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Thread: G Production Proposal

  1. #21
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    Here is an update.

    I contacted Jeremy at the National Office and he recommends that I submit a VTS allong with my proposal letter. So, I will start working on this part of the proposal.

    Over the weekend I had the opportunity to meet with a number of racers and bounce this idea off of them. All responses were favorable even from drivers that have a vested interest in G Productiion now. One made the comment that he would always like to have more cars to race with.

    I have some business travel this week and next so I may be delayed in this process some what. However, when I have my package ready to submit I will let the list know. I will also post the final proposal to the list as well. Letters of support to the CRB will go along way towards getting a yes instead of a no.

    As an asside, what about a non-ported, IT Induction 13B 84-85 RX7 in F Production?

    Thanks for all of the discussion regarding this.
    Scott Peterson
    KC Region
    83 RX7
    STU #17

  2. #22
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    Scott, Mark Coffin linked this thread to the Production site.
    Have Fun ; )
    David Dewhurst
    CenDiv Milwaukee Region
    Spec Miata #14

  3. #23
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    Originally posted by ddewhurst@Jan 16 2006, 06:55 PM
    Scott, Mark Coffin linked this thread to the Production site.
    [snapback]71041[/snapback]
    Yes, I did. I thought it was important that the folks who would be MOST AFFECTED by this proposal at least be made aware of it. The majority of the prod folks don't visit this site (at least not regularly).

    MC
    Mark Coffin
    #14 FP VW Scirocco
    Former ITC roustabout...

  4. #24
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    Mark, I have no issues with this thread being posted on the Production site. It's to bad more people from H & G Production don't provide positive input when someone is trying to get a car classed. I wish Scott the best with his request & I will forward a letter supporting his request for classing the car.

    Have Fun ; )
    David Dewhurst
    CenDiv Milwaukee Region
    Spec Miata #14

  5. #25
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    Originally posted by racer14itc@Jan 16 2006, 07:09 PM
    Yes, I did. I thought it was important that the folks who would be MOST AFFECTED by this proposal at least be made aware of it. The majority of the prod folks don't visit this site (at least not regularly).

    MC
    [snapback]71045[/snapback]
    Thanks Mark.

    In the past I have tried to get a log on to the Production site but I never got a confirmation e-mail. So I was wondering how I could get this on that site. Anyway, it should be interesting to see what is posted.

    BTW, what kind of HP numbers do Suziki Swifts generate?
    Scott Peterson
    KC Region
    83 RX7
    STU #17

  6. #26
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    G Prod = Spec Spridget (Apologies to'Suzuki Jon&#39

    ... I've heard G Prod guys brag about spending $10K+ for their engines. Is that really something to brag about? For something that might last a season?

    Maybe the Runoffs format should change. Include ITS, ITA, ITB and ITC in the list of eligible classes. They already have nationally standardized rules, much like SM had in '05. Open the Runoffs up to a specified number of classes and take the classes which have the best participation numbers.

    Chris T. - Get a nationally standardized set of Spec 7 rules and see what happens to some of the dismally subscribed classes. We can always use some more F&C and P&G workers from the ranks of sidelined drivers.

    Changing the Runoffs format could have another effect. If drivers are required to keep running for points through the end of the regular season, total participation numbers should increase for each event. More people sharing the financial load. Also, the need to run more events to protect or improve the points position will make engine reliability more appealing.

    This is America. Home of the Free Market Economy. (SCCA excepted?)

    Jeff

  7. #27

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    G Prod = Spec Spridget (Apologies to'Suzuki Jon&#39
    Not anymore! Have you watched any of the Runoffs Production races lately? Especially in G Prod. There are lots of different car makes with the potential to win in that class now.... Ok, three or four right now. Not one of them is a Spridget.

    TWO, VW's finished in the top five this year !

    Jay
    Who does NOT race a VW...well, maybe once !
    Jay G.
    86 HP CRX

  8. #28
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    Ok , I know I’m going to get hate mail after this post but I have to say my piece. First off for those who don’t know me I’ve been driving a first gen now going on 5 years. Raced in ITA, IT7 , EP and 12 hour enduros. All in a first gen. Was in the 2004 runoffs in the sister car to Tom Thrash and help him in 2004 with some of the development on his 2005 pole sitting car. Now I have raced my ITA car as an EP. No slicks, no motor , no brakes…just ITA trim. I can’t for the life of me wonder why in the world you guys would want to run in GP ….with a stock motor no less. Guys, I’m telling you the cost difference your are all talking about is mute. If you think it will be cheaper to build a stock motor….dream on …the dyno time alone will make your head spin. Transmissions will still need rebuilt , the slicks will see to that and on and on. The grass is not greener it is the same just maybe a different variety. To win or at least do well will require the same prep and expense for all the different classes. EP is where the car belongs and a properly prepped ITA RX7 can win in ITA if driven properly.

    Roland Hahn

  9. #29
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    Originally posted by Hahn63@Jan 18 2006, 10:52 AM
    ....... ITA RX7 can win in ITA if driven properly.

    Roland Hahn
    [snapback]71172[/snapback]
    Roland, bring your ITA 7, your talent, and all your tricks to Road Atlaanta and run the ARRC against the likes of the Mosers, Serra, et al, and then make that statement.

    Fact is that an RX-7 has never been close for even a lap there, and the 7s that run have some real trick stuff, and have shared some intense development and competition for years. It's hard to think that they've left 2 seconds or more per lap on the shelf.

    On top of that, look at the basic facts. A CRX has better torque, puts down the same power, has a better suspension....and weighs hundreds less! 240 pounds less! Physics is physics.

    Sure, an RX-7 can win, heck even mine has, but it was in the rain.

    Sorry to say, you may be correct on your other points, but you are all wet on that one.
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
    for sale: 2003 Audi A4 Quattro, clean, serviced, dark green, auto, sunroof, tan leather with 75K miles.
    IT-7 #57 RX-7 race car
    Porsche 1973 911E street/fun car
    BMW 2003 M3 cab, sun car.
    GMC Sierra Tow Vehicle
    New England Region
    lateapex911(at)gmail(dot)com


  10. #30
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    [quote]
    Jake, I’m sure your information is correct. Certain tracks, with certain cars and certain drivers may yield an unbeatable combination. Road Atlanta may be a good example of that concept . My point isn’t that the RX7 isn’t most of the time an underdog in IT but it’s production counter part is properly placed in production world and very viable as presented by Mr. Thrash.

    If I ever build a non enduro ITA 7, I’ll be sure to come down and help see if we can’t find those two plus seconds for all the 7’s .

    Roland

  11. #31
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    ***My point isn’t that the RX7 isn’t most of the time an underdog in IT but it’s production counter part is properly placed in production world***

    Roland, I'll not get into prep/maintance numbers with you but I'll ask you a question. My track time numbers would show the same thing anyone elses numbers would show & the numbers would show that a 1st gen RX-7 ITA car can race (note I didn't say win) on a momentum track. END of story.

    Would you call the E Production rotor motor an IT motor ?

    How do you think the 1st gen RX-7 non-ported would stack up against the Honda CRX that is classed in F Production when the Honda CRX eats the 7's stuff at every track in ITA form ?

    Just maybe some of us who are looking at the 1st gen RX-7 are saying let's class it with a Limited Prep IT motor.
    Have Fun ; )
    David Dewhurst
    CenDiv Milwaukee Region
    Spec Miata #14

  12. #32
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    Originally posted by ddewhurst@Jan 18 2006, 07:52 PM

    Roland, I'll not get into prep/maintance numbers with you

    [snapback]71182[/snapback]

    David, When someone builds a $40,000 plus ITA RX7 and still can't run up front then will talk. I have yet to see one built to the max. Some are getting there but not quite. You'll have performance in the $$$$$ and the time to prep the car is the major factors. Not saying no one is trying or doing it well....just not there yet. The only thing we are talking about between an EP and a GP is about $5000. I'm not talking the total price of the car just the difference between the cost of a good stock motor and a ported one. Everything else would be the same, shocks ,trans, bodywork and so on...why would you build a GP ? I ask the question again , why would one want to spend all that money to run a stock engine car. I don't want to get in to the ITA who can win and who can't and is the RX7 able to do it. I run mainly endurance racing with my 7 and kick the CRX on a regular basis. Just don't understand the GP thing.....

    Roland

  13. #33
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    A couple points....

    On the ITA thing...first, "not quite there yet"....do you really think that a car that is extremely popular, and has had many large firms spend time and money developing, could be developed THAT much further? TWO seconds is a LOT of time at the sharp end of a cars development edge. ZThe 7 has been around for 20 years, and firms like Racing Beat, ISC, G-Force Engineering, Mazdatrix have spent buckets of time and money...

    When you put the best of the best against the best of the best, on real tracks, it just can't keep up. Period. THere ARE a few guys who can, on certain tracks, but as is stands right now, it is NOT a contender in ITA, like the CRX, the Integra, the 240SX are, and the Miata 1.6 (and soon the 1.8), the SER, the NX2000, and the Neon will prove to be.

    If I read you correctly, the difference you attribute to the prep mods required to run fast in EP vs GP is $5000. thats a bunch of money, and there is significant development that goes with the allowance to port a rotary. You either have to know what to do, or figure it out. The more variables you roll into the equation, the more time is spent on engineering.

    I won't pretend to know the specifics of whether the car is a good fit with an IT motor in G or Ff or wherever, but I can see some logic in doing less work and spending less money, but going a little slower.

    On the other hand, it does blur the line between Prod and IT, in an attempt to help Prods numbers. maybe at the expense of IT, and i'm not sure thats entirely healthy. I would prefer fresh conquests.
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
    for sale: 2003 Audi A4 Quattro, clean, serviced, dark green, auto, sunroof, tan leather with 75K miles.
    IT-7 #57 RX-7 race car
    Porsche 1973 911E street/fun car
    BMW 2003 M3 cab, sun car.
    GMC Sierra Tow Vehicle
    New England Region
    lateapex911(at)gmail(dot)com


  14. #34
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    I posted this on the Prod board. Figured it fit with the current discussion.

    So are we talking about racing an "IT" car in production or adding a new production car?
    The way I read the proposal is

    Clutch and flywheel are open, transmission is open, driveshaft is open, glass can be replaced with plastic, fiberglass body panels are allowed, new wheels with proper offsets to fit new body panels.

    I don't see any big savings between this proposal and EP. Just the porting and rotating assembly work. If I am interpreting this proposal incorrectly please let me know. If it is a true (everything IT legal) plus slicks, Then that wouldn't be a bad thing.

  15. #35
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    ***Would you call the E Production rotor motor an IT motor ?***

    Nobody have a desire to answer the above ^ question.

    ***Just maybe some of us who are looking at the 1st gen RX-7 are saying let's class it with a Limited Prep IT motor.***





    Have Fun ; )
    David Dewhurst
    CenDiv Milwaukee Region
    Spec Miata #14

  16. #36
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    ***Would you call the E Production rotor motor an IT motor ?***

    Nobody have a desire to answer the above ^ question.

    ***Just maybe some of us who are looking at the 1st gen RX-7 are saying let's class it with a Limited Prep IT motor.***
    An EP rotary motor is not an IT motor.
    A first gen RX7 built within production rules with a limited prep IT motor is not an IT car. It is an E PRODUCTION car with an IT motor less clutch and flywheel

  17. #37
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    How about this. allow all current(first gen) production allowances and this is the spec line...Allow lightening of the rotating mass. No port modifications, and 12a brakes

  18. #38
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    Scott & readers, the following was posted by Jesse Prather (yes, motor shop but we ain't going to get this classing deal completed withoput the support of some KNOWN [sorry Scott] people.) on the Production site. Getting Dave Lemon & Mike V. from ISC racing would also help. Dave & Jesse worked on some serious words & pictures & presented for the description of Street Port to the CRB. Don't recall the results from the CBR/BoD but as porting stood previous nothing described Street Porting dimensionally......... The thing that is important to the IT rotor motor (all motors) is that it's an air pump. Air is allowed in & air is allowed out. The classing proposal at this time allows zero porting per the IT motor rules. But there is still a lot of increases that come from the carb, intake manifold & the exhaust. I my humble judgement we (Scott) need to include in the classing request (even tho the info falls under rotor motor IT rules) alternate intake manifold & carbs that allow increasing or decreasing air flow. We need to SHOW that we are not trying to get a class beater including providing a process to slow the car or speed up the car. I know for sure that a Spec 7 car with the OEM cast iron exhaust outlet ain't going to beat a G Production car. I can't say horsepower because then the nay sayers will jump on their white horse & ride to Topeka. Yes, I am making light of the nay sayers (not ment to be a personal putdown) but if the car is classed I will do my IT car to the max G Production car allowed & do my best to make the car proud.


    Posted by Jesse:

    Whew, you guys are really after it this time. Sounds like groundhog day again.

    When I discuss the potential of a certain car, I like to use the fastest of a certain group of cars for the "bar". Take an ITA first gen car. Require stock fenders and an 8 X 13 inch slick which I believe will fit under the body work. Limited prep suspension just like IT and you have a starter GP car. This car will NOT beat a front running GP car.

    You can start with a stock transmission only and adjust as needed. Basically an IT7 car with slicks.

    I won't get into HP numbers because those don't prove jack.


    On the other hand, I don't see the first gen. RX7 as a savior for any class anymore. They did the job for EP and now have gone away in the BIG numbers we used to see. FP is the up and coming class now.

    There is an exemption for the rotary engine in all classes to run pump gas. On the plus side. An IT7 engine will run for multiple years if treated properly without a rebuild. I do hate those pesky Nikki carbs though. I would go for a Weber 48IDA and start the chokes small to start with. If the CRB would every consider this I could come up with some dyno information that is used on a certain National Champonship GP car and do some IT 12A work. Hmmm. We'll see. Sounds too logical.
    Have Fun ; )
    David Dewhurst
    CenDiv Milwaukee Region
    Spec Miata #14

  19. #39
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    David,I think this is a good thing and worth the effort. Best of luck and I will be watching for sure. 944 E/P

    Lawrence

  20. #40
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    Originally posted by Hahn63@Jan 18 2006, 03:52 PM
    Ok , I know I?m going to get hate mail after this post but I have to say my piece. First off for those who don?t know me I?ve been driving a first gen now going on 5 years. Raced in ITA, IT7 , EP and 12 hour enduros. All in a first gen. Was in the 2004 runoffs in the sister car to Tom Thrash and help him in 2004 with some of the development on his 2005 pole sitting car. Now I have raced my ITA car as an EP. No slicks, no motor , no brakes?just ITA trim. I can?t for the life of me wonder why in the world you guys would want to run in GP ?.with a stock motor no less. Guys, I?m telling you the cost difference your are all talking about is mute. If you think it will be cheaper to build a stock motor?.dream on ?the dyno time alone will make your head spin. Transmissions will still need rebuilt , the slicks will see to that and on and on. The grass is not greener it is the same just maybe a different variety. To win or at least do well will require the same prep and expense for all the different classes. EP is where the car belongs and a properly prepped ITA RX7 can win in ITA if driven properly.

    Roland Hahn
    [snapback]71172[/snapback]
    Roland,

    Thanks for your response but I have to respectifully disagree. My years of building and racing cars has taught me that in general the faster a car goes the more expensive it costs to build and operate. To be sure a Full Prep H Prod car may cost more than a E Prod LP RX7. However when comparing apples to apples I cannot see how this proposed G Prod RX7 could cost as much as a similarly well turned out E Prod RX7. Right away you lose the cost of porting, 15" wheels and tires, body work and the absolute necessity to have a purpose built racing transmission.

    As far as the competitivness in ITA....while I am new to IT as a participant I am not new to IT as a spectator and crew member. The golden years for a first gen RX7 in ITA are over. But this is foder for another 100 post argument.

    So I guess the Miata only belongs in E Production too? What about the F Production Miata. That car will get REAL popular in the next few years. Not trying to be argumentative but there are several cars in multiple classes and I am just looking for the same opportunity for the car I own.

    Thanks again for your posts.




    Scott Peterson
    KC Region
    83 RX7
    STU #17

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