SIR testing?

[dj10]

The CRB is testing these this weekend IIRC. If an adjustment in size is needed, IT WILL BE DONE.
AB
[/b]

WAITING WITH BATED BREATH!

[mlytle]

Thanks for the words of encouragement. At this point I'm going for it and then decide after some track time. I don't think fitment should be too hard. I've found a source for aluminum tubing: www.burnsstainless.com

I'm thinking of getting some 3" tubing in straight and curved sections. Then cutting and welding it kind of like how people fabricate exhaust systems.

Routing wise, I'm thinking 45 deg out of the air mass sensor, down through the hole under the left headlight, kind of like most aftermarket "cold air systems" Then making a right turn that will run in front of the radiator over to the area behind the right fog light. I'll keep you posted on the results.

The hoses shouldn't be too tough I'm thinking 3" tubing, 4mm difference should be workable. Once again I'll get back to you on that.
[/b]

careful with where you put that air filter john. read the itcs carefully. i think the location you are thinking of is outside the engine compt and may be illegal. that hole under the headlight could be defined as the limit of the engine compt.

[BMW RACER]

Just got off the phone with Dave at Raetech, He says they've changed the date to April 1! And changed the size to 29mm.

[lateapex911]

That's news to me. Not that it is, or isn't true, it's just that I haven't gotten anything official on it.

But, I DO know that IF the size proved incorrect, Dave had said from the begining he would swap out the sections no charge.

The timing was tight on this, and I was surprised to see it go down that way. If it's true, how does the 4/1 date work for the E36 guys?

[dj10]

Just got off the phone with Dave at Raetech, He says they've changed the date to April 1! And changed the size to 29mm.
[/b]

This isn't a joke is it? Hey Andy better hold off on your test.
Maybe by 4/1 it will be up to 32mm. Yes in theory. Wouldn't it be nice for some practical application here.

[seckerich]

Screw this--give the car the 300 pounds the process said it should weigh and lets go racing. Doesent matter what is done to try to keep the car competitive and slow it some. Run some tubes down from the door bars to hold a weight box and fill it with lead. The ITAC will just get endless crap until they cave to the 30mm, no 40mm, hold it 50mm--nevermind if you just let us keep our advantage crowd. You made a good faith effort and get trashed either way--so let the lead fly!!

[mlytle]

Just got off the phone with Dave at Raetech, He says they've changed the date to April 1! And changed the size to 29mm.
[/b]

could that be the result of some....omg...actual TESTING???

we need details!

[gpeluso]

Andy,
How much Horsepower is lost from the crank??? On a BMW. If you don't know the answer you shouldn't be preaching 220chp is the answer. I beleive there is about 15% lost? So, my point is the BMW would be overweight for the horsepower being put out compared to the RX7. If you don't know the answer to the first how could anyone oncluding you decide what crank horsepower was need and for that point what SIR size?
bmw=220chp 15% lose= 187hp at 2850lbs

rx7=182whp (per A at 2650lbs


????????????????????????????????

Hey, is the SCCA going to help the guys who already bought the first SIR?

300 lbs may not be right either...................different dyno's give different hp(mustang vs dynojet) are you really comparing apples to apples and just like James Clay stated years ago about the euro cams, are you sure that some of the high hp from BMW's are legal hp. Revisit old post from Clay talking about these illegal cams that are difficult to tell from stock due to part numbers. The SCCA has an even smaller window to do the right thing.
Greg

[Andy Bettencourt]

Greg,

220hp IS the answer I believe. It's what the BMW should make to fit in ITS. The process is based on crank numbers. This has been stated probably a hundred times.

Is it ironic that no BMW owners have posted here?

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...?showtopic=7315

3100-3150 would be a number based on process weight - backed up by dyno sheets - not BASED on dyno sheets.

And the RX-7 weighs 2680...

There will be no holding back on any test. The more data the better to satisfy the critics and/or validate a need for a change (bigger or smaller SIR). There has been no data submitted as of tonight.

[gpeluso]

<_< Andy,

You are missing my point? from 220chp what would be the whp from the drivetrain loss?(on a BMW)
It isn&#39;t 220whp!

Just because you write a hundred times doesn&#39;t make it right.



Greg

Why not compare whp? How do we know the RX7 is 220chp? Don&#39;t you have to take the drivetrains into consideration? Isn&#39;t whp the real end result??

So far your theory isn&#39;t to hot!

Stop this and admit you and the SCCA need more time before making any adjustment this year!

Greg

[Andy Bettencourt]

<_< Andy,

You are missing my point? from 220chp what would be the whp from the drivetrain loss?(on a BMW)
It isn&#39;t 220whp!

Just because you write a hundred times doesn&#39;t make it right.



Greg

Why not compare whp? How do we know the RX7 is 220chp? Don&#39;t you have to take the drivetrains into consideration? Isn&#39;t whp the real end result??

So far your theory isn&#39;t to hot!

Stop this and admit you and the SCCA need more time before making any adjustment this year!

Greg [/b]

Greg,

When *I* estimate, I use 18% losses for a RWD car. Let&#39;s assume the RX-7 and the BMW will make 220chp or ~ 180whp. Drievtrain losses can vary from E36 to E36. You should see some of the things that spec-cars do to eliminate losses. It&#39;s never gonna be perfect. Spell out for everyone what you would do and how you would do it for 2006. Then I will ask Steve E. to respond to it so you can understand all sides.

Still haven&#39;t seen your &#39;answer&#39; in the other thread.

I have no more energy to debate this over and over. Your questions and concerns have been discussed in other threads.

AB

[seckerich]

Andy is correct with his statements about driveline loss. This is not a free ride if your developement on the whole package is not good. If you don&#39;t use light oils, low viscosity grease, and a few other tricks you can learn on your own--don&#39;t expect to get the same rear wheel results as everyone else. You get the power from the motor with a given set of trans ratios--up to you to make the most of it.

[dj10]

could that be the result of some....omg...actual TESTING???

we need details!
[/b]

Marshall & Greg, are we having fun yet?

[Greg Amy]

Marshall & Greg, are we having fun yet?[/b]

You may be, but the rest of us are just getting sick and tired of the bitching.

Well, just don&#39;t read it then!
Would we be so lucky. If you know how to ignore specific folks on this board, lead me to it.

Well don&#39;t you think we have a reason to bitch?
Yes, once or twice, not incessantly. Do you really think andy Bettencourt is the one that made the decisions against which you&#39;re so vehemently opposed? Do you really think Andy Bettencourt has the ability to poof! make these changes back to where they were?

What was the response on the letter you mailed to the CRB?

Plus, I didn&#39;t see the Bimmer Boys getting all so upset as these beautiful pieces of machinery were wiping up the competition. I didn&#39;t see the Bimmer Boys getting all upset when 2-liter front-wheel-drive cars were languishing in ITS and getting lapped twice a race (by mostly BMWs). And don&#39;t give me that tired line about how uncompetitive they were/are...it&#39;s just immature. You must really think the rest of the world is stupid.

Sorry, guys, but you&#39;re quickly becoming a bunch of whiney babies. Either make a reasonable effort for change or simply go off to the BMW club and have a big group cry. I, personally, am tired of it. - GA

[dj10]

You may be, but the rest of us are just getting sick and tired of the bitching.

Well, just don&#39;t read it then!
Would we be so lucky. If you know how to ignore specific folks on this board, lead me to it.

Well don&#39;t you think we have a reason to bitch?
Yes, once or twice, not incessantly. Do you really think andy Bettencourt is the one that made the decisions against which you&#39;re so vehemently opposed? Do you really think Andy Bettencourt has the ability to poof! make these changes back to where they were?

What was the response on the letter you mailed to the CRB?

Plus, I didn&#39;t see the Bimmer Boys getting all so upset as these beautiful pieces of machinery were wiping up the competition. I didn&#39;t see the Bimmer Boys getting all upset when 2-liter front-wheel-drive cars were languishing in ITS and getting lapped twice a race (by mostly BMWs). And don&#39;t give me that tired line about how uncompetitive they were/are...it&#39;s just immature. You must really think the rest of the world is stupid.

Sorry, guys, but you&#39;re quickly becoming a bunch of whiney babies. Either make a reasonable effort for change or simply go off to the BMW club and have a big group cry. I, personally, am tired of it. - GA

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe you should try living better thru modern chemistry.
This entire quote has nothing to do with what I typed.
[/b]

[b]

[JeffYoung]

Dj, sorry, but Greg is right. As a driver of a "challenged" ITS car, I had hoped you guys would be reigned in some, but totally disagreed with the SIR and I had some sympathy for you.

However, the responses I have seen here by the BMW "crowd" (more on that in a minute, since it is only a few of you) really turned me off to you guys. This is not some big Andy B. led conspiracy to screw BMWs. It was a legitimate attempt to fix a playing field that EVERYONE other than the BMWs thought was uneven.

A couple of things are interesting to me. Only a couple of BMW guys even bother to post here (and I do appredciate that). Most of you appear to be participating in a nasty, unfair, rude, and downright whiny conversation on the BMW board. Frankly, I think the guys there are there because they don&#39;t want to face the facts that are posted here.

So be it.

I want to race with BMWs. I think they should be in ITS. I think that they should be one of if not the best car to have. But the attitudes displayed here, and even more so on the BMW board -- hell, take your cars and go race BMW CCA. ITS with RX7s, GSRs, 240zs, 240sxs and the newly lightened 944s sure looks good to me.

[dj10]

Dj, sorry, but Greg is right. As a driver of a "challenged" ITS car, I had hoped you guys would be reigned in some, but totally disagreed with the SIR and I had some sympathy for you.

However, the responses I have seen here by the BMW "crowd" (more on that in a minute, since it is only a few of you) really turned me off to you guys. This is not some big Andy B. led conspiracy to screw BMWs. It was a legitimate attempt to fix a playing field that EVERYONE other than the BMWs thought was uneven.

A couple of things are interesting to me. Only a couple of BMW guys even bother to post here (and I do appredciate that). Most of you appear to be participating in a nasty, unfair, rude, and downright whiny conversation on the BMW board. Frankly, I think the guys there are there because they don&#39;t want to face the facts that are posted here.

So be it.

I want to race with BMWs. I think they should be in ITS. I think that they should be one of if not the best car to have. But the attitudes displayed here, and even more so on the BMW board -- hell, take your cars and go race BMW CCA. ITS with RX7s, GSRs, 240zs, 240sxs and the newly lightened 944s sure looks good to me.
[/b]

I&#39;d really like to know what the HELL you are talking about!!!!!!????????
Let&#39;s clear some s*** up! 1st of all I don&#39;t even post on the BMW board!!!! I have read some of the shi* on the board and it sickens me! I am an adult and I don&#39;t attack attack anyone unless they truly deserve it or like now, like you attacking me and I&#39;ve never attacked anyone on this board including AB or anyone else. I expect the same couresty and now I&#39;m pissed that Grey Amy and you are from what I see attacking me for what? Being sarcarstic? What do you expect? Forcing me to buy UNTESTED & UNPROVED BS! Making me spend more money? Isn&#39;t racing expensive enought? Look at Greg&#39;s and read your post and tell me who is being rude and for what? You better read my posts again and this time DON&#39;T TAKE THEM OUT OF CONTEXT!
So I don&#39;t know who the hell you ARE talking about, but it better not be me!
One last thing! The way you and Amy have reacted make&#39;s you no better than some of the jerks on the BMW board, congrats you HAVE lowered yourselves. This site is for constructive dialog not for attacking anyone. Grow up!

[JeffYoung]

DJ, I will apologize to you for this reason -- my post was meant to apply to the BMW racer crowd as a whole, not any single individual. It was not a personal attack on you, or your posting.

But Greg is right. This whole episode has just made me, and a lot of other ITS drivers, just think we&#39;d be better off without the 325 in ITS. I truly didn&#39;t use to think that way, and enjoyed racing with (and on rare occasions actually racing WITH) the E36. You guys have some legitimate beefs with teh SIR, in my view. But the problem is more basic than that. None of you seem to recognize that the car is too light for its hp and capabilities.

Enough said, moving on. I wish you guys had gotten 300 lbs weight, but honestly, it looks to me like we would have seen the same level of bitching.

[Doc Bro]

The interesting thing is that both sides have very legitimate points but that is where the similarity ends:

1. The e36 had not gone through "the process" and that is unarguable....

2. That fact is also not Andy or Jake or anyone else&#39;s fault.

Can we get agreement on these two points?


Next,

The SCCA and the ITAC have tried in some way to level the playing field......agreed?

They propsed several options and the CRB went with the SIR.....agreed?

All parties involoved were in a system of checks and balances, meaning it was a peer reviewed process and not a unilateral decision. Information was collected for/against adjustment of the e36......agreed?

The e36 boys feel there is a conspiracy or that they are funding the SCCA&#39;s experiment....agreed?


The crux of the matter is that there is no e36 guys that can back up there stance with facts yet- only conjecture.....and that is where most of us see a problem with how you guys are going about it. You will not get a sympathetic ear with this playbook. Just look at the facts and reverse the roles.....it&#39;s right there in front of you.

Pitch in, team up and PROVE that it was a mistake. Instead you&#39;re whining and letting Andy do they dyno work for you. How cowardly. You (generically) attack him and he still goes to bat for you to make sure they (ITAC/CR got it right!!

WOW.

If he&#39;s right there should be a whole bunch of apologies and atta boy&#39;s.

Let&#39;s not forget this is a volunteer thing. Being lambasted for a hobby stinks.

R


And YES I DRIVE A BMW!!

[dj10]

DJ, I will apologize to you for this reason -- my post was meant to apply to the BMW racer crowd as a whole, not any single individual. It was not a personal attack on you, or your posting.

But Greg is right. This whole episode has just made me, and a lot of other ITS drivers, just think we&#39;d be better off without the 325 in ITS. I truly didn&#39;t use to think that way, and enjoyed racing with (and on rare occasions actually racing WITH) the E36. You guys have some legitimate beefs with teh SIR, in my view. But the problem is more basic than that. None of you seem to recognize that the car is too light for its hp and capabilities.

Enough said, moving on. I wish you guys had gotten 300 lbs weight, but honestly, it looks to me like we would have seen the same level of bitching.
[/b]

Jeff,
These are your opinions and does not reflect the classifications or opinions of the SCCA. If you want us out, vote us out. NASA lookin better all the time with the attitudes I see here! You say we have legitmate beefs but you don&#39;t have the patience for us to work them out. In fact it sounds like you and Amy would throw us out.
If the CRB wants me to stick a bananna in my intake I&#39;d do it. Just be sure it won&#39;t screw anything up. Is this too much to ask?