It's here...

[stevel]

Jeremy did submit dyno sheets - and we thank him for it, but they prove nothing. The motor is far from built. Nicely tuned for what it is but come on, the data is irellevant, no?
[/b]

Yes, I would agree the dyno sheets of his car don't support this argument and not really valid data to base a change of weight on. I think the HP potential is fine for this car. I think it has enough power to keep up. Not optimal, but enough.

Smack dab in the wheelhouse of the process.
[/b]

agreed. I think it fits there. But HP isn't the whole story.

On to the brakes. Do you know what was a very competitive ITS car before the E36 325i/is obsoleted it? The E30 325i/is. Same sized front brakes, 2750lbs. You are gonna find a LOT of cars at a higher weight with the same sized or smaller brakes.
[/b]

I'm betting all of those heavier cars are all RWD, so the brake size doesn't have an effect on them because they don't have all that weight over the front axles.

Yes, the car is FWD but how can we quantify the issues?
[/b]

I don't know either.

And your 5th gear comment holds no water. Take a look at the RX-7 5th gear. WORSE. RX-7 is .76 and GSR is .79. 15 cars in ITS have a equal or worse fifth gear.
[/b]

Yeah, you got me there. Ok, so we throw that out.

We don't count FWD and weight distribution twice (unless it's something OBSCENE)
[/b]

Well then in this case I think it needs more of a break because it is FWD. I mean how many FWD cars are spec'd at that weight with those size brakes? I haven't looked, but I'm gonna guess none. This is a unique situation. Do you ever see FWD cars at the front in ITS? I haven't. Makes ya wonder. I think for ITS, the FWD needs to cut it more of a weight break. I really do.

Class dismissed... :P
[/b]

Hahaha! I don't think so buddy. Ok, concede me this. Do you think the RX7 is the middle ground that you (ITAC, CRB, whatever) is striving for when it comes to equalizing ITS? With how close these cars are on paper (power band and peak power, gearing, brakes, aero, etc), just given the fact that the Integra carries 270lbs more up front it needs the break just based on that! And when the car is 100lbs heavier than spec curb weight (i know, not a good way to base race weight, but it's a good indicator that the brakes weren't designed for that extra weight) so that extra weight on the front provides extra grip argument goes out the window buddy! To be honest. I really think this car needs a 100lb weight break for it to have a chance. In a completely objective sense that's what I really believe, completely based on the fact that it's a FWD platform at 2700lbs, with 60/40 weight distribution and 10.3" front brakes.

In the interest of full disclosure, Steve called me on his way home from work and we busted each others chops. Good debate - like I said, the system may not be perfect for everyones car but it is the SAME system.


[/b]

Yes, we did have a good laugh over this and we will continue to joke about this! But, for the rest of the people on here, I think I have some valid points as to why this car needs to weigh less. Though, it seems I'm alone in this.

Jeremy, the good news is I think that LRP is a great track for this car to excel. Not much braking, though with all the right turns that front left will take a beating. But, of all the tracks in the NE, I think LRP is where this car will shine.

s

[Joe Harlan]

OK, so we can agree that these are just your thoughts. What you are proposing is a comp adjustment.
Jeremy did submit dyno sheets - and we thank him for it, but they prove nothing. The motor is far from built. Nicely tuned for what it is but come on, the data is irellevant, no?
I use 14% but it's not germaine to the process as it operates on crank numbers. If you want to use 180 as the pinnacle and 14% correction - guess what??? 209.3 crank hp. Smack dab in the wheelhouse of the process.
The issue over the course of the race (how long is too long?). The Integra is also one of the best handling FWD car on the planet. On to the brakes. Do you know what was a very competitive ITS car before the E36 325i/is obsoleted it? The E30 325i/is. Same sized front brakes, 2750lbs. You are gonna find a LOT of cars at a higher weight with the same sized or smaller brakes. Yes, the car is FWD but how can we quantify the issues? And your 5th gear comment holds no water. Take a look at the RX-7 5th gear. WORSE. RX-7 is .76 and GSR is .79. 15 cars in ITS have a equal or worse fifth gear.



We don't count FWD and weight distribution twice (unless it's something OBSCENE), your 5th gear is moot, and the crank hp is equal to 180whp already...so we have the original two - do they cancel out? I don't think so. But if you subtract 50lbs for a net loss, you get within 1lb of it's spec weight.

Class dismissed... :P Just kidding Dog!

And AGAIN, curb weight has little to NOTHING to do with spec weight...only a sanity check to make sure someting can GET to spec weight.

In the interest of full disclosure, Steve called me on his way home from work and we busted each others chops - and he knows all of this is here. Good debate - like I said, the system may not be perfect for everyones car but it is the SAME imperfect system.

AB
[/b]

Hahahaha....The 240z has the worst 5th gear of all.......

Steve please....Enough about the brakes. 240sx 10.1 inch and the same basic pad same basic weight. I have asked what pads and how much cooling. I have a GSR customer out here that I sell Hawks to and once we got him dialed he buys 2 sets a season from me. There is more going on here than your sharing. Again it does not sound like a lot of direct exoerience with this car. OBTW the 240sx is 55/45 so RWD can have crappy weight distribution also. As has been stated the GSR is one of the best handling FWDs out there. I have spent 2 days at Mido in an RSX school cars and I have been told the handling is pretty close. I was completely shocked that a FWD car could drive that well.

Also since everything else is stock in this car I would assume a stock final drive?

[R RACER]

They are out there. They haven't won much.
Potential power advantage over what? An RX7. I thought we established they're about as idential as you can get as far as power, torque and the overall powerband. I think because of this and the detriment that it's powertrain layout has it warrants a decent weight break.
Exactly. I think it needs about an 80lb break.
There are several guys in the country that have tons of knowledge on these motors. And the motor Serra brought to the ARRC last year, I believe wasn't built by him. And it's not a huge secret who it is. And even that guy isn't gonna break 180hp to the wheels. The VTEC motor is topped out. The non-vtec variant that he's been able to get so much gains from leaves a lot more on the table, and actually has a much better torque curve. Though again, I don't think power output has ever been the problem.
Hmmm, sounds like a detriment to me. Let's see. The guys running the ITA version of the 94-99 chassis are already saying how the extra weight they're gonna have to run now is gonna be hard to keep the brakes until the end of the race. And I don't think that's gonna be unfounded. Now, you've got 135lbs more and you're going to be trying to slow down from a higher speed with the extra power you've got with the same size brakes as the ITA car. Yup, sounds like the GSR doesn't have a chance to me to keep up with the pack the whole race.

Time will tell and I know you can't balance it on the head of a pin, but if you compare this car to the RX7, I don't see how you can say that the GSR DOESN'T deserve a weight break.

All IMHO.

s
[/b]

Well I don't know who you are, but you seem to think you know alot about me and what I do. But unless you were sitting behind my back, I have personally built my engines that I have run at the ARRC including the 04&05 motors.I have tuned many cars that were built to the hilt, including some GSR's only to find big power gains in a properly tuned exhaust and ecu.I will not share numbers, but theses cars can make good power, if they are set up properly, a shorty exhaust totally kills the torque on those motors, in fact I tuned a well known ITS car that was a (fully built car) only to find he was leaving 10+ hp at the wheels with a fully built motor and his number was north of 185,brakes are not a problem if bias and pad compound combo's are set front to rear,in fact last years 05 arrc winner in ITA was using the same pads I run and he can attest to how well they work. I wouldn't nail the coffin shut on that car dump 60-90lbs off of it and it would be a worthy contender.As far as the A Integra's the weight is not going to affect its performance at all, if you guys are worried about running out of brakes in short sprint races, your running some old technology pads, or holding on to that middle pedal to long,you want to go fast in a fwd Acura brake balance is key.If any of you guys would like any help my contact numbers are readily available.The fact is no one has really built one of these cars to its full potential, I would give it a try but we have too much on our table right now.

Anthony Serra

[stevel]

Steve please....Enough about the brakes.
[/b]

Well Joe, that's a pretty big part of my argument and I think completely valid. And I had to keep mentioning the brakes because I had to get you off the topic of HP, which I was never concerned about.

240sx is 55/45 so RWD can have crappy weight distribution also.
[/b]

5% of 2700lbs is 135lbs, most of that hanging over the front axle.

There is more going on here than your sharing.
[/b]

Joe, I have no clue what you're talking about. I have no conspiracy here. And I don't have an interest in a particular race car, just trying to make a valid set of reasons about why I think this car needs to drop weight. Other than that, I don't know what you're talking about.

I have spent 2 days at Mido in an RSX school cars and I have been told the handling is pretty close. I was completely shocked that a FWD car could drive that well.
[/b]

Actually, the Integra handles a lot better than those. The RSX's have mac strut fronts, and honda didn't do a great job with the design. The integra is a MUCH better handling car.

Also since everything else is stock in this car I would assume a stock final drive?
[/b]

Ummm, Jeremy's car? Probably. But that car hasn't been used as a data point in any of my arguments.


Edit: Really, I have no interest in this other than It would be nice to see different cars at the front. Really, that's all. I brought this car up because I know about them a little bit. I presented my case and that's about all there is to it. I hope I didn't stir the pot too much (well, that's always fun) but kept it constructive and light hearted. This is about all I've got in the tank as far as points to make. Take it as you will. I just thought it would be interesting to bring up and hear the pros/cons.

s

[zracre]

You dont see alot of FWD cars in ITS because, simply they can rarely win! They are too heavy (GSR), FWD, and have less torque then the ITA version. The Prelude has a 250# passenger permanently bolted to it. the VR6 cars seem to make great power but again, FWD and heavy. I just think the board hates FWD in ITS!! haha just kidding but why cant they be equal?? There is no way a fully prepped ITS Integra driven by Randy Pobst (or add your fav pro fwd racer here) can hang with a fully prepped RX7/BMW/240Z/Mercedes 190E 2.3 16v (well maybe just Mikes car...very developed) with another pro driver (well say Boris Said) for very long. 4cyl= not enough torque for ITS=mid pack car with full effort. Yes I bought a GSR and yes I will try to make it fast. I have beaten plenty of GSR's in my A car and qualify pretty good in ITS with it (5th to 10th) in fields of 60+ cars. I would like to see what it will do...

[Joe Harlan]

You dont see alot of FWD cars in ITS because, simply they can rarely win! They are too heavy (GSR), FWD, and have less torque then the ITA version. The Prelude has a 250# passenger permanently bolted to it. the VR6 cars seem to make great power but again, FWD and heavy. I just think the board hates FWD in ITS!! haha just kidding but why cant they be equal?? There is no way a fully prepped ITS Integra driven by Randy Pobst (or add your fav pro fwd racer here) can hang with a fully prepped RX7/BMW/240Z/Mercedes 190E 2.3 16v (well maybe just Mikes car...very developed) with another pro driver (well say Boris Said) for very long. 4cyl= not enough torque for ITS=mid pack car with full effort. Yes I bought a GSR and yes I will try to make it fast. I have beaten plenty of GSR's in my A car and qualify pretty good in ITS with it (5th to 10th) in fields of 60+ cars. I would like to see what it will do...
[/b]

DOn't tell P.D. that a FWD can't hang.....

Steve, Your right a FWD does not change direction as quickly because if the weight but the deal is Slow the car down a little more and you back in the loud pedal 10 ft before RWD. IF the Gsr will out handle the RSX I would say I would be impressed.

And yes this is spirited debate and nothing is meant as personal.

[stevel]

Well I don't know who you are, but you seem to think you know alot about me and what I do.
[/b]

Nope. Don't know you and don't pretend to. It's what I heard thru the grapevine and I didn't really put much stock into it being true anyways. I don't like to spread misinformation but that part of the discussion didn't have much to do with any of the points I was making. If it's untrue, I apologize for even saying it.

You bring up some good points and glad to see more added to the discussion.

s

[lateapex911]

So, Anthony, let me make sure I understand your post. Here's the distilled version i got.

Power of the ITS car could be nearly 10 over the 185 figure, once the right exhaust and the correct ECU tuning are done. Motec? Other?

You think the handling of the car is equal to the competition.

And you think the brakes will work fine, once the proper pad combination, cooling and bias settings are resolved.

Now that the BMW has been, in theory, reeled back, is this car competitive with the standard bearers of the class, the RX-7 and the 240Z?

if not is it 50 pounds heavy? or 100? Why...??

[Andy Bettencourt]

Serra - stop posting here and get to work on those RSX motors!



Bellingham, MA

"FOM to build GSR for ITS in conjunction with MSN..."

AB

[R RACER]

Hey Jake long time no see!, well the BMW has been killed, the restrictor is going to hurt, beacuse the guys without the (built) motors are going to suffer big time, and the ones with the (experience)or built motors will figure out on how to get around the restrictor, it leave ITS a little more open I think the ITS Integra has a chance on any weekend regionals (arrc is another story though) you can get the power ,but it will be expensive to do it , more importantly the whole package handling and brakes would have to be spot on. 2600 lbs would be the right number for the car , it really should be 2500 but that will never happen,Write the letters and see what happens, there are so many of them out there, but too many guys don't want to play, but it should be car that should be given a break at this point.The real thing that bothers me right now is how the CRB and BOD figured on how the Integra's & CRX's are supposed to add the big weight without it being dangerous. I have a 100lbs on the pass floor of my DC2 and the floor can't take much more.My conversations with Andy this morning are an imprortant thing to consider,There should be ballast boxes approved to go in place of the front pass stock seat locations in these cars. This is a dangerous situation that needs to be dealt with,bolting spare tires and other (special brackets) are going to make for some real good flying objects if you have a serious off.Has there been any testing on the SIR's on the BMW's? how will they get air flow to them to make them effective? There seems to be alot of holes in this new structure, why is the 1.8 Miata 300lbs lighter than my car? Because of the cage? hmm we will have to see. I will continue to develop my DC2 cars and my customers cars, we were on the dyno for 10hrs this week, and we are at the end of the curve in ITA and the CRX's are definelty done too.I'm all for tightening up things but there should have been a bit of field testing before it was set in ink. Thats just my opinion, not a fact.The truth of the matter (had this discussion the other night with Jake) I think the guys with the lower prepped cars are going to suffer the most from the changes, so intstead of closing the gap its going to get wider.The people willing to spend the money and time & effort are always going to come out on top.I expect a decline in entries from this, BMW guys are definetly going to go other places if the cars end up being slow, and there are other series for Honda's to run in that look good also.Be ready IT could be changed forever who knows the Miata's and 240's or 325 e's could be the car to have this year.The first set of race results from all the regions should be interesting.

Andy,

I'm working on it, but I miss being in IT land and figured I would come knock on the hornets nest.You better be careful , there are going to be alot of guys throwing tater tots at you in the NHIS cafeteria come April , and I won't even have to pay them to do it.Its going to be fun rubbin up that new paint on your jelly bean car. Thats if I can ever make it back.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy,

I'm working on it, but I miss being in IT land and figured I would come knock on the hornets nest.You better be careful , there are going to be alot of guys throwing tater tots at you in the NHIS cafeteria come April , and I won't even have to pay them to do it.Its going to be fun rubbin up that new paint on your jelly bean car. Thats if I can ever make it back. [/b]

I love tater tots...and the Miata is 240 lbs lighter, not 300 - but you can have that 60 for the GSR!



AB

[lateapex911]

Anthony....I agree that, in each model affected, the gulf between the "haves" and the "have nots", will possibly grow. More weight will hut the guys who can't develop completely, but I think we differ on the amount of hurt the lesser develoed guys will feel. As you said, thats always the way in racing. But.....I think that in each class, there will be more models that have a shot. And I really don't think that the changes will make losers out of winners. I have no doubts that (if you can find the time between the Pro races you guys are doing, to field an IT car), you'll be right there in your usual spot. Hopefully though, there will be more guys, in different models, nipping at your heels, maybe even a jellybean!

yea, getting around the restrictor is possible, just like it is now, but less so, and the SIR will require flat out cheating.

I hear you on the weight issue. Your old red car (the teg you sold last year) always was a bit overweight if I recall correctly. Ray lee Chee says he's always 60 or so over.. Anyway, I seem to recall a rules discussion about ballast location and attachment. Not sure what happened to that. Maybe a letter to the CRb is in order. I like the idea of utilzing the pass seat mount structure where possible.

I hope you're wrong on less entries ...I hope we don't see guys leaving because they no longer have the big dog. The changes shouldn't make other dogs the big ones, just all dogs equal. If guys are leaving, I think it will be because they aren't the type that want to really race for the win.

The 1.8 Miata is at that weight because the process plus adders and subtractors put it there. I think it will be a good choice with the strong factory support, but it still has achilles heels, like all cars.

Getting back to ITS, you think the Teg GSR weight should be 2600? Thats what, 80-90 off? With over 190 at the wheels, thats interesting. What torque could you make? Where is that cars weakness? Why won't the guys play, LOL??(If they only want to race against their own kind, well thats another thing, but if the car is a contender, whats the issue?

Thanks for the input.

When can we go back and see some more tapes? Maybe after your first GA race?

[Fred Fox]

Ok, so here's my numbers. RX7 - 50/50 weight distribution. GSR - 60/40 weight distribution. At 2700lbs, that's 270lbs more on the front end![/b]

Wouldn't that be an advantage for the GSR in the wet? Better braking? I'd say here in the NE about 1 in 10 events are wet, so 10% of the time FWD might have the advantage. I know some places in the country it basically never rains. Small point, but should at least be considered in the adders/subtractors part of the formula.

[Greg Amy]

...so 10% of the time FWD might have the advantage.[/b]

And 90% of the time it gets its ass handed to it on a plate...

[Jeremy Billiel]

I 100% agree that my car can not be used as a benchmark. I also 100% agree that no one in the country has a "professionally" built one yet either. However, as Anthony has said, there is a very large market for GSR's and everyone that I talk to about joining ITS says word for word "Are you crazy? It's waaay to heavy to be competitive." I think a best case scenario is to give it a weight break, get more ITS GSR's in here and if the car begins to excel then pull it back a little. Bottom line the way I see it, this car will never be developed, as many Honda/Acura guys will play with NASA with much better weights.

If the GSR will only win 10% of the time in the rain, why would anyone want to build it?

This is the end of my arguments, I guess I am one of the only a handfull of suckers who wanted to give ITS a try. There is always next year for adjustments! <Rant off>

[Joe Harlan]

I 100% agree that my car can not be used as a benchmark. I also 100% agree that no one in the country has a "professionally" built one yet either. However, as Anthony has said, there is a very large market for GSR&#39;s and everyone that I talk to about joining ITS says word for word "Are you crazy? It&#39;s waaay to heavy to be competitive." I think a best case scenario is to give it a weight break, get more ITS GSR&#39;s in here and if the car begins to excel then pull it back a little. Bottom line the way I see it, this car will never be developed, as many Honda/Acura guys will play with NASA with much better weights.

If the GSR will only win 10% of the time in the rain, why would anyone want to build it?

This is the end of my arguments, I guess I am one of the only a handfull of suckers who wanted to give ITS a try. There is always next year for adjustments! <Rant off>
[/b]

Jeremy, was that a rant?....

You bring back some actual data and then we will rant. I just read a few posts back someone say these things could make north of a 185HP. I am ok with my estimates. The real deal is this car will not and should not be made an overdog just to attract NASA folks. It should be allowed to be competitive (which I think it is) with Z&#39;s and Mazdas and E30&#39;s and finally the E36. I know you guys don&#39;t agree but spend some money on a really good head do a little work on the exhaust and you&#39;ll be close than you are buy a bunch.

Also try the Hawk HT10&#39;s in the front and some hawk blacks in the rear on that thing. Get good airflow through the rotor.

[zracre]

Getting back to ITS, you think the Teg GSR weight should be 2600? Thats what, 80-90 off? With over 190 at the wheels, thats interesting. What torque could you make? Where is that cars weakness? Why won&#39;t the guys play, LOL??(If they only want to race against their own kind, well thats another thing, but if the car is a contender, whats the issue?

Thanks for the input.

When can we go back and see some more tapes? Maybe after your first GA race?
[/b]

Wow!!1 were up to over 190 at the wheels!!!!!

[Fred Fox]

If I had a GSR I&#39;d do whatever Anthony said to get that 195 rwhp, then find the best brakes and cooling possible, then I&#39;d go qualify the hell outta that sucker before the tires and brakes heated up. I&#39;d be on the grid in front of the RX-7, then race slow in and w-i-d-e, save my brakes and tires, take away his momentum going in and then pull him off the corner with my better power/weight. Piece a cake.

[lateapex911]

Wow!!1 were up to over 190 at the wheels!!!!!
[/b]

Well, actually, if you do some less conservative math from Anthony&#39;s comment here:

......in fact I tuned a well known ITS car that was a (fully built car) only to find he was leaving 10+ hp at the wheels with a fully built motor and his number was north of 185, brakes are not a problem......[/b]

....you get over 195. But as he didn&#39;t quote a specific number, I thought it&#39;s best to be conservative.

I&#39;m not looking over his shoulders during development, but I do know that you see Anthony at most of the possible test days, that he spends a lot of time dyno testing alternative items, and that he has the data aq to tell him lots of things that lots of us just talk about. Last year he mentioned he found a "a few HP" by downsizing his exhaust pipe(s). Not sure which ones, or how much, but the results consistently speak for themselves. If he infers the car can do those numbers, who am I to argue?

[Geo]

The other thing that amazes me is the GSR listed weight in the GCR is 2690 where on edmonds.com the curb weight is 2529lbs. If you eliminated everything else out of the argument, this alone is a good one. Why should I have to add 160lbs from the curb weight?

http://www.edmunds.com/used/1995/acura/int...8405/specs.html
[/b]

Since when does curb weight factor in?