The E36 solution.

[lateapex911]

OK, so the recent changes to the class structure have been received, in the big picture, rather well. Amazingly well, when you consider the number of changes.

Except for a select group, the BMW E36 owners, who have been, lets say, rather vocal in their ...ummm...disagreement.

So, lets just, for the sake of education, run a poll.

Unlike most polls, your comments are welcome, and post your class and car if you would like. For the sake of this poll, lets assume that there IS an issue with the car and it's fit in the ITS class.

(Note: to all you poll and policy guys out there, I have no intentions of being scientific and generating results that will be used by policy makers. I just want to use it as a way of generating ideas and getting discussions going on a new tack.)

Here are the options:
(It apears I can not edit the wording in the actual poll, please use the wording in #5 below instead., thanks....)
To solve the problem in the balance of ITS, I think:

1- The BMW E36 should be given a flat plate restrictor to limit power to that appropriate for the ITS class.

2- The BMW E36 should be given A Single Inlet Restrictor to limit power to that appropriate for the ITS class.

3- The BMW E36 should be given additional weight for a total of 3150 to acheive parity with the rest of the ITS class.

4- The BMW E36 should be moved to a higher class, at a weight of approximately 2600 pounds (for discussion purposes only), and have all restrictors removed. The class would be populated with similar cars of roughly equivilent power to weight ratios, with adders/ subtractors for outstanding or detracting physical characteristics.

5- The E36 should be given an SIR, and the entire ITS class should be required to run the same SIR, sized for each individual model, regardless of the need for one.

Thats it, post your choice, and your reasons.

[Joe Harlan]

OK, so the recent changes to the class structure have been received, in the big picture, rather well. Amazingly well, when you consider the number of changes.

Except for a select group, the BMW E36 owners, who have been, lets say, rather vocal in their ...ummm...disagreement.

So, lets just, for the sake of education, run a poll.

Unlike most polls, your comments are welcome, and post your class and car if you would like. For the sake of this poll, lets assume that there IS an issue with the car and it's fit in the ITS class.

(Note: to all you poll and policy guys out there, I have no intentions of being scientific and generating results that will be used by policy makers. I just want to use it as a way of generating ideas and getting discussions going on a new tack.)

Here are the options:

To solve the problem in the balance of ITS, I think:

1- The BMW E36 should be given a flat plate restrictor to limit power to that appropriate for the ITS class.

2- The BMW E36 should be given A Single Inlet Restrictor to limit power to that appropriate for the ITS class.

3- The BMW E36 should be given additional weight for a total of 3150 to acheive parity with the rest of the ITS class.

4- The BMW E36 should be moved to a higher class, at a weight of approximately 2600 pounds (for discussion purposes only), and have all restrictors removed. The class would be populated with similar cars of roughly equivilent power to weight ratios, with adders/ subtractors for outstanding or detracting physical characteristics.

5- The E36 should be given an SIR, and the entire ITS class should be required to run the same SIR, regardless of the need for one.

Thats it, post your choice, and your reasons.
[/b]

WHy even have this poll? It is a complete waste of time. The choice to go witht he SIR is a done deal. As an ITAC member I would expect you to get behind it help the members understand it and move on. There is a ton on mental masterbation going on around here and while it may be fun for some I think it is very distructive to the process. I have offered a half days service to anyone wanting to go to the dyno. I owuld also help to fab what ever we need for silicon boots to fit the SIR. Lets get behind this for better racing and the general health of the class and bag all these jerk off polls and could'da should'da deals. It done so lets get after making it work.

[mlytle]

and the last option is not valid. running the same sir on all cars is useless. an appropriately sized sir for each differnent car based on its weight is valid.

[Bill Miller]

and the last option is not valid. running the same sir on all cars is useless. an appropriately sized sir for each differnent car based on its weight is valid.
[/b]

I agree w/ you Marshall. If you're going to put an SIR on every car, it should be sized based on the expected hp for the car.

[lateapex911]

Joe, I was just trying to get a bigger picture, thats all.

Listen I have complete faith in the solution, but I always try to look at issues from other angles, in other lights. the reaction has been strong, so I thought I might get a different view on it, thats all.

Agreed on the last item, I actually wrote that eroniously...the point would have been to apply the same standards across the board, each car getting the proper SIR to match the desired output.

I will edit it ...as this is more of a discussion poll it won't invalidate results.

[Joe Harlan]

Joe, I was just trying to get a bigger picture, thats all.

Listen I have complete faith in the solution, but I always try to look at issues from other angles, in other lights. the reaction has been strong, so I thought I might get a different view on it, thats all.

Agreed on the last item, I actually wrote that eroniously...the point would have been to apply the same standards across the board, each car getting the proper SIR to match the desired output.

I will edit it ...as this is more of a discussion poll it won't invalidate results.
[/b]

Well Jake my issue is that this makes it look like there is some sort of a choice. The SIR deal is a done deal lets make it work. Having an ITAC member present it like there is a hope for a stay of execution make it drag on and on. We need to get behind this as a group and help everyone to transition with this thing into the future.

[Banzai240]

Well Jake my issue is that this makes it look like there is some sort of a choice. The SIR deal is a done deal lets make it work. Having an ITAC member present it like there is a hope for a stay of execution make it drag on and on. We need to get behind this as a group and help everyone to transition with this thing into the future.
[/b]

I have to agree with Joe here... There is only one option that the E36 drivers will understand and accept, and that would be to do nothing to their cars...

Our direction from this point forward, which has been approved by the CRB and the BoD, is to classify cars based on a wt/pwr scheme...

We've adjusted IT based on this, and it WILL work...

The SIR makes complete sense for this car... and in light of the bitching and complaining that E36 owners did over the prospect of gaining 300lbs... I would expect it to be a more palatable solution... No way to say the cars are "unsafe" because of the added weight... Still drive the same up to the cutoff point, etc...

However, whether they want to accept it or not, it's the way it's going to be done... The only other alternative, without resorting to de-classifying the car from ITS or moving it to a class that does not yet exist above ITS, is to add 300# to the car... That's it... I don't really see any point in arguing about this any further... The rest of IT has to live by this scheme... the E36 can as well...

Also... The idea of making EVERY car run and SIR is silly... (being polite by using that term... )... It's not necessary... There is not another car in ITS currently that makes this kind of power at this weight... We can and have adjusted most cars based on weight... The concern over adding 300lbs to the BMW is what prompted the move by the CRB to use the SIR...

Sorry that it costs whatever $$$ that it costs... but that's what is necessary to make this a fair fight again...

[Bill Miller]

The concern over adding 300lbs to the BMW is what prompted the move by the CRB to use the SIR...
[/b]

And what exactly is that concern Darin?

And Joe, enough w/ the 'ram it down their throat' approch. After all, this is our club. If the majority of people would rather see lead used than an SIR, I would think that the CRB should respond to that.

[JLawton]

Jake,
I was curious, I voted, cool idea. I'm not getting my shorts in a bunch over it......

I used to have an ITS car. It was a high end manufacturer. It was uncompetitive in ITS. So I sold it......

I'm all for holding judgement until we have at least a season behind us........

[zracre]

I agree with Bill....IT is regional and a big change like SIR seems overkill. The E36 would do fine at 3150 and I believe that would be the right step...not untested (on that car) technology. As I have said before this is NOT World Challenge, this is Club Racing. the cars are safe at 3150 3250 3350...they do fine on track days with full interiors/race tires/over the top mods with no brake upgrades/big fat passengers. So they are safe. adding lead is good enough for most classes, why use the biggest (regional and usually national) group of classes to experiment with a potentially expensive to develop and use item like the SIR?? It is going to scare people away from IT and think its wrong. My opinion.

[dickita15]

I agree with Bill....IT is regional and a big change like SIR seems overkill. [/b]

Evan
You could read that as IT is not as important to get right, but I am sure that is not what you meant. In out neck of the woods IT is the largest group and the best racing but there were problems with classing. If the SIR work as advertised this will make racing better in IT.

[Bill Miller]

Evan
You could read that as IT is not as important to get right, but I am sure that is not what you meant. In out neck of the woods IT is the largest group and the best racing but there were problems with classing. If the SIR work as advertised this will make racing better in IT.
[/b]

Wow Dick, that's some pretty serious spin. I'm not saying that because Evan agreed w/ me. I'm saying it because your comment comes across as "If you don't support the SIR, you don't want IT to be better." But, I'm sure that's not what you meant!

[Joe Harlan]

And what exactly is that concern Darin?

And Joe, enough w/ the 'ram it down their throat' approch. After all, this is our club. If the majority of people would rather see lead used than an SIR, I would think that the CRB should respond to that.
[/b]

Well Bill it's not the ram it down the troat deal. It is already done. You aren't going to change it with this poll. Thats my point. I personally don't care that your against it and would prefer to stick to the old ways of doing business. It is exactly that attitude that keeps our club from a future. And yes it is a club and I am a member of said club which also gives me a right to voice an opinion. The poll doesn't do anything other than create a false hope that there is an option. The other point is how many BMW folks are actually voting for weight here? Or is this shown popularity for weight just a vote against the change in philosophy by a group of people that don't like change of any kind.

[Bill Miller]

Well Bill it's not the ram it down the troat deal. It is already done. You aren't going to change it with this poll. Thats my point. I personally don't care that your against it and would prefer to stick to the old ways of doing business. It is exactly that attitude that keeps our club from a future. And yes it is a club and I am a member of said club which also gives me a right to voice an opinion. The poll doesn't do anything other than create a false hope that there is an option. The other point is how many BMW folks are actually voting for weight here? Or is this shown popularity for weight just a vote against the change in philosophy by a group of people that don't like change of any kind.
[/b]

Seems you're pretty good at spinning this thing too Joe. If you want weight instead of an SIR, it means you don't want change of any kind? That's a pretty big stretch, if you ask me. Could it just possibly be that people want everyone treated the same?

And it's your opinion that this poll is a 'false hope', and won't change anything. You may be right, it may not change anything. But on the other hand, it just may. There were plenty of people that tried to saddle SM w/ 'Regional Only', and that got thrown by the boards. I'm a firm believer in asking people what they want, and listening to the majority.

Don't get me wrong, I think SIR technology has a place in Club Racing. I just don't think this is the proper way to implement it. And, I think the way the rule is currently written, the design is too wide open. How many tech people are going to be able to enforce it, based on the way the rule is written? How the hell do you expect them to be able to determine what's legal and what's not? And what will be next, having the club spec only SIRs from Raetech? We don't even want to have that conversation.

[zracre]

I agree an adjustment is neccesary...just not this one. I bring alot of people to IT here in the SEDIV thru sports marketing and local advertising sponsorship...(I currently have 2 integras in my shop being built by newbies) they are constantly laughing at some of the rules...normal until they learn about class parity. I just think adding these things now is a bit premature. Adding a restrictor is definitely not within the scope of IT (SIR). The car should be tried at 3150, if that doesnt work then we exhausted all our options and should try new technology like the SIR. This is going to quell newcomers to IT as it complicates things to the point of why bother. I believe the car was heavier then lightened...then a restrictor was added. The car should have been looked at and had its specs redone with a clean sheet. If the car needs to weigh 3400# so be it...the current balance needs to be adjusted I just think this car went in too many directions. Yes this is a member run club so to be in the best interest of the majority of members, maybe a vote on what should be done if the rulesmakers come across a touchy subject like SIR? A web based vote nowadays would work as the Fastrack seems to be web based now. I appreciate all the hard work and time put into the process but maybe this is too fast...ok i guess thats .04 cents...

[Joe Harlan]

Seems you're pretty good at spinning this thing too Joe. If you want weight instead of an SIR, it means you don't want change of any kind? That's a pretty big stretch, if you ask me. Could it just possibly be that people want everyone treated the same?

And it's your opinion that this poll is a 'false hope', and won't change anything. You may be right, it may not change anything. But on the other hand, it just may. There were plenty of people that tried to saddle SM w/ 'Regional Only', and that got thrown by the boards. I'm a firm believer in asking people what they want, and listening to the majority.

Don't get me wrong, I think SIR technology has a place in Club Racing. I just don't think this is the proper way to implement it. And, I think the way the rule is currently written, the design is too wide open. How many tech people are going to be able to enforce it, based on the way the rule is written? How the hell do you expect them to be able to determine what's legal and what's not? And what will be next, having the club spec only SIRs from Raetech? We don't even want to have that conversation.
[/b]

OK Bill, Have it your way. I am done with these distructive go no where threads. I will still offer any assistance to anyone want help with their conversion. If you need to know where to find clamps silicone hoses ect. just E-mail me. I am not selling parts i am offer help finding stuff to help with the conversion.

And Bill as far as policing goes i bet they have a whole tech session at the convention on SIR technology...

As far as mandating a manufacture no I don't believe so. The right way to do it would be to run these through enterprises and let enterprises take bids on doing them. At least you would have some controll on them but I don't think any one is intersted in that move.

[Catch22]

Well, I voted for another class above ITS.
Why?

Well, as has been discussed here before, it needs to happen sooner or later. Cars that have been developed in the past 10 years have in general grown in HP and improved in design. This is the basis for the current difficulties in finding newer cars that will even fit in ITC and even ITB.
So, do you just shift everything down and obsolete the current ITC cars? Well, no. That wouldn't be fair at all. ITC isn't the biggest class out there, but there are still plenty of them and they are doing some great racing.

So, follow the times and add a class. This will suddenly open the door for newer cars, cars that have been IT orphans because they are deemed too fast for ITS (as the BMW *should* have been), and cars that are currently in ITS but carrying and ungodly amount of ballast like the Preludes (over 200lbs) and such.


Cars that might fit this class... Things with the potential for a little over 200whp in IT trim or damned close to it. Basically cars, that if the ITAC looked at them right now would either add over 200lbs of ballast for ITS or just not classify it at all.

E36 BMW
E30 BMW M3
Porsche 944S
Honda Prelude VTEC
Acura Inegra Type R
Honda Accord V6
Lexus IS 300

The list is potentially huge. Thats just what I came up with right off the top of my head.

[mlytle]

Joe, I was just trying to get a bigger picture, thats all.

Listen I have complete faith in the solution, but I always try to look at issues from other angles, in other lights. the reaction has been strong, so I thought I might get a different view on it, thats all.

Agreed on the last item, I actually wrote that eroniously...the point would have been to apply the same standards across the board, each car getting the proper SIR to match the desired output.

I will edit it ...as this is more of a discussion poll it won't invalidate results.
[/b]

noticed your edit jake. one additional comment. the last words of the option have a significant negative slant. "regardless of whether they need it". the point is that they ALL need it. an sir on every car caps the legal hp attainable by that car to what the itac/crb has deemed the proper hp for the cars weight and other charateristics. i has nothing to do with ultimate hp in the class or a perception of need. if everyone is running an sir and has a set weight, we are a little closer to having some sort of enforceable class parity.

[Fastfred92]

an sir on every car caps the legal hp attainable by that car to what the itac/crb has deemed the proper hp for the cars weight and other charateristics. i has nothing to do with ultimate hp in the class or a perception of need. if everyone is running an sir and has a set weight, we are a little closer to having some sort of enforceable class parity.
[/b]

I don't see how ( with the IT advent of SIR ) there could be any other way to do this fairly. Each car goes through the "process" and is assigned a minimum weight and a max hp to go along with that weight and a SIR to set the hp ceiling. Then every car has the same rule set and limitations to work with. Start in ITS then work your way down the IT ranks 1 year at a time. When a higher IT class is born SIR would be used to accomodate a greater range of higher hp cars in ITR or ITwhatever... If this "process" is largely about hp/lbs then make it so for everyone.

[dickita15]

Wow Dick, that's some pretty serious spin. I'm not saying that because Evan agreed w/ me. I'm saying it because your comment comes across as "If you don't support the SIR, you don't want IT to be better." But, I'm sure that's not what you meant!
[/b]

Hmm you are right Bill you could read my comments that way and that is not what I meant. I was pointing out that IT is important and deserves the best solution. but I do not imagine that Even meant to imply anything different in the statement I was responding to.

If the SIRs are as good as they say then it is the easiest cheapest solution to the problem.

you are not wrong when you say they are a gift.

it is kind of funny that you and the BMW guys both disagree with SIRs but you think they got of easy and they think they are getting screwed.

heck if they work can i have one and move to ITB.