Rules question on wheel spacers ?????

[Fastfred92]

Given that wheel spacers are legal and pretty much unlimited in design etc. what is everyones take on a spacer that also changes the bolt pattern so that a wider variety of wheels fit the car ???????????

[Andy Bettencourt]

Given that wheel spacers are legal and pretty much unlimited in design etc. what is everyones take on a spacer that also changes the bolt pattern so that a wider variety of wheels fit the car ??????????? [/b]

Interesting. We may end up getting into a SB/piston debate here but here is my read:

The listing for spacers is in the section where allowing a track change is detailed (7.a.3 page 11 ITCS). It does not say that spacers are 'free', nor does it say anywhere that you can change your bolt pattern. To me, the intent is clear that the use of spacers may be used to facilitate the allowance of the rule the wording is in...track increase.


But....resonable people have disagreed here before...
AB

[dickita15]

From the glossary: Wheel spacer – A plate of unspecified thickness or material which is mounted between the road wheel and hub to increase the distance from the inside of the wheel and hub. Thereby increasing track.

I think if the piece were anything other than a simple plate it would be illegal.

[jhooten]

I asked this very question of the tech inspector at annual last year. His take was that the wheel adapters would be legal. I have not yet written to the puzzle palace in Topeaka for a formal ruling in writting.

[erlrich]

I would also submit that you're now talking about an adapter, not a spacer. Is there anything in the rules about wheel adapters?

[JamesB]

Well as mentioned above, I see nothing in the rules allowing for the change in bolt pattern. So it would be illegal.

[Knestis]

Careful here...

"Track may be changed to accommodate larger tires,
provided that there is safe tire/fender/chassis clearance
under all conditions of steer, bump, and rebound. Wheel
spacers are permitted."

For the literalists out there, track may be changed for a specific stated purpose - to accommodate larger tires. Can I increase track to increase grip, if I don't have tire clearance issues, or more than necessary to resolve them?

And don't go telling me that "Wheel spacers are permitted" is a separate rule, allowing anything we want. If that allowance doesn't modify/clarify the track-change rule, what WOULD we be allowed, to change track? Offset bushings are specifically allowed elsewhere but it's dangerous to suggest that we can do anything we want to increase track, which would be a logical outcome of a wheel spacer allowance without the purpose that seems to be written into the rule...

K

[RSTPerformance]

Is it legal??? good healthy debate....

Does it give you a performance advantage??? NO...

You could get (or have wheels made) with the correct bolt pattern. All you are doing is creating a creative way of saving money. I don't think that you would get protested on something as silly as this, but who knows...

Raymond "Can someone show me the performance advantage?" Blethen

[Bildon]

Perhaps more importantly, I've never seen an adapter I would race on. Snap!

[Andy Bettencourt]

See any advantage to going from 4-lugs to 5?

Here is a real stupid example:

Two guys having the same budget - one 'saves' money by doing an illegal mod thereby having the 'extra' money to add something that DOES have a performance impact. Stupid really but...

...performance advantage is irrelevant. This is a legality question. Look at it from an SOM perspective.

AB

[RSTPerformance]

Andy-

Looking at it from my SOM perspective.... Probably illigal, debate away...

Looking at it from my compeditor perspective... I am not going to wory if someone shows up with some "cool wheels" that have a different bolt patter (even if they beat me). Even if his/her friend gave them the wheels and he/she had to go spend the extra money on the converting spacers. To me he/she has not gained anything I couldn't have done legaly... all he/she has is a cool looking car that my girlfriend might like better than mine

Now as for me being suspect to other potentialy "overlooked" items on the car that could have given him an advantage to beat me... You bet I will be suspect, but the wheel spacers would not be my angle in a protest.


Raymond "I like my wheels" Blethen

[Bildon]

Raymond, now really, what are we going to do about that photo in your sig? <_<
That&#39;s the lowest resolution photo I&#39;ve ever seen. Dont you have another?
Send me one you liek and I&#39;ll fix it up for you :P

Or maybe just use this one!

[JamesB]

As Bill said. Beyond feeling its illegal, I don&#39;t know of a spacer I would trust to hold out witht he forces and heat racing puts on them. I have seen them form hairline cracks from just abuse in the tuner scene.

As for the money aspect of it. I actually stick with oem wheels to save money.

[RSTPerformance]

Hows the new sig??? A bit big??? Wowser... It updates all the past sigs...

[Fastfred92]

The example I will use is a Porsche 914 that has the old VW 4x130 bolt pattern. It is not a matter of cool wheels but more a question of any wheels at all. Converting to 5x5 or 5x130 gives many more wheel choices and I am quite sure I could build some spacer / adaptors I would race on.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The example I will use is a Porsche 914 that has the old VW 4x130 bolt pattern. It is not a matter of cool wheels but more a question of any wheels at all. Converting to 5x5 or 5x130 gives many more wheel choices and I am quite sure I could build some spacer / adaptors I would race on. [/b]

Regardless of your application, I think it has been pointed out that spacers are not &#39;unlimited&#39; as their definition is in the Glossary. Add to that, the only approved use of them is to increase track, I think any &#39;adapter&#39; that did something different is clearly outside the rules.

And I think that was your original question.

AB

[Fastfred92]

Just to add to the debate here is the response I got from Jeremy @ SCCA a couple years back

-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Alphin [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 10:17 AM
To: Jeremy Thoennes
Subject: IT question

Jeremy

Could I use a wheel spacer, in IT, that changes wheel bolt pattern ( from 4 lug to 5 ) to make use of more available wheels?


Fred,
Since section 17.1.4.D.7.a.3 allows you to use a wheel spacer, and section 7.a.5 allows any wheel stud, bolt, or nut, I believe you could use a spacer that changes the bolt pattern.

-Jeremy

[Greg Amy]

I&#39;d have to agree with Jeremy. There&#39;s no limitations on the design of the spacer other than the resultant fender/vertical clearance. Further, there&#39;s no limit on wheel studs. So, as long as it meets all other rules, I see it as legal.

WHY you&#39;d want to do it is another argument...

[lateapex911]

Hey, Mr Bushing, thats an interesting take. The stud rule allows replacement, but not movement...

What about function? Isn&#39;t getting the lugs closer to the center, theoretically at least, and advantage in inertia??

I can&#39;t see changing the bolt pattern as being ok, but lets keep diggin!

(I&#39;m ignoring the obvious dumbness of the idea too...)

[Andy Bettencourt]

There&#39;s no limitations on the design of the spacer other than the resultant fender/vertical clearance. [/b]

I disagree.

"Wheel spacers may be added." Not "Wheel spacers are free" or "Wheel spacers are unlimited"...

Then wheel spacers are defined for you in case you have never seen or heard of one...

"Wheel spacer – A plate of unspecified thickness or material which is mounted between the road wheel and hub to increase the distance from the inside of the wheel and hub. Thereby increasing track."

I see no provision for the addition of lugs, the change of bolt pattern, etc.

BUT...I read the rules conservatively...and I fear that will be the downfall to my Miata project...

AB