It's here...

[theenico]

Originally posted by Drew Aldred@Jan 21 2006, 10:14 PM
Nico,

Yes, I know where that car is. I sold it to Steve Nagle last season when trying to finish it was taking longer than I expected. (My fault, not the car's) It's painted up real pretty now, black with blue striping. He is not racing it, but he's holding it for his crew chief to race. I can find out the for sale status if you're interested. Motor's done, with new head and cam. Dash is out, etc so it's alot closer to being ready for Prod than IT.

Race cars never die, they just get different owners.

See ya at the Runoffs this year ????

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Hi Drew,

Don't worry about it. If they have gone to the trouble of finishing it for G-prod then I will just have to find another one. Oh well, you never know what the future holds .

I may actually make it to the runoffs this year since it will be in Kansas .

[snk328is]

Assuming that the top BMW runners have a lot of money to throw at their race cars, I can only imagine that they will work very hard to engineer an SIR that will lose as little HP as can be possibly lost.

So if the BMW's keep winning, what will happen next year? Will the intake restriction become smaller? Will weight be introduced at that point?

My racing budget for one weekend is less than $500. Buying an SIR and tuning (or buying a chip "upgrade") will force me to skip a race weekend. I raced three weekends last year and was planning on racing three times again this year.

I race a BMW but I am a budget racer in the true sense. (I drove my race car to all three races I participated in last year.) My annual tire budget is $600 (a set of Toyo RA-1's).

This new requirement hurts, to be honest, and I don't know that I want to spend the money for an SIR if I don't know that I have to spend the same money again for 2007. I spent about $130 last year on the required restrictor plate and the optional spacer and that wasn't too bad, but now it's useless. I guess I will have a nice paper weight though.

BMW CCA is requiring a H&N restraint beginning April 1 so I was faced with skipping one race weekend as it was already to finance the purchase of one (although I will admit that I would have waited to race until later in the season to see if ISAAC comes out with an SFI38.1 version of theirs). Will SCCA also require a H&N restraint next year?

I'm probably the exception and not the norm. Nevertheless, there's a good chance that SOWDIV will see one less ITS E36 racing this year. I think I'll take the money I saved and put it toward buying a kart. Afterall, a kart will probably fit in the back of my '98 K2500 Suburban that I just bought last month to begin towing my race car with...

[dickita15]

Originally posted by snk328is+Jan 22 2006, 12:32 AM-->

So if the BMW's keep winning, what will happen next year? Will the intake restriction become smaller? Will weight be introduced at that point?

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[/b]

we have been told that on track performance is not how changes are determined, if anything how a car does on track could only signal the ITAC to run the numbers on the car.

<!--QuoteBegin-snk328is@Jan 22 2006, 12:32 AM
I race a BMW but I am a budget racer in the true sense. (I drove my race car to all three races I participated in last year.)

[snapback]71573[/snapback]

yes the bad news is this will cost you money. the good news is that your car with it&#39;s limited engine development will most likely not go any slower with the sir. you should be closer to the big horsepower BMWs. if weight adjustment had been used it would have hurt you performance plus cost you more over the season in tires, brakes ect.

[Knestis]

Originally posted by dickita15@Jan 22 2006, 07:17 AM
... you should be closer to the big horsepower BMWs. if weight adjustment had been used it would have hurt you performance plus cost you more over the season in tires, brakes ect.

Interesting point, Dickita (cha, cha, cha).

I hadn&#39;t thought of it that way but I&#39;m still dubious about the SIR answer. I think we are underestimating the cost of the parts necessary to make it happen, even if not everyone opts to push the limit and completely re-tune to optimize to the new system. I&#39;m curious too, what this will look like in terms of tech inspection.

I remember when SIRs were first introduced to US sportscars, that even the "pro" teams had trouble with collapsing airboxes and such.

I have absolutely NO real evidence to support this but my sense is that the SIR choice was made because 325 owners squawked so loudly about how dangerous, scary, etc. their cars would be with 300# of lead: "Fine - have it your way. We&#39;ll do it without lead, so you can&#39;t use that defense."

Is this a case of, "be careful what you wish for?"

K

[dickita15]

I admit you are right Kirk. Not many on this board have much first hand knowledge about SIRs.

I think that the IT use of these will be a little easier that the prototype cars as we have a single point of air intake.

your point about getting what they asked for is well founded.

[924Guy]

I&#39;m a little late to the party, but wanted to just add my vote of thanks to the ITAC and CRB for the major effort to make sure IT continues to be a good place to race! I&#39;m one of those indirectly hurt by the changes, but I never wanted to race in a 1-car class! If I did, I&#39;d be racing in PCA...

[mlytle]

i&#39;ll ask again. what is the target hp this sir is supposed to limit to?

and why, if it is such a great way to limit internal engine cheating, wasn&#39;t it required on ALL its cars? that is what i had "asked for" in numerous previous threads. even for all and might have shared some of the experimentation costs.

and it ain&#39;t gonna be "only $350" to implement.

at least in gtl, they gave folks some notice on when it would be implemented.

[dj10]

Originally posted by snk328is@Jan 21 2006, 11:32 PM
So if the BMW&#39;s keep winning, what will happen next year?

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I guess you&#39;ll just have to SHOOT any GOOD BMW driver that might have a fast car!
dj

[xr4racer]

Having a SIR required on all ITS cars that have no chance in hell at making BMW power is the dumbest solution yet. It would be a decoration riding around on all ITS cars that would be doing absolutely nothing to any car making less than target HP. Even in GTL they realized putting the SIR on ex GT5 motors was an incredibly dumb idea. Example for ITS lets put a SIR on a 165 HP Mazda so it can not make over 225 HP.

Matt

[Campbell]

I too want to thank the CRB and ITAC. Even further I have a lot to thank the SCCA for.. since I run an ITB Scirocco I now have a lot of weight to lose. What is special about that? well not only have I met a lot of great people in the SCCA, if it weren&#39;t for the medical physical required every 2 years I would never, never go the doctor. Now to get to minimum weight I will have to lose this extra 30 lbs I have been carrying around - would I do it for my health? for my wife? so my clothes would fit? nope. Will I get fit to get those couple tenths? you betcha!! I am such a better person because of the SCCA!!! thanks again!

[67ITB]

A GIANT THANK YOU to all of you that put in a HUGE effort to make this happen.

So let’s see…..
In looking at the car I think I can easily find 60-70 lbs on the car to remove and then I will have to loose the 30(+) lbs I have put on since I got home last year.

Thanks again for the weight adjustment and for giving me a reason to get off my FAT rear and get back to the gym.

Matt Bal

[turboICE]

For those concerned about making it down to their new weight - why not ask that polycarbonate be allowed for glass replacement in IT?

[mlytle]

Originally posted by xr4racer@Jan 22 2006, 04:42 PM
Having a SIR required on all ITS cars that have no chance in hell at making BMW power is the dumbest solution yet. It would be a decoration riding around on all ITS cars that would be doing absolutely nothing to any car making less than target HP. Even in GTL they realized putting the SIR on ex GT5 motors was an incredibly dumb idea. Example for ITS lets put a SIR on a 165 HP Mazda so it can not make over 225 HP.

Matt

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now that post isn&#39;t very well thought out. the point is not to limit to the bmw power. the point of everyone running an sir is to limit every cars hp to whatever the magic formula horsepower number is FOR THAT PARTICULAR CAR. the cars all weight different, so the sir size would be different to force ALL cars to stay within their hp "box". it would not be a decoration riding around on non-bmw cars. any car can cheat, this puts a cap on the effect cheating will have.

[ed325its]

Originally posted by mlytle@Jan 23 2006, 02:02 AM
now that post isn&#39;t very well thought out. the point is not to limit to the bmw power. the point of everyone running an sir is to limit every cars hp to whatever the magic formula horsepower number is FOR THAT PARTICULAR CAR. the cars all weight different, so the sir size would be different to force ALL cars to stay within their hp "box". it would not be a decoration riding around on non-bmw cars. any car can cheat, this puts a cap on the effect cheating will have.

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Very well stated, especially considering the revelations in this thread that the SIR is needed because the BMW&#39;s are cheating by using M3 cams and some undeserving BMW racer won somewhere.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by ed325its@Jan 22 2006, 09:14 PM
Very well stated,especially considering the relevations in this thread that the SIR is needed because the BMW&#39;s are cheating by using M3 cams and some undeserving BMW racer won somewhere.

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Simply not true. Some BMW&#39;s may be cheating but I suspect no more than any other make.

The BMW&#39;s can make too much HP in legal IT prep for a 2850lb minimum weight. Simple as that. Limit it to about 220hp (crank) and you &#39;fit&#39; into ITS.

Pick your poison, you can weigh what you should given your HP potential, or keep your weight and limit your HP.

AB

[Bill Miller]

The weight reductions aren&#39;t only in ITS, and yes, it is known that the allowable weights may be impossible to acheive on certain cars.

Jake,

Wasn&#39;t this the reason that the New Beetle was put in ITC and not ITB, because it was felt that it couldn&#39;t make weight? I&#39;m sorry, but if you set a weight that a car can&#39;t make (at least get w/in 50# of), then it should probably be dropped a class.

As far as the SIR for the BMWs, the more I think about it, the more I think it was the wrong choice, and the more I think the BMW guys got another gimme. It&#39;s been stated by many on this board (some ITAC members, IIRC), that since the peak hp will be limited by the SIR, there&#39;s nothing to be gained by squeezing extra hp out of the motor, through development. That&#39;s created a case where you can potentially have <10/10ths efforts running up front, beating the guys that have tweaked their cars for all their worth, just to run at the front.

And it&#39;s funny to hear the BMW guys squak about it. Like I said, they should have just thrown the 250 - 300 lbs of lead at them, and been done with it. And back to the &#39;one category&#39;s rules being linked to another category&#39;s rules&#39; deal. What happens if (when?) the GT rule changes?

[ed325its]

Funny, I haven&#39;t heard any BMW guys squack about the rule; only ask questions which get summarily dismissed and dissed.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by ed325its@Jan 22 2006, 08:36 PM
Funny, I haven&#39;t heard any BMW guys squack about the rule; only ask questions which get summarily dismissed and dissed.

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Ed, I think several people have tried to offer information about the SIR and how it will work. I don&#39;t believe it has just been dismissed. You all have known some fix was coming so don&#39;t act shocked that it finally happened.

Bill, I am almost positive that the rules for the SIR will eventually have to be moved to the GCR. SIR&#39;s will be the furture I believe that and I think you will see more and more classes using them in the future.

Ed, I don&#39;t recall one single post saying this was a change to address cheating. If it were I would be against it. If there is a problem with cheating then a checkbook and a protest is the way to deal with that. AN E36 with an SIR and M3 cams would still be cheating and I would still be willing to pull it apart to prove it. The deal is your cars were misclassed and then got a rule change that benefited them more than any other model out there (ecu rules) your HP and torque numbers are well outside the window for ITS in a completely legal configuration and that&#39;s where the need for adjustment comes from.

[lateapex911]

I wasn&#39;t quoted, but I am sure it was my comments about illegal E36s that have been referred to. let me restate, or clarify.

The reason the SIR was chosen was NOT to keep cheating BMWs in check.

I referenced the M3 cams in my comments about the issue with nailing down the E36 hp. In discussions here, E36 guys have often cried foul, that the ITAC was getting bogus numbers on the car...that those numbers couldn&#39;t be reached legally.

The SIR renders that discussion moot.

Again, the decision to add the SIR wasn&#39;t based on one car, illegal or not, winning one race somewhere. It&#39;s a pure numbers deal.

And the goal, Bill, wasn&#39;t to make winners out of less than 100% prepped cars, but to solve a togh situation in a class and make it better for everyone.

If I was an ITS guy who didn&#39;t own an E36, I would be really thankful that the E36 was now "reachable", regardless of what they have to do, or spend, to run at the front.

Hopefully, drivers will now decide wins, not cars.

[ed325its]

Joe,

What about my statements makes you believe I am shocked by the change? The truth is I am not shocked by any actions in regard to the BMW&#39;s.

Please review Mr. Bettencourt&#39;s posts in this thread. He was very clear that the benefits of the SIR would protect the IT community from cheating. So, the questions asked by others are still valid, been left unanswered,and dismissed. Have the results of the SIR been tested? Why not apply SIR&#39;s to all cars? What is the target HP/weight for each class?

I&#39;ll add two more, why is the RX7 the annointed class of the field? Why are the formula and class parameters not open to public debate? (I know, I have been told repeated that the formula has been disclosed, but just repeating the mantra doesn&#39;t make it true. There is a big difference between disclosing a philosphy and a repeatable, by anyone, formula.)

I have and will readily admit that the E36 is fast. I would not have parked my podium finishing E30 and built an E36 otherwise. But the overdog to the E30 was not only the E36 but also the RX7. In my opinion the RX7 should also have been rained back to what was a varied and competitive field.

Do whatever you want with the E36. Ban it if you wish. Send it and the RX7 to another class. I&#39;ll just get out the E30 again. The E30 may have less power but it corners and brakes better than the E36.