The E36 solution.

[Ron Earp]

Another class, naturally, is a good idea - being one of the big champions of that.

But, the poll is slightly skewed. By offering a higher class as a choice it quite naturally draws some votes off that would have probably gone for weight and no restrictor. Essentially pulling some "IT purists" away with another class, but the higher class isn't essential to the debate.

Even so, the poll shows the vast majority prefer weight and I would bet if the higher class option were removed we'd see an even larger majority voting for 3150lbs.

Ron

[ed325its]

I vote to shut this poll down and move on!!!

I hear many of you,some of which may be ITAC members, complaining about whining by the BMW drivers, making derogatory remarks about the discussion and individual posters, and grouping us all together. It appears that many of those involved in the process just enjoy stirring the pot and keeping the issue hot and contested.

Give it up and move on!

[mlytle]

it is kind of funny that you and the BMW guys both disagree with SIRs but you think they got of easy and they think they are getting screwed.


[/b]

um no. most of us bmw guys agree with the sirs. we just are not happy with the lack of testing and the poor process used to implement them. (and i don't mean the itac classification process, i mean the implementation process (or lack therof) in putting them on one make of car on two weeks notice with zero testing to see if they really work.)

[Bill Miller]

um no. most of us bmw guys agree with the sirs. we just are not happy with the lack of testing and the poor process used to implement them. (and i don't mean the itac classification process, i mean the implementation process (or lack therof) in putting them on one make of car on two weeks notice with zero testing to see if they really work.)
[/b]

So I guess that means you would rather have 300# of lead.

[dj10]

um no. most of us bmw guys agree with the sirs. we just are not happy with the lack of testing and the poor process used to implement them. (and i don't mean the itac classification process, i mean the implementation process (or lack therof) in putting them on one make of car on two weeks notice with zero testing to see if they really work.)
[/b]

EXACTLY! Scca please send money and I get you real test results.

[Knestis]

To be fair, I can totally see how e36 entrants could be pissed about the process and short notice, even if they favor this solution over a sack of bricks on the passenger floor. It wasn't very elegantly timed but I guess the flip side is that too much notice invites second guessing and lobbying. It's a tough deal for the decision makers. I'm confident that the current ITAC is working in good faith, even if i have some qualms about why/how the CRB made the SIR decision, and about the impact of the move down the road...

K

[Fastfred92]

So I guess that means you would rather have 300# of lead.
[/b]

I guess it is all clear to me now, at the ARRC( we assume we have some of the best prepared IT cars around running what amounts to IT runoffs ) we had the dreaded sunbelt BMW on pole by a amazing 4/100 second over what I can also assume is a well prepped RX7, then in the race we had the hometown villian and or hero in his dreaded BMW whip up on the others and win with a fastest lap a whopping 4/10 second faster than the poor RX guys fastest lap. In fact in the top 5 we had BMW 1st and 3rd, RX7 2nd and 5th and old Z car 4th and all these guys fastes laps were within 1 whole second of one another....... I am glad these things are not based on race results but rather a "process" because the need for 300lbs of lead is very clear!

I say a round of SIR's for everyone !!!!!!

[Catch22]

I guess it is all clear to me now, at the ARRC( we assume we have some of the best prepared IT cars around running what amounts to IT runoffs ) we had the dreaded sunbelt BMW on pole by a amazing 4/100 second over what I can also assume is a well prepped RX7, then in the race we had the hometown villian and or hero in his dreaded BMW whip up on the others and win with a fastest lap a whopping 4/10 second faster than the poor RX guys fastest lap. In fact in the top 5 we had BMW 1st and 3rd, RX7 2nd and 5th and old Z car 4th and all these guys fastes laps were within 1 whole second of one another....... I am glad these things are not based on race results but rather a "process" because the need for 300lbs of lead is very clear!

I say a round of SIR's for everyone !!!!!!
[/b]

This is exactly why you can't use results for this process.
That dreaded orange BMW was on the new Hoosier and hadn't had any testing before that race. The handling was off. This info comes directly from that team.
So... I would counter your argument by stating that the handling was off and he STILL whipped everyone's ass. Not to mention that he lead the race from green to checkered, and could put distance on that RX7 at will whenever it got too close.

What all this means is that now, if your E36 is off or underprepared, you can't still win anyway.

Welcome to everyone elses world.

[Fastfred92]

This is exactly why you can't use results for this process.
That dreaded orange BMW was on the new Hoosier and hadn't had any testing before that race. The handling was off. This info comes directly from that team.
So... I would counter your argument by stating that the handling was off and he STILL whipped everyone's ass. Not to mention that he lead the race from green to checkered, and could put distance on that RX7 at will whenever it got too close.

What all this means is that now, if your E36 is off or underprepared, you can't still win anyway.

Welcome to everyone elses world.
[/b]

Catch
with all due repect if you buy what a team or driver tells you??? Chet ran these times all year long at his home track with THE most developed BMW in the country ( his RX7 rival was new to Road Atlanta)... I guess you will belive that with the 300 lbs he still would have won....

[zracre]

Ok this is silly...make the BMW 3150, lose the SIR and take the crazy lead out of the others! The prelude and GSR are waaaay overweight with the torque numbers they produce (maybe not hp) and they are FWD. That would make more people happy and more class parity. I see much weight off of some other deserving cars, but many are not on the list, but c'mon...the SIR was implemented too quickly without prior adjustments to the others in the class (see ITA). remember Club Racing not GT and Touring! I think SCCA should nip this thing before it snowballs bigtime and simplify the whole process now.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Catch
with all due repect if you buy what a team or driver tells you??? Chet ran these times all year long at his home track with THE most developed BMW in the country ( his RX7 rival was new to Road Atlanta)... I guess you will belive that with the 300 lbs he still would have won....
[/b]

Of course he wouldn't have had any restrictor plate at that weight...I feel ike a lot of people are missing that.

How about this info:

I watched Rob's race tape from the ARRC race, and I'm not sure that the RX-7 is quite competitive with the BMW... It made me frustrated just watching the tape, Rob would push everything possible out of that 7, only to get to the back straight and watch the BMW pull 5-10 car lengths on him! Lap after Lap after Lap. It was definitely the closest thing I've seen to a 7 keeping up with the BMW though, and I think I may just have to give the nod to Rob's driving for making that happen... Only 19 years old and already climbing the ranks. Rob, you should make that tape available to the ITAC... 2 great drivers (Chet HAS to be one of the best at Road Atlanta), and 2 top level cars. The tape should show exactly how they compare to each other within the current rules/specs. - Joe Moser[/b]

It would seem to make sense on a few fronts as the info comes in:

1. No testing on the new Hoosier slowed him in the turns
2. If he was interested in 'protecting' BMW turf, he would have kept that info quiet
3. Plenty of power allowed him to pull away per 1st hand account
4. The virtual dead heat in Q1 was when Huffmaster was tagged to his bumper
5. Chet's Q2 time was the same as Q1 as almost everyone elses was the same or better than Q1 - except Huffmaster who went almost a full second slower when not in the draft (but still good enough for the 2nd best Q2 time)

And a counterpoint by Marshall:

any lead the bmw had on the back straight was completely erased by the mazda by the time they got to turn 5. i could rewrite your para to show the bmw driver being frustrated by the superior handling of the mazda. [/b]

There are so many variables to take into account. Huffmaster might have been slowed by not being in the draft - or he might have been trying a new set-up that didn't work. Maybe his tires were falling off...WHO KNOWS? The issue is that you can't take this info as gospel until you know every little bit of info. It can be used for trending, but not for pure data.

On edit: I fully believe Chet's car to be 100% legal. Any car running for a win at the ARRC should expect a teardown.

[kthomas]

You guys have to quit using Chet as a data point. He is not like the others.

[e36its]

So I guess that means you would rather have 300# of lead.[/b]

I'm having some trouble following this line of reasoning... why is "do you want weight?" always the answer to questions about testing or the implementation timeframe?

tom

[Joe Harlan]

You guys have to quit using Chet as a data point. He is not like the others.
[/b]

How So?

[seckerich]

You guys have to quit using Chet as a data point. He is not like the others.
[/b]

Thats true--he is GOD in your eyes!! He is also smart enough to back off with a lead and do just enough to win. I have seen it first hand plenty and it is about time the field gets level. So why is it the 4 door only runs when there is a teardown and not the 2 door rocket?? It was sure available at VIR with York there and No Larry at the ARRC to drive it. I gave up more than Huffmaster at VIR to that car and was 2 seconds back on the grand course. Right on the bumper until Oak Tree until it walks away--And yes I have Video. Chet is a good driver and Sunbelt spends tons of time on those cars--but it's not all driver. If you can't use those cars as a benchmark--they are illegal--period.

[kthomas]

Thats true--he is GOD in your eyes!! He is also smart enough to back off with a lead and do just enough to win. I have seen it first hand plenty and it is about time the field gets level. So why is it the 4 door only runs when there is a teardown and not the 2 door rocket?? It was sure available at VIR with York there and No Larry at the ARRC to drive it. I gave up more than Huffmaster at VIR to that car and was 2 seconds back on the grand course. Right on the bumper until Oak Tree until it walks away--And yes I have Video. Chet is a good driver and Sunbelt spends tons of time on those cars--but it's not all driver. If you can't use those cars as a benchmark--they are illegal--period.
[/b]

The 2 door is Larry's car, not Chet's, and Larry hasn't raced it lately because he's been busy.

He is smart enough to back off when he can to conserve tires. The BMW will fry them if you run 20 laps at RA full bore.

You're right it's not ALL Chet- but he is the best driver, with the best engine program, with the best chassis engineer, and pretty decent preparation. At his home track. That combination is going to win the ARRC, like it did twice with a 240Z. To "level" the playing field based on that race is to screw everybody else in an E36.

[Joe Harlan]

The 2 door is Larry's car, not Chet's, and Larry hasn't raced it lately because he's been busy.

He is smart enough to back off when he can to conserve tires. The BMW will fry them if you run 20 laps at RA full bore.

You're right it's not ALL Chet- but he is the best driver, with the best engine program, with the best chassis engineer, and pretty decent preparation. At his home track. That combination is going to win the ARRC, like it did twice with a 240Z. To "level" the playing field based on that race is to screw everybody else in an E36.
[/b]

Well based on that I disagree. But since the effort to equalize is not based on one driver or one car i don't see it as a big issue.

If Chet has the best prepped and best driven car then he should still kick butt even after the SIR deal is done. He just won't have the ability to conserve and save those tires. Just like the guys that are chasing him don't get that option. Thanks for even more proof that the car needed looked at...

[gpeluso]

JOE,
THINK YOU SHOULD LOOK AT A SPEC SERIES IF YOU WANT THINGS TO BE EQUAL, BUT IT NEEDS TO BE EQUAL ALL THE WAY AROUND. DIFFERENT CARS HAVE DIFFERENT STRENGTHS. WE COULD ARGUE THAT AN RX7 HAS A TIRE ADVANTAGE, WHY .......THE BMW AND RX7 BOTH RUN 225 TIRES......THE RX7 IS LIGHTER AND THEREFORE WOULD BE EASIER ON TIRES..........HEY TIRES ARE VERY IMPORTANT.......BRAKING WILL NOW CHANGE ALSO IF EVEN MORE WEIGHT IS ADDED........LOOKS LIKE YOUR NOT EVEN FROM THE EAST WHERE MOST OF THE HEAT IS COMING FROM OVER CLOSE COMPETITION IN 2005 BETWEEN THE TWO MODELS. PLEASE SOMEONE MAKE A LIST OF TRACK RECORDS.....THIS CRAP ABOUT NOT USING RESULTS IS INSANE. HP TO WEIGHT RATIO IS ONLY ONE ASPECT OF A CARS PERFORMANCE. THERE ARE MANY MORE THAT ARE NOT BEING TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION. I HAVE A FEELING WEATHER CONDITIONS MAY FAVOR ONE MODEL TO ANOTHER ALSO(SPEAKING ABOUT HEAT,RAIN, COLD) RESULTS FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY SHOW THE EQUALITY IS THERE.

GREG

Well based on that I disagree. But since the effort to equalize is not based on one driver or one car i don't see it as a big issue.

If Chet has the best prepped and best driven car then he should still kick butt even after the SIR deal is done. He just won't have the ability to conserve and save those tires. Just like the guys that are chasing him don't get that option. Thanks for even more proof that the car needed looked at...
[/b]

[MikeBlaszczak]

Well, I voted for another class above ITS.
Why?

Well, as has been discussed here before, it needs to happen sooner or later. Cars that have been developed in the past 10 years have in general grown in HP and improved in design. [/b]

Yeah, I think that's the way to go. Or, to classify other, older cars, down as the newer cars fill up the highest class.

[Matt Rowe]

JOE,
THINK YOU SHOULD LOOK AT A SPEC SERIES IF YOU WANT THINGS TO BE EQUAL, BUT IT NEEDS TO BE EQUAL ALL THE WAY AROUND. DIFFERENT CARS HAVE DIFFERENT STRENGTHS. WE COULD ARGUE THAT AN RX7 HAS A TIRE ADVANTAGE, WHY .......THE BMW AND RX7 BOTH RUN 225 TIRES......THE RX7 IS LIGHTER AND THEREFORE WOULD BE EASIER ON TIRES..........HEY TIRES ARE VERY IMPORTANT.......BRAKING WILL NOW CHANGE ALSO IF EVEN MORE WEIGHT IS ADDED........LOOKS LIKE YOUR NOT EVEN FROM THE EAST WHERE MOST OF THE HEAT IS COMING FROM OVER CLOSE COMPETITION IN 2005 BETWEEN THE TWO MODELS. PLEASE SOMEONE MAKE A LIST OF TRACK RECORDS.....THIS CRAP ABOUT NOT USING RESULTS IS INSANE. HP TO WEIGHT RATIO IS ONLY ONE ASPECT OF A CARS PERFORMANCE. THERE ARE MANY MORE THAT ARE NOT BEING TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION. I HAVE A FEELING WEATHER CONDITIONS MAY FAVOR ONE MODEL TO ANOTHER ALSO(SPEAKING ABOUT HEAT,RAIN, COLD) RESULTS FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY SHOW THE EQUALITY IS THERE.

GREG
[/b]

As has been stated several times before. Results are FAR to subjective. To make a true comparison you would have to know variables that effect level of prep such as, header development, intake devel, tuning, ECU (or carb), shock devel, extent of cage work, weight as raced, ballast needed to make race weight, brake devel, front spoiler. All of those things and a hundred more that go into getting everything out of a car. Oh and then you have to factor in driver skill, luck, the other competition in the field, weather . . . and oh yeah, was the car even legal. None of this is on the results sheets.

In case you haven't gotten the point by now, there is no way anyone can accurately account for all of that, even if it was known. The process that is being used now and for the past few years strictly looks at the performance potential of every car the same way. It's not guaranteed to make everyone equal, but it's a huge improvement over where we were and far better than where classes like Prod are that do try to use race data to equalize classifications.

Vive la process!