what i .and i would guess all bmw driver/tuners etc would wants from this experiment.
also i am sure this is taking so long is because all the volunteers are trying to be fair .take your time and do the right thing.just give us about 3 months to fully develop/ understand how this would affect the car so we can make the necessary adjustments.thank you.

[MikeBlaszczak]

ON the topic, I would love to have a 325 owner describe the process and/or result, coming out of the SIR tests, that would satisfy them to the degree that they wouldn't feel cheated.
[/b]

Okay, I'll bite. It's the thread I started, after all.

It's too late for me not to feel cheated. I don't know how to prep my car for this year; instead of having months between the rules settling down and my first race, I'm going to have weeks. Maybe.

That aside, I want to know that only the highly-prepared cars are affected. I had a two great seasons in a row; I ran neck-and-neck with a Datsun, and had a great time chasing around an E30 and an Integra. There was no disparity, no walkaways. I spent several races within one second of my competition.

Adding too much weight will take that away. Taking away too much air will take that away from me. And if lose the fun I've been having, I'll feel cheated.

So I'd like to see the SIR tests involve an E36 that isn't making these amazing horsepower numbers; anything over 200 hp seems quite incredible to me. What will it do to my modest setup? Andy, in berating those of us who "don't know anything about SIR technology" says that's exactly what will happen.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Okay, I'll bite. It's the thread I started, after all.

It's too late for me not to feel cheated. I don't know how to prep my car for this year; instead of having months between the rules settling down and my first race, I'm going to have weeks. Maybe.

That aside, I want to know that only the highly-prepared cars are affected. I had a two great seasons in a row; I ran neck-and-neck with a Datsun, and had a great time chasing around an E30 and an Integra. There was no disparity, no walkaways. I spent several races within one second of my competition.

Adding too much weight will take that away. Taking away too much air will take that away from me. And if lose the fun I've been having, I'll feel cheated.

So I'd like to see the SIR tests involve an E36 that isn't making these amazing horsepower numbers; anything over 200 hp seems quite incredible to me. What will it do to my modest setup? Andy, in berating those of us who "don't know anything about SIR technology" says that's exactly what will happen.

I'll believe it when I see it. [/b]

I think 'berating' is a strong word. Before complaining, I think it's prudent to do the research. Simple as that. I apologize if it came off like that.

The SIR technology is being proven/disproven as we speak. They have some great data. It may work out, it may not. Bottom line? The CRB is trying to keep the most ITS cars on track with the most fair decision. Fair to ALL in ITS. It is understandable the issues you have on the timing. We all would have the same issues but you have to understand you can run at 2005 specs for now and hope the CRB allows enough time for proper transition.

I do think, that you will find little sympathy from other racers (especially those in ITS) for your request to remain competitive at a 'modest' prep level. Every car that is classed has to run it's proper minimum weight - no matter the prep level. You are looking for a free pass...unfortunatley for those of us who can't prep to the max right now, the classification process HAS to be based on potential, or else you would have overdogs running around all over the place.

Thanks for answering, it's important the CRB understands your position. Seriously.

(On edit: If you feel strongly about your position, send it into the CRB. It only takes a day or so for it to get logged)

[Bill Miller]

That aside, I want to know that only the highly-prepared cars are affected. I had a two great seasons in a row; I ran neck-and-neck with a Datsun, and had a great time chasing around an E30 and an Integra. There was no disparity, no walkaways. I spent several races within one second of my competition.[/b]

Mike,

Do you even read what you're typing? As Andy said, don't look for sympathy from too many people over this. You want a car that runs at the front w/o putting the time and money into developing both the car and the driver. Nobody else gets that kind of break. That's another reason that ALL cars should be treated the same.