A word from the CRB on the recent changes...

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Knestis@Jan 27 2006, 09:11 PM
It all comes back to maximizing the area under the torque curve and those little changes can in fact become meaningful, to a race-winning degree.

K

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Kirk... Thanks for the clarification as to the function of the SIR... I'm sure there are still people who aren't getting the significance of how this works yet, but they will eventually...


As for your closing comment... Let's remember one thing... THIS IS IMPROVED TOURING... You just can't do THAT much to make a lot of changes to these curves... Certainly nothing more than can be done today... This isn't like a different cam profile... or anything that changes the curve at all... it just cuts it off at a specified airflow...

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but Bob Dowie has tested these, both on the Dyno and on the track... he reports to us that they have yet to make ANY adjustments to any of the FI cars... They react as if it's not there, right up until it is (sonic...)... On Carb'd cars, they don't even have to change jets...

Like Joe has mentioned... You MIGHT be able to squeeze 1, maybe 2 hp out of a good MOTEC system with this in place, but otherwise, the engine is blind to it right up until it hits sonic...

It keeps race cars as race cars... Or, in NASCAR's case, race trucks... They'll be using a similiar SIR device at the large tracks this coming season... WHY???? Because restrictor plate racing SUCKS, and hurts drivability... SIRs do NOT...

[lateapex911]

Kirk, I see your point. But like we've all said before, (you too, ;0) it is extremely diffcult to control spending in racing.

If I had an E36, I too would readjust my thinking. "Hmmm, if the SIR chops off the top end, then maybe I should work on the other parts of the curve..."

Well, duh! Of course I should...but really, why wasn't I before? Common wisdom always reminds us that it's the numbers "under the curve" that count. Pehaps I have done my homework, and there were tradeoffs, and I chose the top end power. Well, now it's simply a matter of going to "plan B"... as my decision of going for peak numbers has been trumped by the SIR.

I don't see the dangers as you do, of the spending spree that the SIRs have casued in the Formula car ranks, as our engines are much more restricted...stock this, stock that, and so on.

That said, I would be naive to think that there aren't guys spending as much money as they can to find the last few percents of power. Look at Spec Miata...super low drag con rods, ceramic bearings, trick treatings to the gear sets, one in a million parts matching, and so on. Some of it's legal, some of its not. it's all pricey, and theres no way to restrict the spending on the legal bits.

That won't change, no matter what we do. Well, maybe the best way is to make winning undesireable and meaningless. (In a perverse way, watching budgets expand is a signal that a series has cachet and desirability.)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by dj10@Jan 27 2006, 03:43 PM
I'm just trying to figure out if everyone thinks bmw 325's make 225 rwhp? That number is absurd. At the figures you provided they would be running 281 hp @ the crank!
I think we will have to manage without you.......because there is no way in hell I'm flying you in! hehe
Marshall's attitude is pretty much the same as mine, he is just more diplomatic.
We'll keep you abreast of the SIR experiment and thanks for RC Eng. link, mine are going out next week to them.

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NOOOOO!!! Our data shows a non-Motec equipped motor at 195whp and a max of 210whp on full-bore stuff. Please read the posts fully before jumping to this stuff. Somebody out there may claim it, but we have no evidence as such and are not basing our figures on it.

AB

[gpeluso]

ANDY,
WHAT KIND OF NUMBERS DO YOUR RX7'S HAVE?
SPEEDSOURCES?
RX7 AT THE ARRC?(SECOND PLACE)

THE SIR MAY NOT MATTER AGAINST YOUR CARS THAT YOU BUILD/MAINTAIN,
BUT WHO EVER BUILT THE ONE THAT WAS AT THE ARRC MAY DOMINATE A RESTRICTED BMW. SO, WITH YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH YOUR CARS MAYBE YOU ARE RIGHT ,AND THE BMW IS MUCH MUCH FASTER THAN YOUR RX7'S.........HOWEVER, SOMEONE OUT THERE REALLY KNOWS HOW TO BUILD A SUPERFAST RX7 (ARRC CAR) AND WILL PROBABLY GET ORDERS TO BUILD OR MAINTAIN EXISTING CARS.

ANDY, DON'T TELL ME NOW HOW FAST YOUR CARS ARE COMPARED TO OTHER ITS CARS, BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN TELLING US HOW THIS WILL HELP LEVEL THINGS. HOW MUCH FASTER WAS THE OTHER RX7 COMPARED TO YOURS?, MAYBE YOU SHOULD BE FOCUSING ON THAT. AND DON'T TELL ME HE WAS CHEATTING............IF HE WAS WHY DIDN'T HE GET CAUGHT. THAT GUY TO ME RUINS YOUR ARGUMENT.


SORRY(YOU JUST RUFFLED MY FEATHERS)
GREG

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Jan 27 2006, 05:47 PM
NOOOOO!!! Our data shows a non-Motec equipped motor at 195whp and a max of 210whp on full-bore stuff. Please read the posts fully before jumping to this stuff. Somebody out there may claim it, but we have no evidence as such and are not basing our figures on it.

AB

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[dj10]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Jan 27 2006, 04:47 PM
NOOOOO!!! Our data shows a non-Motec equipped motor at 195whp and a max of 210whp on full-bore stuff. Please read the posts fully before jumping to this stuff. Somebody out there may claim it, but we have no evidence as such and are not basing our figures on it.

AB

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Am I correct in saying full-bore stuff (210 rwhp) is a motec or similar system? If that's the case, I'll agree to that. You guy are trying to get us down to 175 to 180 rwhp? Which, by your definition is a mediocre perpared BMW Engine. Hmmmmm
guess we'll see.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by gpeluso@Jan 27 2006, 10:35 PM
AND DON'T TELL ME HE WAS CHEATTING............IF HE WAS WHY DIDN'T HE GET CAUGHT.

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HUH??? That is the FUNNIEST thing I've heard all day!!

<_<

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by gpeluso@Jan 27 2006, 05:35 PM
ANDY,
WHAT KIND OF NUMBERS DO YOUR RX7&#39;S HAVE?
SPEEDSOURCES?
RX7 AT THE ARRC?(SECOND PLACE)

..... AND DON&#39;T TELL ME HE WAS CHEATTING............IF HE WAS WHY DIDN&#39;T HE GET CAUGHT. THAT GUY TO ME RUINS YOUR ARGUMENT.

GREG

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Greg- That&#39;s TWICE now! First you say it&#39;s easy to be competitive in a stock motored BMW...which pretty much proves, based on logic alone, that a built one will be more than competitive. That one was so easy I ignored it, but now you come up with this gem!

I won&#39;t say he&#39;s cheating, but you CAN"T base a case on ONE guy at ONE race!

I have a secret...I know this guy...he cheats. But he hasn&#39;t been caught. So does that make him legal? NO! Why hasn&#39;t he been caught you ask? Because nobody has bothered to protest him...usually there aren&#39;t enough engine peices still assembled to each other after a race to base a protest on!

Listen...use some logic. Not getting caught does NOT equal legality!

And it&#39;s all BS anyway....this isn&#39;t about results, its about a numerical process.

Shoot logical, well founded holes in the process, and you will make ground.

[dj10]

NOOOOO!!! Our data shows a non-Motec equipped motor at 195whp and a max of 210whp on full-bore stuff. Please read the posts fully before jumping to this stuff. Somebody out there may claim it, but we have no evidence as such and are not basing our figures on it.

AB
[/b]

I would like to know what dyno you are using when you say we will be limited to 217 to 220 crank hp? As you know dyno jets measure differently than mustang.

[Andy Bettencourt]

ANDY,
WHAT KIND OF NUMBERS DO YOUR RX7&#39;S HAVE?
SPEEDSOURCES?
RX7 AT THE ARRC?(SECOND PLACE)

THE SIR MAY NOT MATTER AGAINST YOUR CARS THAT YOU BUILD/MAINTAIN,
BUT WHO EVER BUILT THE ONE THAT WAS AT THE ARRC MAY DOMINATE A RESTRICTED BMW. SO, WITH YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH YOUR CARS MAYBE YOU ARE RIGHT ,AND THE BMW IS MUCH MUCH FASTER THAN YOUR RX7&#39;S.........HOWEVER, SOMEONE OUT THERE REALLY KNOWS HOW TO BUILD A SUPERFAST RX7 (ARRC CAR) AND WILL PROBABLY GET ORDERS TO BUILD OR MAINTAIN EXISTING CARS.

ANDY, DON&#39;T TELL ME NOW HOW FAST YOUR CARS ARE COMPARED TO OTHER ITS CARS, BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN TELLING US HOW THIS WILL HELP LEVEL THINGS. HOW MUCH FASTER WAS THE OTHER RX7 COMPARED TO YOURS?, MAYBE YOU SHOULD BE FOCUSING ON THAT. AND DON&#39;T TELL ME HE WAS CHEATTING............IF HE WAS WHY DIDN&#39;T HE GET CAUGHT. THAT GUY TO ME RUINS YOUR ARGUMENT.
SORRY(YOU JUST RUFFLED MY FEATHERS)
GREG

[/b]

The RX-7&#39;s that have been run through our shop have seen between 165whp and 181whp. IIRC, Speedsource (where we get our initial builds) cars run 180-182whp. The second place car at the ARRC I have no insider info.

Why would I focus on how another RX-7 did in a RACE than ours? It means LITTLE in terms of hp and potential. Without INTIMATE knowledge of car set-up and a myriad of other issues, it is impossible to use one race to make a judgement. It&#39;s all about numbers, not results. This is a baseline reorg, not a results-based comp adjustment. You have to look at it for what it is.

It doesn&#39;t ruin any arguement. You want to say that the RX-7 and BMW are evenly matched now with the 2005 restrictor requirement in place...fine - let&#39;s assume that the current restrictor rule provides enough restriction for those who use it properly. It can be defeated and create a class overdog, so the two options that were laid out as detailed before. An SIR, properly sized, is more effective than a FP restrictor, which was a mistake. The E36 must be restricted in order to fit the class we can agree on that because the BMW guys are shouting nothing is wrong right now. . For those of you who are pointing out this years ARRC results as proof things are equal, you may be right, maybe not - but that E36 was restricted. The plan isn&#39;t to restrict it more, just to &#39;properly&#39; restrict it. The idea isn&#39;t to restrict more, just more effectively.

And when you realize what the SIR does to the airflow, you get back all the disruption a poorly done FP restrictor loses you.

Some of the questions are legit. Those who are freaked out, would you rather be restricted or run the &#39;process weight&#39;? Mnay have a problem answering this because the idea of an SIR is rediculous to them, yet they certainly don&#39;t want to weigh 3100+ (even though it provides the proper pw/wt).

What do you want?

AB

Am I correct in saying full-bore stuff (210 rwhp) is a motec or similar system? If that&#39;s the case, I&#39;ll agree to that. You guy are trying to get us down to 175 to 180 rwhp? Which, by your definition is a mediocre perpared BMW Engine. Hmmmmm
guess we&#39;ll see.
[/b]

I don&#39;t understand you point at all.

[gpeluso]

Jake,

Congats!!!!! If you are pointing your finger at a cheater here and not at the track at SCCA events. You are ruining the argument that a BMW is clearly an overgog. The way I look at it is this gentlemen showing us the full potential of the RX7. Great place to call someone a cheater and give absolutely now evidence!

By the way, I am looking at the numbers based on what Andy supplied(And you know his RX7 is slower than the one we are talking about) . When I talked to one of the best BMW engine builders he claimed his engine s were putting out between 189-194hp. Isn&#39;t the BMW weight more than the RX7. I&#39;m lost, where is the hole you speak of.
By the way, while your at it ,who else are you calling a cheater!


Greg

Greg- That&#39;s TWICE now! First you say it&#39;s easy to be competitive in a stock motored BMW...which pretty much proves, based on logic alone, that a built one will be more than competitive. That one was so easy I ignored it, but now you come up with this gem!

I won&#39;t say he&#39;s cheating, but you CAN"T base a case on ONE guy at ONE race!

I have a secret...I know this guy...he cheats. But he hasn&#39;t been caught. So does that make him legal? NO! Why hasn&#39;t he been caught you ask? Because nobody has bothered to protest him...usually there aren&#39;t enough engine peices still assembled to each other after a race to base a protest on!

Listen...use some logic. Not getting caught does NOT equal legality!

And it&#39;s all BS anyway....this isn&#39;t about results, its about a numerical process.

Shoot logical, well founded holes in the process, and you will make ground.
[/b]

[Andy Bettencourt]

By the way, I am looking at the numbers based on what Andy supplied(And you know his RX7 is slower than the one we are talking about) . When I talked to one of the best BMW engine builders he claimed his engine s were putting out between 189-194hp. Isn&#39;t the BMW weight more than the RX7. I&#39;m lost, where is the hole you speak of.


[/b]

So let me get this straight. You are quoting RX-7 WHP numbers on a car nobody has seen for more than 4 races, from a BMW engine builder?

I can&#39;t wait for all the RX-7 guys on this BB who have full-tilt Speedsource motors to comment on a 189-194whp 13B!!!! What do you think Bill D? Everyone else?



AB

[buldogge]

Hold on here... Everyone has always whined about the E36 and its numbers...yet...You have just (again) pointed out that the RX-7 makes 180+ rwhp....and now we are to be limited to this same horsepower BUT at 200# heavier...where&#39;s the parity exactly???

How &#39;bout instead of us having 2 whole weeks to implement an entirely new system...you guys (ITAC, CRB, BoD) get off your asses and test a 27mm SIR on the actual model car you intend it for and change the implementation date to a more reasonable timeframe AFTER you have finished said testing!!!...???

...or...does the rush job benefit some points race or ???

So let me get this straight. You are quoting RX-7 WHP numbers on a car nobody has seen for more than 4 races, from a BMW engine builder?

I can&#39;t wait for all the RX-7 guys on this BB who have full-tilt Speedsource motors to comment on a 189-194whp 13B!!!! What do you think Bill D? Everyone else?



AB
[/b]

[Andy Bettencourt]

Hold on here... Everyone has always whined about the E36 and its numbers...yet...You have just (again) pointed out that the RX-7 makes 180+ rwhp....and now we are to be limited to this same horsepower BUT at 200# heavier...where&#39;s the parity exactly???


...or...does the rush job benefit some points race or ???
[/b]

Care to consider the large brakes and HUGE torque advantage the BMW has? RX-7&#39;s make 128-130ftlbs at teh wheels. And it&#39;s a 170lb difference. Wanna switch engines and weights? DOUBT IT.

Please just stop it with the conspiracy crap. You are killing any legitimacy of your posts. We WANT you to be comfortable and we undertand the concern...but let&#39;s keep the backhanded comments to a minimum.

AB

[gpeluso]

ANDY,

WHAT??
I am quoting BMW hp from an BMW engine builder.
Get it, BMW 2850 / 190 hp

RX7 (weight) /182 hp

tell me the RX7 weight.

Greg

So let me get this straight. You are quoting RX-7 WHP numbers on a car nobody has seen for more than 4 races, from a BMW engine builder?

I can&#39;t wait for all the RX-7 guys on this BB who have full-tilt Speedsource motors to comment on a 189-194whp 13B!!!! What do you think Bill D? Everyone else?



AB
[/b]

ANDY,
Is there no advantage with the respect that RX7&#39;s can rev higher, I know you guys just ply in the high rpms to make up the difference. You drive these cars differently, can&#39;t you agree.

Greg

Care to consider the large brakes and HUGE torque advantage the BMW has? RX-7&#39;s make 128-130ftlbs at teh wheels. And it&#39;s a 170lb difference. Wanna switch engines and weights? DOUBT IT.

Please just stop it with the conspiracy crap. You are killing any legitimacy of your posts. We WANT you to be comfortable and we undertand the concern...but let&#39;s keep the backhanded comments to a minimum.

AB
[/b]

[Andy Bettencourt]

ANDY,

WHAT??
I am quoting BMW hp from an BMW engine builder.
Get it, BMW 2850 / 190 hp

RX7 (weight) /182 hp

tell me the RX7 weight.

Greg
[/b]

I misread your post. When you said "his" engine, I thought you were talking about the to RX-7 at the ARRC. My bad.

Tell us who the engine builder is, what the extent of the development is AND if it has programmable fuel management. Qualify your data if you want us to validate it.

You know the RX-7 weight. We have dyno sheets from a BMW guy showing 195whp. IT IS THE LOWEST WE HAVE ON FILE. Top cars showing 210 with full, 100% developement. Why are you using only the numbers that serve your arguement? We are using numbers supplied by BMW owners.

The best vs. best caclulations have been done. 195 is a very good build. 210 is tops we have seen. 175 is an average Mazda build. 181 is as much as we have seen but have heard 182. The following are UNrestricted numbers.

195/2850 = 14.62
175/2680 = 15.31

or

210/2850 = 13.57
181/2680 = 14.81 (182/2680 = 14.73)

ANDY,
Is there no advantage with the respect that RX7&#39;s can rev higher, I know you guys just ply in the high rpms to make up the difference. You drive these cars differently, can&#39;t you agree.

Greg
[/b]

There may be some advantage, but it is track/gear dependent, not outright speed beneficial. If you you want speed, revving past your power peak is not gonna get you down the track. Holding a gear longer into a corner without shifting can have it&#39;s upside - but it is about smoothness and maybe a slightly better lap time, but it isn&#39;t about overall speed.

Re-read the account on the review of the Huffmaster RX-7 video. PULLED down the straight by an obscene amount of car lengths. Please don&#39;t use the example as to the equality, then discount the evidence that it lays the pipe to the RX-7 in terms of power.

AB

[gpeluso]

Andy,

If I told you that my new engine puts out 190 whp and this new restrictor would not affect me, I&#39;ll take it, but how do you know for sure. I just had a rebuild and I do not believe I even have that much but I want to think positive. I am going to a dyno Wed. to get my GTS sheet for NASA. Please make me believe I would have no restrictions. If the SIR only prevents top HP, why not make every ITS car have one, If your right it won&#39;t affect any other car at all. I feel better knowing all ITS people will have to shell out the $$ for this new device. $$ is an issue with some of us drivers.

Thanks
Greg

I misread your post. When you said "his" engine, I thought you were talking about the to RX-7 at the ARRC. My bad.

Tell us who the engine builder is, what the extent of the development is AND if it has programmable fuel management. Qualify your data if you want us to validate it.

You know the RX-7 weight. We have dyno sheets from a BMW guy showing 195whp. IT IS THE LOWEST WE HAVE ON FILE. Top cars showing 210 with full, 100% developement. Why are you using only the numbers that serve your arguement? We are using numbers supplied by BMW owners.

The best vs. best caclulations have been done. 195 is a very good build. 210 is tops we have seen. 175 is an average Mazda build. 181 is as much as we have seen but have heard 182.

195/2850 = 14.62
175/2680 = 15.31

or

210/2850 = 13.57
181/2680 = 14.81 (182/2680 = 14.73)
There may be some advantage, but it is track/gear dependent, not outright speed beneficial. If you you want speed, revving past your power peak is not gonna get you there down the track. Holding a gear longer into a corner without shifting can have it&#39;s upside.

Re-read the account on the review of the Huffmaster RX-7 video. PULLED down the straight by an obscene amount of car lengths. Please don&#39;t use the example as to the equality, then discount the evidence that it lays the pipe to the RX-7 in terms of power.

AB
[/b]

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy,

If I told you that my new engine puts out 190 whp and this new restrictor would not affect me, I&#39;ll take it, but how do you know for sure. I just had a rebuild and I do not believe I even have that much but I want to think positive. I am going to a dyno Wed. to get my GTS sheet for NASA. Please make me believe I would have no restrictions. If the SIR only prevents top HP, why not make every ITS car have one, If your right it won&#39;t affect any other car at all. I feel better knowing all ITS people will have to shell out the $$ for this new device. $$ is an issue with some of us drivers.

Thanks
Greg
[/b]

Your concerns have been noted and addressed ad-nausium in this thread. SIR&#39;s for all cars is an idea many BMW guys have thrown out there. I see no problem with it. Write into the CRB with the idea. Get it on the books.

AB

[Joe Harlan]

Andy,

If I told you that my new engine puts out 190 whp and this new restrictor would not affect me, I&#39;ll take it, but how do you know for sure. I just had a rebuild and I do not believe I even have that much but I want to think positive. I am going to a dyno Wed. to get my GTS sheet for NASA. Please make me believe I would have no restrictions. If the SIR only prevents top HP, why not make every ITS car have one, If your right it won&#39;t affect any other car at all. I feel better knowing all ITS people will have to shell out the $$ for this new device. $$ is an issue with some of us drivers.
Thanks
Greg
[/b]

Again Greg, You didn&#39;t give a crap about all the other cars that were spending tons of money just trying to stay on the same straight all these years. Did it matter to you that Z cars are having to buy new goodyears every weekend while the E36&#39;s have had the ability to run toyos for 4 and 5 weekends? Did it bother you that guys have continued to show up and get beat buy cars that were not as well prepped and not driven nearly as good. Forget SIR&#39;s for the whole class. That is not the answer. SIR&#39;s are to balance a class that needs balanced and nothing more. If new built Supra showed up and was actually built I would push for an SIR and a weight break for it. If it is proven that any other cars is outside the performance index of the class I woudl push for a restictor to bring balance. Forcing other cars to carry these things just because of some BS since of fair is not hte answer. The folks with carbs would have to spend 3 times the amount to built the crush proof carbon fiber box that you don&#39;t have to build because of you intake design. Lets get on with this. I am serious put the car on the dyno. Cut the air tube and add SIR to it and compare sheets. Below the restriction you should see little to no difference. I d not believe based on infor from GT cars that have tested you are have very little if any tuning to do. The thought I read on the bimmmer forum that speedsource will build a better SIR that will make more power is also silly IF the SIR does what it is supposed to then you are not going to build a better part than the raetech piece and yes I have actually had one in hand and got to remove all the parts on it to see.

[MikeBlaszczak]

Your concerns have been noted and addressed ad-nausium in this thread. SIR&#39;s for all cars is an idea many BMW guys have thrown out there. I see no problem with it. Write into the CRB with the idea. Get it on the books.
[/b]

Have they? I&#39;ve read the whole thread, even the rhetoric. But I didn&#39;t read anything that makes me sure that the SIR will not affect cars with less preparation.

Did it matter to you that Z cars are having to buy new goodyears every weekend while the E36&#39;s have had the ability to run toyos for 4 and 5 weekends?
[/b]

Yeah, it did. I wondered how guys could race those cars, with the technology being 30 years old and all. I thought that ITS was for recent cars, not vintage rigs. And that&#39;s why I wonder why the older cars aren&#39;t classified down over time.

[Joe Harlan]

Have they? I&#39;ve read the whole thread, even the rhetoric. But I didn&#39;t read anything that makes me sure that the SIR will not affect cars with less preparation.
Yeah, it did. I wondered how guys could race those cars, with the technology being 30 years old and all. I thought that ITS was for recent cars, not vintage rigs. And that&#39;s why I wonder why the older cars aren&#39;t classified down over time.
[/b]

Mike that is BS and you know it.

Cars from the previous four (4) model years and the current model year will
not be eligible. No car older than a 1968 model of any listed vehicle will be
accepted for Improved Touring competition. Turbocharged/Supercharged
cars are not eligible for Improved Touring competition. Cars need not be eligible for state license or registration.[/b]

Pretty clear what the intent of IT is. The Z cars that are beating you are some of the best prepped and driven cars on the west coast and by your own admission you are far from a developed package.