G Production Proposal

[mustanghammer]

I realize this is not the Produciton list but the car that I am proposing for G Production would most likely be an IT car first. I am seeking suggestions and most of all support for this proposal.

Here is what I will be sending to the CRB:

************************************************** ***************

Dear Sirs:

This is a request for the classification of the 79-85 12A Mazda RX7 into G Production as a limited preparation car with an Improved Touring engine. I am making this request because I believe the performance parameters of the 12A RX7 are a good fit for G Production. I also believe that other cars currently listed in G Production set a precedent for the inclusion of the 12A RX7. Specifically these “other” cars are the ITA and ITB classed Honda Civic/CRX Si that are listed as limited prep/IT Engine eligible cars in G Production.

Specifics

Engine

• IT legal engine (this includes no port matching as specified in the ITCS)
• Allow removal of OE oil injection*
• Allow intake manifold porting under carb for first 1 inch*

* These allowances would serve to aid reliability and performance. This is in keeping with other examples of IT engine, limited prep cars that are allowed compression and cam changes.

Driveline

• Limited prep transmission allowances
• Limited prep clutch/flywheel allowances
• Final drive ratio unrestricted

Suspension/Brakes/Wheels

• Limited prep suspension
• GSL four wheel disk brakes (F 227mm – R 236mm)
• 13 x 7 wheels

Weight

• 2060lbs (2006 GCR E Prod. 79-85 RX7 12A Min. Wt.) minimum weight. Weight added for Limited Prep legal transmission changes.

I believe the inclusion of the popular 79-85 12A RX7 into G Production will bolster the numbers in this class while not upsetting the competitive balance that exists today.

Sincerely


Scott Peterson
Member 175876

************************************************** ***************

Your consideration is greatly apprecaited

[ddewhurst]

Scott, I wish you well with your classing request. Info only, people have tried to get the car non-ported classed in F Production on more than one occasion with a complete reject by the CRB. There is more to a classing request than writting a letter. Look under the SCCA site for classing requirements. Call Topeka or ask Charlie for the paper process required. I was going to do the same at one time & at the time I knew what papers were required, had comparable hp data & lap times with specific car weights. I even did a thread on the Production site looking for support from the Production traditionalists. Some people were helpful & others did side e-mails. A few were flat assed against classing the car because the thing would be reliable & finish races with out the owners having to spend BIG BUCKS DEVELOPING THE MOTOR. After doing the thread on THEIR site with the minimal favorable response I figured fine, I'll sit back & watch H & G get combined because of lack of entrys. There are a couple people in the CenDiv that are converting their ITA/7 cars to cheep E Production cars.

I totaled my ITA/7 last summer, have a new car ready to build but am toying with procuring a Spec Miata. I have interest in the 1st gen non-ported in G Production.

Good luck & please keep us informed.

[email protected]

[mustanghammer]

Originally posted by ddewhurst@Jan 12 2006, 12:39 AM
Scott, I wish you well with your classing request. Info only, people have tried to get the car non-ported classed in F Production on more than one occasion with a complete reject by the CRB. There is more to a classing request than writting a letter. Look under the SCCA site for classing requirements. Call Topeka or ask Charlie for the paper process required. I was going to do the same at one time & at the time I knew what papers were required, had comparable hp data & lap times with specific car weights. I even did a thread on the Production site looking for support from the Production traditionalists. Some people were helpful & others did side e-mails. A few were flat assed against classing the car because the thing would be reliable & finish races with out the owners having to spend BIG BUCKS DEVELOPING THE MOTOR. After doing the thread on THEIR site with the minimal favorable response I figured fine, I'll sit back & watch H & G get combined because of lack of entrys. There are a couple people in the CenDiv that are converting their ITA/7 cars to cheep E Production cars.

I totaled my ITA/7 last summer, have a new car ready to build but am toying with procuring a Spec Miata. I have interest in the 1st gen non-ported in G Production.

Good luck & please keep us informed.


[email protected]

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Thanks David.

Actually Charlie Clark was my first stop with this and he encouraged me to post this here. He likes the concept. I also plan to speak with current G Prod drivers to get their feedback and hopefully, support.

This idea started brewing when I made my first trip to the Run Offs in 2003 as crew for David Long, #82 E Production. I thought about H, G and even F but settled on G as the target for this car. Watching the 2005 G Prod race on Speed I saw the Honda Civic Si that was racing with Mark Webber. That's when I decided to get this request on paper. I mean that's an ITA car and I have one of those too!

I hear you about E Prod. The last two years I have stripped down the interior of my car to do cage work. Everytime I get to a certain point in the project - like when the dash board is setting on the work bench - I get the urge to just keep going!

I will let you and the list know when this is offically sent to the CRB. At the point letters of support couldn't hurt. Would you be interested in sharing your data with me?

Thanks again.

[dickita15]

Scott, I think it is a great idea and many of my rx7 ITA buddies hear in the northeast would love to give it a shot. I would be tempted as well. Understand that you will get resistance from the prod community. There seems to be an attitude that if they make it easy for IT drivers to run prod with out a large investment we will all show up with our $5000 beaters and shove them of the track. There are more than a few who look down on IT driver’s ability.

[mustanghammer]

Originally posted by dickita15@Jan 12 2006, 02:34 PM
Scott, I think it is a great idea and many of my rx7 ITA buddies hear in the northeast would love to give it a shot. I would be tempted as well. Understand that you will get resistance from the prod community. There seems to be an attitude that if they make it easy for IT drivers to run prod with out a large investment we will all show up with our $5000 beaters and shove them of the track. There are more than a few who look down on IT driver’s ability.

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Thanks Dick.

Interesting, in MidDiv it seemed like all of the 2005 carnage ocurred in either Spec Miata or E Production. All of my EP buddies replaced fenders or worse in 2005 and that was before the Run Off!

MidDiv IT was and has been pretty calm by comparison in my experience. It seems like most of the newbees decided to start their club racing career in Spec Miata so maybe that is why. So the experience level is fairly high in IT right now.

Anyway, I personally hate body work and unless I just plain screw up I don't plan on being an accident waiting to happen.

Thanks for the encouragement

[ddewhurst]

Scott, during that time I got so disgusted that I deleated everthing. Pounds of car per hp for class & requested car, Mid Ohio classs track record vrs ITA/7 track record, keeep in mind the things are torqueless compared to other class cars. Should be fun to see what Mark can do with his 2nd gen. I love it, a two car trailer with the Britt & a Jap.

Dick or anyone do you know what the paper work is that's required for classing a car. I know it's more than a letter. I'll need to think somne on this. It seems as tho Topeka will send the requester some fill in the blank sheets that required the manufactures info about the car.

E Z process is to call Topeka because the CRB might otherwise treat the request like, well you know.

[racer14itc]

Scott,

So you're proposing to take 300 lbs off the ITA RX7, give it slicks, brakes it never came with, alternate gear ratios, and limited prep suspension goodies and put it in GP?? All this for a car that is already at the GP lap record (in ITA trim) at VIR? And also very close at Road Atlanta?

And the GP drivers, like myself, are supposed to be excited about this? Especially when we're called bigots and other insults are hurled at us?

The 12A RX7 is already classed in limited prep form in EP. And judging by the Runoffs, it's very competitive. Why not do everything you proposed to your car, run it in EP for a while and then when you're ready or finances dictate, get a fully prepped EP motor?

MC

[mustanghammer]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Jan 12 2006, 06:01 PM
Scott,

So you're proposing to take 300 lbs off the ITA RX7, give it slicks, brakes it never came with, alternate gear ratios, and limited prep suspension goodies and put it in GP?? All this for a car that is already at the GP lap record (in ITA trim) at VIR? And also very close at Road Atlanta?

And the GP drivers, like myself, are supposed to be excited about this? Especially when we're called bigots and other insults are hurled at us?

The 12A RX7 is already classed in limited prep form in EP. And judging by the Runoffs, it's very competitive. Why not do everything you proposed to your car, run it in EP for a while and then when you're ready or finances dictate, get a fully prepped EP motor?

MC

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Thanks for the response

Brakes:

The brakes I listed are the one that a 12A GSL RX7 comes with from the factory. They are the brakes that are spec'd in the ITCS for an ITA Rx7. This is not an upgrade. BTW, 1st Gen E Production RX7's are allowed to use the bigger GSLSE brakes that came with the 13B engine even if they run a 12A

Weight:

This is the wieght that a 12A Stock transmission E Prod. 1st Gen RX7 gets to weigh. I used this as a base line minimum. It has been our experience in MidDiv that it is hard to get to this weight in an 1st Gen RX7 without running a very minimalist cage. To me this a variable that could go up. My car won't get there and I am not running a minimum spec cage to do it.

Track Records

In MidDiv I get to race on the same tracks and on the same days as the current G Production national champion. His times seem to average 6-8 seconds faster than the lap record for IT7 (same as an ITA RX7) at HPT and MAM. He is easily 8+ seconds faster than I am everywhere I race. But that is just MidDiv, maybe your IT7 cars are faster or your G Prod drivers are slower. I do know that In IT my lap times are comparible with Chris Albin's ITB car and given the modifications he is allowed I would be happy to be his equal in G Production

Rx7's in E Prep.

You are right, 1st Gen RX7's are in E Prep as limited prep cars now and I could build one. In fact my car is already completely legal for E Production as it sets. However, there is a precedent set by a number of cars in Production that are spec's as I describe - Limited Prep/IT engine. This would include the Hondas that I reference as well as Miatas in FP. IT doesn't seem right to have a car that is as popular as the RX7 and not give it's owners more that just one opportunity to run it in Production when the same has been extended to other popular cars. I have no disillusions about how expensive any Production car is nor do I doubt the efforts and investment you have. I really do appreciate your comments.

[racer14itc]

Sorry about the brake specs, I'm not an RX7 expert.

What Hondas do you reference have "IT engines"??? All the limited prep Hondas in GP are permitted any camshaft (within lift specs), compression higher than IT rules permit, lightening of internal parts. But I'm sure you already know this.

You put this car in GP as you propose, and GP in the SEDIV would all but die as no one would have a chance on the big, fast tracks down here.

BTW the GP lap records in the SEDIV are held by Kevin Allen, who is every bit as fast as Kent. But I'm sure you already knew that too.

This proposal looks too much like a "gimme", and the AdHoc and CRB are constantly bombarded with these, so I doubt it has much of a chance. But you never know...

MC

[Bill Miller]

So what would be fair Mark? Another 100#? Another 200#?

Scott,

I'd pose this over on the Prod site. Both the Kent and Jesse post there, and both should be able to give some decent insight into the capabilities of the car, in the prep you listed.

[ddewhurst]

Scott, I know in the past when I floated this same subject on the Prod site what Jesse implied/compared the results of his fathers car to the 1st gen non-ported. Mark, do you remember Jesse's thoughts ?

The Honda CRX is in LP F Production. The ITA CRX beats the shit out of the ITA/7 1st gen RX-7 on any track there is at any time.

Also Mark please don't fall into the Matt trap about the the SouthEast momentum tracks & the 1st gen non-ported RX-7. Help us with some of your considerable knowledge getting this car classed in something other than E or F where it don't belong without some porting. All said with a

Bill, ya know what your pal Hap is going to say if & when Scott posts this subject on the Prod site. Dewhurst, ya got 11 pages of milage out of this subject the last time. I didn't start the subject on the Prod site the last time. Frank Axlerod did. Scott, ya know Frank from St Louis who races a G (?) car. One of those that drip that stuff.

[mustanghammer]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Jan 12 2006, 08:11 PM
Sorry about the brake specs, I'm not an RX7 expert.

What Hondas do you reference have "IT engines"??? All the limited prep Hondas in GP are permitted any camshaft (within lift specs), compression higher than IT rules permit, lightening of internal parts. But I'm sure you already know this.

You put this car in GP as you propose, and GP in the SEDIV would all but die as no one would have a chance on the big, fast tracks down here.

BTW the GP lap records in the SEDIV are held by Kevin Allen, who is every bit as fast as Kent. But I'm sure you already knew that too.

This proposal looks too much like a "gimme", and the AdHoc and CRB are constantly bombarded with these, so I doubt it has much of a chance. But you never know...

MC

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Mark,

The Hondas are on PCS pages 68 and 69. The term used in the GCR is IT Carburetion so my use of the term IT Engine may be incorrect. Yes, limited prep engines do get to make bolt on changes and do port matching. I am not asking for that in this proposal with exception of port work under the Carb. This of course would not stop a builder from lightening the rotors but I would not be opposed to restricting that practice as well.

I would imagine that we would experience a similar result at Gateway in St Louis and Hallet in Oklahoma. RX7's do better at those tracks than they do at HPT and MAM. No question about it, if given enough room an ITA/IT7 RX7 can get some speed.

Sorry but I wasn't aware of Kevin Allen and didn't mean to imply that G Prod cars are slow in your neck of the woods. Don't mean to offend.

If you are interested in having more cars to race against - one of the reasons I am making this proposal - then help me make this less than a gimme. In all and complete honesty I am NOT looking to install a ringer in G Prod. That would serve no purpose for you or me. I think there is a happy medium here that allows a car to get classed, doesn't immediately destroy status quo and is competitive enough to make the car an attractive option to others.

Thanks again, this is good stuff

[wlfpkrcn]

Here is my gut reaction and .02 cents. In theory it's a good idea. The reality is I think it's a bad idea. If your goal is to transition from IT to Prod that could be done going into EP with your current IT car. Would it be competitive? No, but you can do it. With your proposal would you be competitive? I don't think so. You would still need all the fiberglass, suspension, fuel cell, cage that a EP car has. The only cost you are trying to by-pass is building an engine. In the long run you would only save 1-2k as compared to converting to EP. Not to open another can of worms, but would you allow the hat style rotors the EP cars get? Is the consensous that with 13x7 slicks will not break the hubs? What about Mazda starting to reduce the 12A stuff? I think it would be great if you can get it classed, an I wish you the best of luck.

Eric

[tderonne]

2.3 Mustang into prod:

Slow ITB car, lots of the same arguments as an ITA RX7.

CRB classed it as a limited prep EP car. (Where there's a full prep 2.3 Pinto.)

Unwritten rule: nothing over 2.2 liters in FP. ITA RX7 is considered a 2.4 for such comparisons, no?

Their official answer will be interesting. As for needing other data, they should already have a VTS for the RX7, any other data would be used only for discussion, if it makes it that far.

[ddewhurst]

***Not to open another can of worms, but would you allow the hat style rotors the EP cars get? Is the consensous that with 13x7 slicks will not break the hubs? ***

Eric, the answer to brake rotors is NO. There is a world of difference in the design of the 12A & THE 13B rotors. There is also a world of difference between a 220 rwhp 13B & a 130 rwhp 12A in terms of trap speed. Leave the shortage of 12A parts for a seperate discussion.

Tim, if the ITA Honda CRX can beat the shit out of ANY ITA/7 12A any day of the week at any track & the CRX is classed in F Production would you call classing the 1st gen 12A non-ported in F Production fair ? At worse if the 12A is over in G just leave some weight on the car or do some other limiting factor. Can you say torqueless ?

[wlfpkrcn]

There is a world of difference in the design of the 12A & THE 13B rotors

Ok, I'll take your word for it. I've never looked that close

There is also a world of difference between a 220 rwhp 13B & a 130 rwhp 12A in terms of trap speed

I recall the Miata's running 13" wheels in EP, even though they are allowed 15x7's (and winning the runoffs). I would have to assume that you can generate equal or greater exits speeds with the 13's. (might be application specific and only work on Miata's). In other words you can generate the same loads on the hub.

Leave the shortage of 12A parts for a seperate discussion.

Why? It is becoming an issue with the old british cars currently running G&H prod. Adding another car with dwindeling parts availability doesn't seem to be a good long term solution to car counts.

I'm not trying to rain on anybodies parade. In the grand scheme of things it would benefit me. It just adds another class my car could be run in and keep some value. The car I'm currently building is a 13b EP car, it would just be an engine swap to go GP.

Good luck,
E

[ddewhurst]

***I recall the Miata's running 13" wheels in EP, even though they are allowed 15x7's (and winning the runoffs). I would have to assume that you can generate equal or greater exits speeds with the 13's. (might be application specific and only work on Miata's). In other words you can generate the same loads on the hub***

Eric, the Miata is an absolute different hub than either the 12A or 13B hubs.

Good luck with your E car.

Do you have a last name, where will you race & when will the car be on track ? Color/number ?

[wlfpkrcn]

Eric, the Miata is an absolute different hub than either the 12A or 13B hubs.

I was only using the Miata as an example of the loads that can be generated with 13x7's. They have completely different brakes compared to a first gen.

where will you race & when will the car be on track ? Color/number ?

I live in NorCal so SF region. Hopefully the car will be on track by July, running some NASA events. It is currently just a stripped 79' chassis w/ GSLSE suspension. It used to be my street car (4 port 13b w/ street porting). I have a 6 port motor that has some minor porting as a backup and legal EP motor. I'll use the 4 port for testing since it is closer to a good EP motor than the 6 port. I have most of the hard parts I need to build a "real" EP motor. We'll be doing the cage in March. It won't be in full EP trim until next year some time. It will be RX8 blue. No car number yet. My Pro7 car used to be #50, so we'll shoot for that.

Once again good luck I hope you get it classed

E

[ddewhurst]

Eric, if ya want to watch one of the fastest 1 st gen's in the country keep an eye on Bob Neal from the left coast. Met Bob a couple years ago at the Runoffs. Look his car over, it's first class all the way with a Dave Lemon motor. If Bob has his razzel dazzel exhaust after the reax axle you will not beleive the configuration. WOW :119:

[mustanghammer]

Originally posted by wlfpkrcn@Jan 13 2006, 08:12 PM
Here is my gut reaction and .02 cents. In theory it's a good idea. The reality is I think it's a bad idea. If your goal is to transition from IT to Prod that could be done going into EP with your current IT car. Would it be competitive? No, but you can do it. With your proposal would you be competitive? I don't think so. You would still need all the fiberglass, suspension, fuel cell, cage that a EP car has. The only cost you are trying to by-pass is building an engine. In the long run you would only save 1-2k as compared to converting to EP. Not to open another can of worms, but would you allow the hat style rotors the EP cars get? Is the consensous that with 13x7 slicks will not break the hubs? What about Mazda starting to reduce the 12A stuff? I think it would be great if you can get it classed, an I wish you the best of luck.

Eric

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Thanks for the response.

I think David has responded to several of your points already so I won't rehash them. My car is E Production legal now. In fact it can be ran in GT2, GT3, and E Production and it most likely will be rented out this year to someone that needs a start and a finish.

To me the difference is cost and that includes the following:

Ported Engine - $2000-5000.00

Depending on what you start with and who does the work this can be pricy. I have a good motor now that would just need a refresh and porting.

Racing trans - $2500-6000.00

The reality of a ported motor is a racing transmission. Not just because to the need to have close ratios but also because of realiability. We have a couple of racers that tried 626 boxes behind ported motors and they killed them pretty regularly. By the way, the best deal I have seen is a Jerico Y2K box that came from NASCAR Nextell Cup that was used for road race qualifying when qualifying boxes were allowed. It has REM'd gears that are narrowed and the shafts are all gun drilled. The box cost about $2500.00 used and Jerico makes an adapter. Unfortunately the flow of good used Jerios has dried up a bit because Nextell Cup teams switched to another brand of transmission. Anyway, this box is major over-kill behind a rotary and has been stone realable.

15 Inch Wheels and tires - ?

First I have to buy wheels I don't have and then buy more expensive tires. Consumables is one of the things that I considered with this proposal.

Body Work - ?

The smaller 13" wheel and tire combination should fit under mildly modified stock fenders. To save weight I will build my own glass fenders.

So far parts have not been a problem for me. I bought two 85 RX7's in the last two weeks for peanuts. One is for parts and the other is a good street/raceacar candidate. So I don't think RX7's are at the point of being hard to maintain.....yet.

Thanks again and good luck on your project.