adding weight

[gran racing]

Evan,

You're talking about a few different topics here. How to compete against other legal ITA cars and how to deal with possible illegal cars.

Let's assume all cars in ITA are legal. Before these changes begining last year, ITA was essentially spec Integra / CRX. Yawn.

adding weight to cars that have been there so long and taking silly amounts off of others seems like penalty time for people doing their homework.

What about the people who were there before the CRX / Integra misclassifications? How many RX7 and other cars were impacted? Weight being added to these two cars is a good thing! You can't honestly say that these two cars did not have a classification advantage. And it still one of the cars to have. From what I've talked with some of the very fast Integra drivers (with very well prepped cars), it won't hurt them much. Some were not even able to achieve the previous minimum weight.

Illegal cars. This is where I can understand your frustration assuming it is in fact true.

[zracre]

thats why you take weight off MR2's RX7's Protege's etc and add new cars...my point is that the rx7 was a tweener when it was introduced...the crx same...the teg same (but pretty much equal to crx)...let the older cars that cant reach the performance standard lose the weight and add newer cars. Dont penalize a car (and driver) that has been running for a dozen or so years. To me it is too many changes at once. My point is also that they do not use on track performance (race results) as a guage. If they did the 325e would not lose 200#!! If they did they would see that a large percentage of the SE tracks have a 325e as record holders there. They penalized the Accord a few years back and stuck it in ITA where it was a back marker even well developed and that was simply one change...which they had to undo after all the people went and built them and spent hard earned money and got POed. now they went and made lots of changes. Im all for change. Just not so many at once.

[Catch22]

Small correction Greg.

The ITA Integras are not VTEC. Just a plain old DOHC.
They are 1.8, you are 2.0, so you do get a Tq advantage. But I'd imagine both cars are about dead even in HP.
The one that folks think they can get over 150whp out of is the 3rd gen which now has to weight 2620. So even if they do get that kind of power, there is no p/w advantage.

Just clarifying things. You are transposing Hondas :P

I agree with you though.
lets take the above mentioned Integra and NX as a prime example.

Both cars have about the same HP
Both cars have about the same gearing
Both cars have about the same brakes

The NX has a slight torque advantage.
The Integra has a serious suspension advantage

It makes sense for the Integra to weigh a little more.

The only car that frightens me after this whole adjustment shakeout is the 1.8 Miata. No one has really done a killer car yet, but if someone gets the relative gains out of an ITA model that the top SM guys have seen in the 1.6 cars, there will be trouble in ITA land.
But, the Miata is aero hampered, so we'll see. I have full confidence that the Miata, IF dominant, will be "fixed" by our friendly neighborhood ITAC.

Scott, still looking for a CRX donut spare and lead plates, and being perfectly OK with it.

[DavidM]

Originally posted by Catch22@Jan 25 2006, 04:55 PM
Small correction Greg.

The ITA Integras are not VTEC. Just a plain old DOHC.
They are 1.8, you are 2.0, so you do get a Tq advantage. But I'd imagine both cars are about dead even in HP.
The one that folks think they can get over 150whp out of is the 3rd gen which now has to weight 2620. So even if they do get that kind of power, there is no p/w advantage.

Just clarifying things. You are transposing Hondas :P

I agree with you though.
lets take the above mentioned Integra and NX as a prime example.

Both cars have about the same HP
Both cars have about the same gearing
Both cars have about the same brakes

The NX has a slight torque advantage.
The Integra has a serious suspension advantage

It makes sense for the Integra to weigh a little more.

The only car that frightens me after this whole adjustment shakeout is the 1.8 Miata. No one has really done a killer car yet, but if someone gets the relative gains out of an ITA model that the top SM guys have seen in the 1.6 cars, there will be trouble in ITA land.
But, the Miata is aero hampered, so we'll see. I have full confidence that the Miata, IF dominant, will be "fixed" by our friendly neighborhood ITAC.

Scott, still looking for a CRX donut spare and lead plates, and being perfectly OK with it.

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Hmmm...So how'd I wind up at 2630? I put similar horsepower to the ground. It's a Rebello'ish (built by an ex Rebello guy I believe) motor so it's at or near its max. It's a 2.4L so I probably get more torque out of it, but run out of revs sooner. These three cars (240sx, Integra, NX2000) seem pretty equal horsepower wise yet all three have different weights. What's the differentiator? I'm not bitching, just trying to figure out where the differences lie. I can't drive for crap at the moment, anyways, but I'd like to understand the competition.

David

[Catch22]

Originally posted by DavidM@Jan 25 2006, 06:28 PM
Hmmm...So how'd I wind up at 2630? I put similar horsepower to the ground. It's a Rebello'ish (built by an ex Rebello guy I believe) motor so it's at or near its max. It's a 2.4L so I probably get more torque out of it, but run out of revs sooner. These three cars (240sx, Integra, NX2000) seem pretty equal horsepower wise yet all three have different weights. What's the differentiator? I'm not bitching, just trying to figure out where the differences lie. I can't drive for crap at the moment, anyways, but I'd like to understand the competition.

David

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My guess is that two factors added that weight.
Displacement.
Rear Wheel Drive.

What do your brakes look like? Compare the listed sizes to those of the Integra and NX.
Also look at your gearing. The Integra has a crappy 5th gear.

[Greg Amy]

Definitely rear-wheel drive. I can't imagine anyone successfully arguing that FWD is anything but a detriment except in rain...

Corrections noted, Scott...! 'Cept I still think you're light on the power number... - GA

[Catch22]

And oh yeah... I don't pretend to be an expert on the 325e BMW, but I've been told by several people who DO know alot about those cars that they are complete Dogs. They won't rev at all. Kind of like driving a deisel truck.

The other thing I know about that car is that its very easy to bolt 325i parts to it and make big power changes. A buddy of mine and I researched this for a GRM $2006 Challenge project idea last year.

I don't know this person and I've never seen this car. But if he's got all those track records, is running with ITS cars, is turning 7000rpms, and was doing this at the old weight... I'd bet its got a 325is head on it.

[lateapex911]

Just to add my 2 cents..

The Tegs are noted to be very strong, and the math is what made to listing not the results.

But, look aroaund..the results are STRONG too!

The Tegs are making 155, no doubt.

Evan, I hear what yu are saying about taking weight OFF cars, but there are two issues.

1- It can't be done on certain cars. My 7 for example...I MIGHT get the weight off, but honestly, it won't help 100 pounds worth, because it will all come from the wrong areas, and the distribution will be worse. Other cars just flat can't take much more off. And changing rules, like allowing plastic windows is not in the class philosophy, and is a bad idea anyway, as EVERYONE would have to do it, and those who are already making weight would just ballast up...where they wanted to.

2- The 7 was never a tweener car. Until the CRX was added and exceeded expectations. Then the ECU rule was changed, and the CRX loved that! So other cars were added to "cover' the CRX. Which just hurt ALL the cars in the class. Welcome to the back, MR2 driver. Last place? Here you are Fiero pilot. And so on.

3- Removing weight is far more expensive than adding it.

OK, thats one more than I said.

In the end, bringing the top cars back a bit, and trying to help the bottom feeders makes more sense.

The BMW you speak of needs a SERIOUS look. There is NO way that car should be as fast as he is. The records are very likely bogus, and the penalties should be severe, IF what you say is true. Assuming he has had other fast cars run at the same tracks. Something is VERY amiss. 7K on the tach? They done blow up at that point. I have one, i done blowed it up...I know, LOL!

Don't let this get you. I fully expect Tegs and CRXs to be battleing for wins, but with NX2000s, Neons, Miatas, and maybe even an RX-7 or MR2. Really...it will all be OK.

[Hracer]

Fun discussion to read! All I can say is that having seen the on track speed of an ITA NX vs the mostly Honda competition last year, I can understand Greg’s optimism towards these changes. And at the same time, being in the same boat as Evan and the other Honda drivers who are now looking for any good sales on 110+ lbs of lead, I understand this point of view as well.

To continue on this fun integra vs nissan futile discussion, here's my contribution. For a long time now, I've learned to throw dyno HP #s I see posted on the internet out the door. Assuming they are true, they are extremely relative - from foremost the type of dyno used to, to the conditions, and to the calibrations of the dyno - to be of any use. What doesn't lie however is straight line speed out on the track. Going by this, there is no way imo that a 2nd gen ITA integra B18 would put out as much power as an equally well built 2.0L SR20DE on the same dyno, on the same day. However perhaps the heavier 2630 lbs DC (3rd gen) integra could get close to matching it. RPMs are pretty much insignificant to take into account, as long as the motor puts out the power it needs to, but since it's been brought up, the SR20DE's stock redline is 7.5K rpm (stock rev limiter is most likely higher), while my shift points in the ITA car come at a good 500 rpm or so below the nissan's stock redline. Bottom line, both power and torque are the Nissan's advantages.

Moving on, not an accurate comparison by any means, but my street car ('95 Talon Awd) with the strut suspension design does indeed behave differently, especially over bumps, than the double wishbone-d integra Type R I autox. So no question I believe that there is some performance difference to be had from a better suspension design. Advantage Honda.

A 5 mm difference in brake rotor size is there, but the 80 lbs of extra weight the DA and extra 115 lbs the DC have to carry around might just make it now an advantage for the Nissans.

Generally speaking, it's no question that the Hondas benefit from better aftermarket support. (Although we still run a fully custom made rear sway bar and header among other things.) Unfortunately, lack of such support can only be countered by spending a lot more money and time, but in the end it can still yield very good results - the two fastest ITA Saturns in the country, as well as an ITA 240SX's performance during the last few years are good examples that come to mind. This demonstrates that lack of support does not limit absolute performance, but just makes it a lot more expensive to achieve. If I had a money tree, there would be nothing more I'd love to do than pick some rarely built cars (and right now in ITA is filled of so many such cool cars) and give them an honest shot. The RWD 1.8L 2600 lbs BMWs and Miatas, the FWD Neons, 2305 lbs Civic EXs, and even lighter Proteges among others, all come to mind.

Other than some general comments on what it takes into account, I've yet to see the details of the "process" currently used posted anywhere. Although I may like to question it, my opinion of it is a positive one because even if it doesn't benefit me directly, the end result is that it does offer more choices of competitive cars in IT and that is certainly a good thing. ITA never looked so good.

In short, we all see things from our own perspectives, or in other words the way we want. But it doesn't hurt to keep an open mind and consider everyone else's, too. Plus for most it's still the off season, so more time for the internet forums.

Originally posted by lateapex911@Jan 26 2006, 03:19 AM
In the end, bringing the top cars back a bit, and trying to help the bottom feeders makes more sense.

This does make sense. The wildcards that this particular statement does not take into account however are all the new cars added to ITA within the last couple of years. A good argument can be made to reflect the earlier sentiment on here about the danger of making too many changes at once. Only time will tell, so lets hope for the best.

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by Hracer@Jan 25 2006, 10:45 PM
ITA never looked so good.

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Alex and Kevin, I think you'll get no argument from anyone on this!

GregA, whose new slogan is:

"If you're not in ITA, you suck!"

[Catch22]

Nah Greg, I know of FOUR 2nd gen Integras that are just plain built to the limits of the rules and are completely legal.

All of them are right around 145whp on a dynojet.

I actually don't believe the 3rd gen folks will get the 155 some of them talk about. Thats pretty much the same motor as the 2nd gen, and those guys would be ecstatic if they got to 150 (which I don't see happening).

With the exception of the 88 to 91 cars, you can pretty much reliably "rule of thumb" all Honda IT cars at the stock crank rated HP + 5 to 8 to get the IT prepped whp. The 88-91 cars seem to have been underrated from the factory. The STS autocross guys are getting around 110whp (2 above the factory rated CHP) with just an intake, header and exhaust. Top IT cars are around 125whp, which just destroys the notion that it only had 108 at the crank from the factory.

Examples of the + 5 to 8 example...

ITB 85 to 87 Civic/CRX Si - 100whp (92 stock)
ITA 92-95 Civic Si/EX - 130whp (125 stock)
ITA 90-93 Integra - 145whp (140 stock)
ITS Integra GSR - 175whp (172 stock)

These are numbers I've actually laid my eyes upon from top prepped cars and all are registered on dynojets. In some cases the results are from several cars that were all dead on each other, even with different engine builders.
Some cars respond to IT prep better than others. I have a theory that later Hondas (especially the DOHC Vtec cars) don't see alot of gains simply because the motors are so damned good straight from the factory.


Where your Nissans and Dodges and Saturns will get the Hondas is torque. I'm not sure anyone at Honda actually knows what torque is. They sure as hell never put any of it in their cars

[lateapex911]

The wildcard is not too wild. The recent additions have all been done using the process. This last big change was planned years ago. If it was rejected, we would have been screwed, LOL

[charrbq]

Andy,
I've watched the notorious ITA BMW run, and it's amazing. At Daytona, only a few 2nd gen RX7's and a certain notorious Benz can beat it. I won't say he's illegal, but everyone seems to think so. If the numbers that Evan sees on the tach are accurate, then something is rotten.

Evan,
Since this guy goes nowhere else other than close to home, that's a good indication for suspicion. If no one bothers to pony up for the knowledge to take the opportunity to allow the system to do its job, then it doesn't matter how much weight they put on your car and take off his...he'll still win. I understand your problem and frustration as you have to race him everytime you start your car. I've heard everyone gritch...you've heard them more...but someone other than the IT gurus needs to take care of the situation. If his car was/is legal, then the weight decrease would be welcomed as the car should be a slug.
I took this type of abuse from a competitor for years, and neither me or any of the other guys in my group would bother to do more than gripe behind his back about his legality. He continued to dominate the class and brag about his legality any time someone questioned it. I finally got my stomach full and nailed him on three different areas without ever opening the hood. Last seen, he was running GT in the same car.

Greg,
Face it, you're just plain fast. Imagine how fast you'd be in an Acura! I know, you just like the kinky stuff to throw everyone off.

[lateapex911]

Thats a great example of why results are not the deciding factor for classification changes.

Really, I am AMAZED that this has been allowed to continue for so long. There is NO WAY that car should run at tracks that are long. It's a torquer, not a runner.

Somebody needs to have a serious talk. Maybe the guy did something he thought was fine...?

[Racerboy03]

Getting back to the original topic, anyone know of good places to find lead blocks? I am in Charlotte, (aka NASCAR land) and near all the major distributors. I am going to check them out to see what they have, any other ideas?

-Mark

[R2 Racing]

As my car ran at the '05 ARRC, it put down 141whp on a Dynojet. I could see 145whp being possible but you'd be stretching for much more than that.

The power and torque of Greg's car made a mockery of mine down the straights if I wasn't able to catch a draft. Seriously, it had a beast of an engine. I didn't think either car had an advantage in braking. But, from the entrance of turn 1 through turn 5, my car would pull out on his pretty good. So there was definately a handleing advantage. Remember also that my Integra came in at 2575lbs after the race, so I was already at about the new weight for the car.

So I imagine after the ARRC, Greg went home thinking "Man, if I only had the handleing of those Hondas." just as I went home thinking "Man, if I only had the engine of that NX." But in the end, both cars were able to run pretty comparable lap times, and that's the whole point, right?



Kevin, who welcomes the changes!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by R2 Racing@Jan 26 2006, 08:45 AM

So I imagine after the ARRC, Greg went home thinking "Man, if I only had the handleing of those Hondas." just as I went home thinking "Man, if I only had the engine of that NX." But in the end, both cars were able to run pretty comparable lap times, and that's the whole point, right?
Kevin, who welcomes the changes!

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[zracre]

Hmmmmmmmm maybe an NX2000 in my future...I know where the perfect one is for sale down here........hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Catch22]

Originally posted by zracre@Jan 26 2006, 11:23 AM
Hmmmmmmmm maybe an NX2000 in my future...I know where the perfect one is for sale down here........hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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Have you SEEN his in-car footage from the ARRC?

As Karl Shultz put it... "Yeah, I'll have a steaming hot cup of 'no damned way.'"

I watched him from the paddock and later watched his in-car. Greg is good, I've been on an enduro team with him, I know he's good.
But that car, at the speeds he had to enter corners to even stay CLOSE to the Hondas, was just plain awful. There's no damned way I'd even want to try to drive that thing like that. Yeah, Greg is good, but he's also a little crazy. He was wrecking that car at least 3 times on every lap, he just never managed to hit anything.
He plans damper upgrades, which will probably help, but its still gonna suck in comparison to the Hondas and Miatas.

So if you think and NX is suddenly "the car."
Go for it. Just don't get yourself hurt trying to go as fast as you did in that Integra. Seriously.

[zracre]

I like oddball cars...and that thing is odd...I get enough "girl car" comments from the Miata...easy to get over when you pass them...I worked for Nissan and have pretty good intimate knowledge of the SR20 (lots of standing water here in FL...BANG!) and like a challenge. I boxed up and sold the ITB Sentra project so maybe....I will also consider a similarly odd looking car but would be just as fun and hard to find parts for...MX3 v6.