Diff. cooler pump

[MMiskoe]

Sorry Jake, what I meant by the 'hardware' comment was that the only item in the case that has been changed is the plug for the drain & fill points. Those plugs are hardware which is free. Otherwise there are no changes to the diff casing which is clearly stated must remain un-altered.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by MMiskoe@Jan 23 2006, 09:01 PM
Sorry Jake, what I meant by the 'hardware' comment was that the only item in the case that has been changed is the plug for the drain & fill points. Those plugs are hardware which is free. Otherwise there are no changes to the diff casing which is clearly stated must remain un-altered.

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This is what D.4.d says: (emphasis mine)

d. Hardware items (nuts, bolts, etc.) may be replaced by similar
items performing the same fastening function(s).

So the hardware is hardly 'free'.

I can't believe people are actually trying to justify this as legal. Engine oil coolers are expressly called out as legal. Why would you think that this wouldn't need to be the case for a diff. cooler?

[turboICE]

He was replying to my comment that diff and trans coolers are permitted by line in Touring and whether or not a future T4 car with it on their Touring line would lose it when they came over to IT. Apparently they would.

I guess I just expected items permitted in a more restricted modification class would work down to a higher modification class - may not have been valid but an expectation none the less.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by turboICE@Jan 23 2006, 09:16 PM
He was replying to my comment that diff and trans coolers are permitted by line in Touring and whether or not a future T4 car with it on their Touring line would lose it when they came over to IT. Apparently they would.

I guess I just expected items permitted in a more restricted modification class would work down to a higher modification class - may not have been valid but an expectation none the less.

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See Ed that's where you get confused....Touring is a different class and nothing more. Production allows alternate compression but if I brought my EP 240sx back to IT would you care that it had 12:1 compression or should I follow the rules set for a IT (a different class)

[turboICE]

Well that would be going from a less restricted modified class to a more restricted modfication class - I don't see where anything I said suggested that.

The confusion comes from the progression of modfication level T/SS > IT > Prod > GT as communicated many times by veterans here.

If there is no relation between classes of competition and their levels of modification for preparation then no rule change risks creeping towards production as there is no relationship between IT modification level and production modification level, each ruleset is determined independently of each other.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by turboICE@Jan 23 2006, 09:48 PM
Well that would be going from a less restricted modified class to a more restricted modfication class - I don't see where anything I said suggested that.

The confusion comes from the progression of modfication level T/SS > IT > Prod > GT as communicated many times by veterans here.

If there is no relation between classes of competition and their levels of modification for preparation then no rule change risks creeping towards production as there is no relationship between IT modification level and production modification level, each ruleset is determined independently of each other.

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Ahhhh Now I see where you are lost....That progression does not exist and never has. By the time your 240sx goes SS,IT,Prod,GT....there is nothing left of SS..The concept is good but not very real. I figured it out a long time ago. Work with the rules for the class you are in and don't even read the other set unless you are ready to move there because you will pull your hair out trying to figure it out. It's funny that I have been building racing engines for a lot of years and I still have to get the book out for each catagory including SS just to be sure.

[JLawton]

We ALL agree that there are a bunch of IT rules that don't make sense!!

However, just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean you can IGNORE it!!

If you think a role is stupid and disregard it, you're cheating!! Plane and simple!!

As others have mentioned, if you brag about having illegal parts, what other areas are suspect??

Don't give me that crap about not adding to performance but adding to longevity. To finish first, you first have to finish!!

[rsportvolvo]

Originally posted by JLawton@Jan 24 2006, 12:05 PM
We ALL agree that there are a bunch of IT rules that don't make sense!!

However, just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean you can IGNORE it!!

If you think a role is stupid and disregard it, you're cheating!! Plane and simple!!

As others have mentioned, if you brag about having illegal parts, what other areas are suspect??

Don't give me that crap about not adding to performance but adding to longevity. To finish first, you first have to finish!!

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If WE all agree that some rules need revision and WE are the ones racing, why don't WE petition the revisions that keep IT affordable as an entry level class? Without racers SCCA is just a figure head. I find it strange that WE, in general, just sit back and take it. SCCA doesn't really care that much about IT or they would make it a National Class. Why not update the rules? Like I said before, SCCA racing isn't what it used to be and never was.

I was boasting about running shot peened rods. But let me ask you this, if you protest my car for the rods being illegal how can you prove that I shot peened my rods? Did Volvo shot peen the rods from the Factory? Were the rods shot peened from another rebuild by a shot that uses shot to clean engine parts? Basically this modification only increases the life of the rod by increasing the rods fatigue life. If you're going to complain abou that I feel sorry for you. Same goes for someone who would protest the use of a diff. cooler. That makes for a satisifying victory!

If you suspect my car's illegal, put up or shutup. Not trying to be rude, but if you aren't going to protest, then you're just a whiner. No one likes a whiner and you are doing nothing about keeping IT honest. Oh, and the accused is, of course, innocent until proven guilty.

I will only use a diff. cooler if it is added to the ITCS. I think that it is an oversight that should be addressed. For the naysayers, take the time to get some temp readings from you diff.'s. I think you'll be surprised at how hot they actually get.

I'm sure the VAG fans will say quit whining as they have to replace wheel bearings just about every race. Maybe they're right.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by rsportvolvo@Jan 24 2006, 09:32 AM


I was boasting about running shot peened rods. But let me ask you this, if you protest my car for the rods being illegal how can you prove that I shot peened my rods? Did Volvo shot peen the rods from the Factory? Were the rods shot peened from another rebuild by a shot that uses shot to clean engine parts? Basically this modification only increases the life of the rod by increasing the rods fatigue life. If you're going to complain abou that I feel sorry for you. Same goes for someone who would protest the use of a diff. cooler. That makes for a satisifying victory!

Pretty easy to prove, produce a stock rod from the Volvo parts dept. I could care less if they were shot peened by some other shop that uses that technique to clean engine parts, still illegal. Maybe you should talk to the gentleman (I forget his name) that lost his HP National Championship because his factoryvalves happened to be a few thou. too large?

BTW, I love these guys that try and intimidate you into allowing their illegal parts/mods. And what really makes for a satisfying victory is running a known illegal car, that you've justified in your own mind!! You're the one I feel sorry for.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 24 2006, 10:02 AM
Pretty easy to prove, produce a stock rod from the Volvo parts dept. I could care less if they were shot peened by some other shop that uses that technique to clean engine parts, still illegal. Maybe you should talk to the gentleman (I forget his name) that lost his HP National Championship because his factoryvalves happened to be a few thou. too large?

BTW, I love these guys that try and intimidate you into allowing their illegal parts/mods. And what really makes for a satisfying victory is running a known illegal car, that you've justified in your own mind!! You're the one I feel sorry for.

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Bead blasting is not shot peening.

[Knestis]

Originally posted by rsportvolvo@Jan 24 2006, 10:32 AM
... I was boasting about running shot peened rods. But let me ask you this, if you protest my car for the rods being illegal how can you prove that I shot peened my rods? ... If you're going to complain abou that I feel sorry for you. Same goes for someone who would protest the use of a diff. cooler. That makes for a satisifying victory! ...

Dude. Seriously.

I was going to actually get involved in the substance of this conversation but I've changed my mind.

Kirk (who thinks that Chesapeake, VA is close enough to Greensboro, NC that he'll get to race against this fellow ITB competitor at VIR)

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rsportvolvo@Jan 24 2006, 10:32 AM
SCCA doesn't really care that much about IT or they would make it a National Class.

Sorry, but you failed logic in school. Or debating. or you're just flaming us for giggles. The two have NOTHING to do with each other! Duh. Have you sent in request to make it National? A plan perhaps? Did the club ignore it? What possible evidence do you have to support such a statement? Please, post responsibly.

Why not update the rules?

Why not read them!? As in YOU should read them. They are updated, on a constant basis. Then again, as you have stated, your judgement trumps the rulebook, so reading them would be a waste of time for you.

Like I said before, SCCA racing isn't what it used to be and never was

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Don't try to out Yogi Berra Yogi Berra.

[turboICE]

I really don't see anyway in the most extreme imagination that it would be legal in the current ruleset.

I do think trans and diff coolers should be allowed as the benefit of longevity far outweighs the potential for an incremental performance improvement (which exists but I believe deminimus in IT usage).

My trans and rear end were made for power far exceeding anything IT prep can deliver to it so I wouldn't use them myself.

When I do see something that I believe I should be able to do in IT but don't feel the rules allow me to do, I may or may not discuss it here but I can guarantee you I write the CRB and make the request. Your efforts would be best served requesting that trans and diff coolers be permitted in IT than being here justifying their usage knowing they aren't allowed.

crb [atsign] scca [dot] com

[Joe Harlan]

If WE all agree that some rules need revision and WE are the ones racing, why don't WE petition the revisions that keep IT affordable as an entry level class? Without racers SCCA is just a figure head. I find it strange that WE, in general, just sit back and take it. SCCA doesn't really care that much about IT or they would make it a National Class. Why not update the rules? Like I said before, SCCA racing isn't what it used to be and never was.

That's total BS....They care enough about it not to make it a national class. Make it national and watch how fast you have to pend money to keep up. SM will prove that out. Now that it's a runoffs class the numbers will start heading south. Also it is not the SCCA that prevents the constant addition of un-needed parts. It is the IT membership as a whole not just the few that participate here. everytime you add to the cost of fielding a competitive car you decrease the ability of the class to stay alive as an entry level place to go racing. If you have a spcific need that can be documented with proof then please feel free to requst it for your application. Be sure to include photos and documents that show the serious need for the addition of the parts requested. If it's a case of melting geas because they aren't up to the task I could see adding a per car cooler. I think the 240z guys will tell you they are changing fluid every weekend and the smell will keep the dog out of the garage but they are not having failures.

[turboICE]

I have to agree I think the SCCA feels that this class is an important part of their portfolio. I can't see them going through all the aggrevation they have in the last couple years strengthening the ruleset if they didn't view it as important and worthy of their attention.

David have you written in to the CRB requesting rule changes? In 2005 I sent in several. Three are now in the GCR, one I see their point in not passing it (factory motorsport car specific wear item) and the other I haven't seen a FasTrack response to yet (concerned that one is being ignored as several have been issued since then).

[OTLimit]

Still trying to figure out how people can cheat. Know they are cheating. Win (sometimes). And then can sleep at night.

While some would say that this is amateur racing and why do you care? I care because it IS amateur racing. YOU are supposed to be honest enough to want to win a crappy trophy without cheating.

I have no sympathy for lame excuses. You picked a car, and they all have their weak spots. Race it legally or have the fortitude to race in a class where those changes are legal.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by OTLimit@Jan 24 2006, 12:19 PM
Still trying to figure out how people can cheat. Know they are cheating. Win (sometimes). And then can sleep at night.

While some would say that this is amateur racing and why do you care? I care because it IS amateur racing. YOU are supposed to be honest enough to want to win a crappy trophy without cheating.

I have no sympathy for lame excuses. You picked a car, and they all have their weak spots. Race it legally or have the fortitude to race in a class where those changes are legal.

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Lesley, you are my hero!

Integrity.

[latebrake]

If done right a diff pump and cooler can be a drysump trans. Less power loss.

[ITANorm]

Originally posted by latebrake@Jan 24 2006, 12:43 PM
If done right a diff pump and cooler can be a drysump trans. Less power loss.

[snapback]71911[/snapback]

So can an oil cooler. SHHHHHH!

[itmanta]

I would say that it is total BS to say a modification made to keep a part alive under racing conditions is not a competative advantage in IT. That is what makes one car better than the other. No different than having better brakes or more HP. It is all part of the equation for each vehicle. I do not want to see anyone hurt, but if your parts can't hang I would be glad to see you pulled safely off track.