Diff. cooler pump

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by MMiskoe@Jan 23 2006, 09:01 PM
Sorry Jake, what I meant by the 'hardware' comment was that the only item in the case that has been changed is the plug for the drain & fill points. Those plugs are hardware which is free. Otherwise there are no changes to the diff casing which is clearly stated must remain un-altered.

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This is what D.4.d says: (emphasis mine)

d. Hardware items (nuts, bolts, etc.) may be replaced by similar
items performing the same fastening function(s).

So the hardware is hardly 'free'.

I can't believe people are actually trying to justify this as legal. Engine oil coolers are expressly called out as legal. Why would you think that this wouldn't need to be the case for a diff. cooler?

[JLawton]

We ALL agree that there are a bunch of IT rules that don't make sense!!

However, just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean you can IGNORE it!!

If you think a role is stupid and disregard it, you're cheating!! Plane and simple!!

As others have mentioned, if you brag about having illegal parts, what other areas are suspect??

Don't give me that crap about not adding to performance but adding to longevity. To finish first, you first have to finish!!

[rsportvolvo]

Originally posted by JLawton@Jan 24 2006, 12:05 PM
We ALL agree that there are a bunch of IT rules that don't make sense!!

However, just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean you can IGNORE it!!

If you think a role is stupid and disregard it, you're cheating!! Plane and simple!!

As others have mentioned, if you brag about having illegal parts, what other areas are suspect??

Don't give me that crap about not adding to performance but adding to longevity. To finish first, you first have to finish!!

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If WE all agree that some rules need revision and WE are the ones racing, why don't WE petition the revisions that keep IT affordable as an entry level class? Without racers SCCA is just a figure head. I find it strange that WE, in general, just sit back and take it. SCCA doesn't really care that much about IT or they would make it a National Class. Why not update the rules? Like I said before, SCCA racing isn't what it used to be and never was.

I was boasting about running shot peened rods. But let me ask you this, if you protest my car for the rods being illegal how can you prove that I shot peened my rods? Did Volvo shot peen the rods from the Factory? Were the rods shot peened from another rebuild by a shot that uses shot to clean engine parts? Basically this modification only increases the life of the rod by increasing the rods fatigue life. If you're going to complain abou that I feel sorry for you. Same goes for someone who would protest the use of a diff. cooler. That makes for a satisifying victory!

If you suspect my car's illegal, put up or shutup. Not trying to be rude, but if you aren't going to protest, then you're just a whiner. No one likes a whiner and you are doing nothing about keeping IT honest. Oh, and the accused is, of course, innocent until proven guilty.

I will only use a diff. cooler if it is added to the ITCS. I think that it is an oversight that should be addressed. For the naysayers, take the time to get some temp readings from you diff.'s. I think you'll be surprised at how hot they actually get.

I'm sure the VAG fans will say quit whining as they have to replace wheel bearings just about every race. Maybe they're right.

[turboICE]

I really don't see anyway in the most extreme imagination that it would be legal in the current ruleset.

I do think trans and diff coolers should be allowed as the benefit of longevity far outweighs the potential for an incremental performance improvement (which exists but I believe deminimus in IT usage).

My trans and rear end were made for power far exceeding anything IT prep can deliver to it so I wouldn't use them myself.

When I do see something that I believe I should be able to do in IT but don't feel the rules allow me to do, I may or may not discuss it here but I can guarantee you I write the CRB and make the request. Your efforts would be best served requesting that trans and diff coolers be permitted in IT than being here justifying their usage knowing they aren't allowed.

crb [atsign] scca [dot] com

[Joe Harlan]

If WE all agree that some rules need revision and WE are the ones racing, why don't WE petition the revisions that keep IT affordable as an entry level class? Without racers SCCA is just a figure head. I find it strange that WE, in general, just sit back and take it. SCCA doesn't really care that much about IT or they would make it a National Class. Why not update the rules? Like I said before, SCCA racing isn't what it used to be and never was.

That's total BS....They care enough about it not to make it a national class. Make it national and watch how fast you have to pend money to keep up. SM will prove that out. Now that it's a runoffs class the numbers will start heading south. Also it is not the SCCA that prevents the constant addition of un-needed parts. It is the IT membership as a whole not just the few that participate here. everytime you add to the cost of fielding a competitive car you decrease the ability of the class to stay alive as an entry level place to go racing. If you have a spcific need that can be documented with proof then please feel free to requst it for your application. Be sure to include photos and documents that show the serious need for the addition of the parts requested. If it's a case of melting geas because they aren't up to the task I could see adding a per car cooler. I think the 240z guys will tell you they are changing fluid every weekend and the smell will keep the dog out of the garage but they are not having failures.

[turboICE]

I have to agree I think the SCCA feels that this class is an important part of their portfolio. I can't see them going through all the aggrevation they have in the last couple years strengthening the ruleset if they didn't view it as important and worthy of their attention.

David have you written in to the CRB requesting rule changes? In 2005 I sent in several. Three are now in the GCR, one I see their point in not passing it (factory motorsport car specific wear item) and the other I haven't seen a FasTrack response to yet (concerned that one is being ignored as several have been issued since then).

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by rsportvolvo@Jan 24 2006, 09:32 AM


I was boasting about running shot peened rods. But let me ask you this, if you protest my car for the rods being illegal how can you prove that I shot peened my rods? Did Volvo shot peen the rods from the Factory? Were the rods shot peened from another rebuild by a shot that uses shot to clean engine parts? Basically this modification only increases the life of the rod by increasing the rods fatigue life. If you're going to complain abou that I feel sorry for you. Same goes for someone who would protest the use of a diff. cooler. That makes for a satisifying victory!

Pretty easy to prove, produce a stock rod from the Volvo parts dept. I could care less if they were shot peened by some other shop that uses that technique to clean engine parts, still illegal. Maybe you should talk to the gentleman (I forget his name) that lost his HP National Championship because his factoryvalves happened to be a few thou. too large?

BTW, I love these guys that try and intimidate you into allowing their illegal parts/mods. And what really makes for a satisfying victory is running a known illegal car, that you've justified in your own mind!! You're the one I feel sorry for.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 24 2006, 10:02 AM
Pretty easy to prove, produce a stock rod from the Volvo parts dept. I could care less if they were shot peened by some other shop that uses that technique to clean engine parts, still illegal. Maybe you should talk to the gentleman (I forget his name) that lost his HP National Championship because his factoryvalves happened to be a few thou. too large?

BTW, I love these guys that try and intimidate you into allowing their illegal parts/mods. And what really makes for a satisfying victory is running a known illegal car, that you've justified in your own mind!! You're the one I feel sorry for.

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Bead blasting is not shot peening.

[OTLimit]

Still trying to figure out how people can cheat. Know they are cheating. Win (sometimes). And then can sleep at night.

While some would say that this is amateur racing and why do you care? I care because it IS amateur racing. YOU are supposed to be honest enough to want to win a crappy trophy without cheating.

I have no sympathy for lame excuses. You picked a car, and they all have their weak spots. Race it legally or have the fortitude to race in a class where those changes are legal.

[bldn10]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 23 2006, 08:09 PM
David,
Write your letter, but keep in mind, unless you actually spend the money, and do it through a 13.9, a response stating that they are legal, is nothing more than someone's opinion, and won't necessarily stand up to a protest. You want something that you can take to the tech shed, a 13.9 is the way to go.

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Bill, as I interpret and understand it. a 13.9 opinion will not necessarily "stand up to a protest." All it does is prevent penalty points from being assessed when the local SOM find you illegal despite your piece of paper from Topeka.

[latebrake]

If done right a diff pump and cooler can be a drysump trans. Less power loss.

[bldn10]

Matt, nothing wrong w/ being a Devil's advocate but it just concerns me that more and more people are actually making these kinds of claims w/ straight faces. The objective of any rule interpretation is to try to discern the drafters' intent - not to torture it for our own purposes.

"No where does it say you can change the tire pressures you run, however, you can run any tire so its interperted that you can run any pressure."

No where is there a spec for tire pressures and tires do not come w/ air in them so that is a matter completely w/i the discretion of the user - it is not an item even subject to regulation.

"where does it say you can adjust front toe settings? Perhaps I've missed something, but I don't see it. Camber changes aren't specifically allowed, it just gives a method of adjustment, presumably to return the camber settings to stock after changing springs & lowering the car?"

Likewise, there are no mandated specs re suspension settings, so you can do what you want as long as you don't have to modify the car in an illegal way to do so.

"No where does it say you can change Diff oil type, but it does say you can change diff gears & lockup methods. So is it also implied that you can change the fluid to match what is required by the clutch pack style diff you upgraded to? If you can change tire pressures by changing tires, then you can change oil type to match the diff system."

Arguably dealt w/ in 17.36: any oil and oil additives may be used. These examples are more like the gas tank - no where does it say you can run less than a full tank; therefore, you have to. Some things just aren't w/i the purview of the Rules. So, no, I do not believe that the reason you can use some other diff. fluid is because you made an allowable change in the diff, itself. It is because you can use any fluid you want anyway.

"What was asked here was if an oil cooler can be fitted. If the diff system requires cool oil, and the only way to acheive that is w/ an oil cooler, the cooler can be installed w/o mods to the case, where's the problem? The only change is the drain & vent plugs which fall under hardware."

Absolutely not! It says you can change the diff, but it does not say you can do anything else to make it work better, or at all, for that matter. This is rules creep at its worst - first you make the argument you made, next someone argues that they need cool fluid too but they can't get a cooler in the case so they should be able to use an external cooler. Or it's simply cheaper to use an external unit. Then everyone wants an external diff. cooler. Then you say if a diff. cooler is OK why not a tranny cooler? Why not allow icing down of the intake air, or fuel for that matter? And on and on. If the IT community wants to alow some things that make our cars last longer and/or run cheaper, those may be legit changes to make, but they sould be made w/ deliberation through the rules process - not on an ad hoc basis through cheating and protests.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by bldn10@Jan 24 2006, 11:28 AM
Bill, as I interpret and understand it. a 13.9 opinion will not necessarily "stand up to a protest." All it does is prevent penalty points from being assessed when the local SOM find you illegal despite your piece of paper from Topeka.

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That's not the way I understand it Bill. The 13.9 is essentially a CoA ruling on rule. If you are protested, and the SOM hears the protest, and in spite of your 13.9, finds you non-compliant, winning the appeal will be a slam dunk. In addition, I would think the SOM would be admonished for disregarding an official rule interpretation.

[itmanta]

I would say that it is total BS to say a modification made to keep a part alive under racing conditions is not a competative advantage in IT. That is what makes one car better than the other. No different than having better brakes or more HP. It is all part of the equation for each vehicle. I do not want to see anyone hurt, but if your parts can't hang I would be glad to see you pulled safely off track.

[Knestis]

Originally posted by rsportvolvo@Jan 24 2006, 10:32 AM
... I was boasting about running shot peened rods. But let me ask you this, if you protest my car for the rods being illegal how can you prove that I shot peened my rods? ... If you're going to complain abou that I feel sorry for you. Same goes for someone who would protest the use of a diff. cooler. That makes for a satisifying victory! ...

Dude. Seriously.

I was going to actually get involved in the substance of this conversation but I've changed my mind.

Kirk (who thinks that Chesapeake, VA is close enough to Greensboro, NC that he'll get to race against this fellow ITB competitor at VIR)

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by OTLimit@Jan 24 2006, 12:19 PM
Still trying to figure out how people can cheat. Know they are cheating. Win (sometimes). And then can sleep at night.

While some would say that this is amateur racing and why do you care? I care because it IS amateur racing. YOU are supposed to be honest enough to want to win a crappy trophy without cheating.

I have no sympathy for lame excuses. You picked a car, and they all have their weak spots. Race it legally or have the fortitude to race in a class where those changes are legal.

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Lesley, you are my hero!

Integrity.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rsportvolvo@Jan 24 2006, 10:32 AM
SCCA doesn't really care that much about IT or they would make it a National Class.

Sorry, but you failed logic in school. Or debating. or you're just flaming us for giggles. The two have NOTHING to do with each other! Duh. Have you sent in request to make it National? A plan perhaps? Did the club ignore it? What possible evidence do you have to support such a statement? Please, post responsibly.

Why not update the rules?

Why not read them!? As in YOU should read them. They are updated, on a constant basis. Then again, as you have stated, your judgement trumps the rulebook, so reading them would be a waste of time for you.

Like I said before, SCCA racing isn't what it used to be and never was

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Don't try to out Yogi Berra Yogi Berra.

[Bill Miller]

Don't try to out Yogi Berra Yogi Berra.

Best line in this whole thread!!! :P

[ITANorm]

Originally posted by latebrake@Jan 24 2006, 12:43 PM
If done right a diff pump and cooler can be a drysump trans. Less power loss.

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So can an oil cooler. SHHHHHH!

[bldn10]

"That's not the way I understand it Bill. The 13.9 is essentially a CoA ruling on rule. If you are protested, and the SOM hears the protest, and in spite of your 13.9, finds you non-compliant, winning the appeal will be a slam dunk. In addition, I would think the SOM would be admonished for disregarding an official rule interpretation.

On further examination it looks like I overlooked the words "penalties:" "Penalties or penalty points will not be assessed in the event of a negative ruling" So, the local SOM can uphold a protest; they just can't take any action against you. However, the 13.9 would not have the same effect for, say, you buddy who made the same changes you did based on your 13.9. He is screwed because any previous Rule interpretation by a COA is NOT binding on any subsequent one. This is the reason, once again, I advocate making COA opinions precedential. They should be archived and searchable. What is legal for one should be legal for all. And vice versa.