Car too Low? '83 GTI ITB car

[shwah]

Originally posted by JLawton@Jan 19 2006, 12:14 PM
I "think" (I'm no expert) that even at a correct ride height and depending on how you have your camber tuned in: whether it's by the camber plates, which will pinch the axle in, or with the bolts in the strut, which will not push the axle in.
To ge the proper camber on one side of my car, I have to have the camber plate pushed all the way towards the engine, which pushes the axle towards the tranny. I had a CV joint blow up on me and we think it was due to the axle shredding the seal and sending chips into the CV joint.

Hope I'm making sense...........

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I always adjust the bottom side towards positive and then use the camber plate to get the camber I want. This keeps the outer CV as far as I can from the trans, hopefully making this 'halfshaft bind' issue less likely for me.

Chris

[JamesB]

yeah, last night I went to check on my car, your right the driver side lacks nearly all room for play so looseing 30mm on the axle length would be better. But its not binding on my car, its just tight. I have plates.

[Bildon]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Jan 17 2006, 10:47 PM
Under what rule would shortening the half-shafts be legal?
AB

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Andy, people get confused because certain un-named VW parts purveyors sell them shortened...and they sell them to IT guys too.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Bildon@Jan 19 2006, 10:56 AM
Andy, people get confused because certain un-named VW parts purveyors sell them shortened...and they sell them to IT guys too.

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:P

[RSTPerformance]

I have herd of VW's having short axles to avoid this "loweing" problem... I would be disapointed if any Norhteast cars had this modification as it seems to me like it would clearly be illigal...

Raymond

[GITroadracer]

"Under what rule would shortening the half-shafts be legal? "

Never said it was legal, just telling what people do to avoid the problem.

Several places sell the shortened shafts.

I prefer the cheaper/easier method of raising the car, helps the geometry with bump steer issues.

Oh ya, its legal too.

[eMKay]

So what ride height would be optimal? I played with it today and have the rear at 23" (ground to top of wheel well) and the front at 23 7/8" The A arms are slightly angled down toward the center of the car. In the rear it seems that I can drop further, I have another 3/4 of an inch left in the coilovers, and slightly less than that in clearance from the tire to the fender.Will I run into rubbing issues going any lower in the rear?

Picture of front and back...

[JLawton]

You should base your ride height on having your control arms level and then corner weighing the car........

[eMKay]

You should base your ride height on having your control arms level and then corner weighing the car........
[/b]

So leave the rear alone for now and crank the front up some more?

[Conover]

No, get that rear as low as you can.

[msogren]

You may use ecentric control arm bushings to move the wheels out and reduce the axle interferance. This also helps by needing less camber adjustment at the strut. When at all possible, add camber at the bottom of the car, not the strut tops. This widens the car, (often more better.)
Anyplace where there are bolts that hold the control arm, should be optimized. That is ,the balljoint bolts should be pulled out as far as you can, before tightening. the control arm bolts, etc.
You may also shove the engine away from the short axle side to keep it from hitting the end, with a stay bar or creative slotting of the mount areas. Most often the short axle breaks. The lowest the car should be is the axle hits the body/fender well. at full down. You may find that A 1 axles are shorter than A2. Check the part #. Most are not the same, yet fit the car.
WFM,,, MM

I foregot; the rear height determines the inside front wheel traction, also turn in push. raising the rear gives a better turn in , but also lifts the front wheel and will go slower. I predict that you will go slower with the rear any higher than needed to keep the tires off the fender. MM

[joeg]

Mike--How the heck you been? Long time no see.

This guy knows his VW(S)!

[Bildon]

>> I predict that you will go slower with the rear any higher than needed

I can support that prediction with testing. Our setup runs the cars with the rear lower than the front.
(as per VWM) See the Blethen photo above... notice the "rake" here at Pocono is probably not optimal due to the large amount of time spent at high speed. But on most other tracks it's proven better.

[RSTPerformance]

You may use ecentric control arm bushings to move the wheels out and reduce the axle interferance. This also helps by needing less camber adjustment at the strut. When at all possible, add camber at the bottom of the car, not the strut tops. This widens the car, (often more better.)
Anyplace where there are bolts that hold the control arm, should be optimized. That is ,the balljoint bolts should be pulled out as far as you can, before tightening. the control arm bolts, etc.
You may also shove the engine away from the short axle side to keep it from hitting the end, with a stay bar or creative slotting of the mount areas. Most often the short axle breaks. The lowest the car should be is the axle hits the body/fender well. at full down. You may find that A 1 axles are shorter than A2. Check the part #. Most are not the same, yet fit the car.
WFM,,, MM

I foregot; the rear height determines the inside front wheel traction, also turn in push. raising the rear gives a better turn in , but also lifts the front wheel and will go slower. I predict that you will go slower with the rear any higher than needed to keep the tires off the fender. MM
[/b]

Does anyone think some of these recomendations are illigal??? Just wondering others opinions....

ecentric control arm bushings

A 1 axles are shorter than A2. Check the part #. Most are not the same, yet fit the car

creative slotting of the mount areas

[Bill Miller]

Does anyone think some of these recomendations are illigal??? Just wondering others opinions....

ecentric control arm bushings

A 1 axles are shorter than A2. Check the part #. Most are not the same, yet fit the car

creative slotting of the mount areas
[/b]

On the subject of the first item on your list:

17.1.4.D.5.d.1 sez...

Cars equipped with MacPherson strut suspension may
decamber wheels by the use of eccentric bushings at
control arm pivot points, by the use of eccentric bushings
at the strut-to-bearing-carrier joint, and/or by use of
slotted adjusting plates at the top mounting point. If
slotted plates are used, they shall be located on existing
chassis structure and may not serve as a reinforcement
for that structure. Material may be added or removed
from the top of the strut tower to facilitate installation
of adjuster plate.[/b]

(emphasis mine)

So, I think the eccentric control arm bushing is fine. The other two items,

[RSTPerformance]

nice responce Bill... I like your thinking

[msogren]

Lets look at the facts;
How many ITB VWs are there??
How many blow axles every hour or so??
if all of the dubs had stock , long axles. They would bust a lot of axles. A2 are worse than A1 for some reason. Somewhere in the car, some correction has been made to keep axles in the car.
I actually have legal , stock off the shelf axles( autozone liftime ) in my current A1 Rocker. I have welded in lower bushings that seem to have solved that issue for me. The welded diff hurts them all by it self.
I had a Golf and a Rock and used the same axles for both, in the past.
MM

[Bill Miller]

Lets look at the facts;
How many ITB VWs are there??
How many blow axles every hour or so??
if all of the dubs had stock , long axles. They would bust a lot of axles. A2 are worse than A1 for some reason. Somewhere in the car, some correction has been made to keep axles in the car.
I actually have legal , stock off the shelf axles( autozone liftime ) in my current A1 Rocker. I have welded in lower bushings that seem to have solved that issue for me. The welded diff hurts them all by it self.
I had a Golf and a Rock and used the same axles for both, in the past.
MM
[/b]

I'm not sure, but I think you just said it's ok to use alternate parts because the stock ones break.

[JLawton]

Lets look at the facts;
How many ITB VWs are there??
How many blow axles every hour or so??
if all of the dubs had stock , long axles. They would bust a lot of axles. A2 are worse than A1 for some reason. Somewhere in the car, some correction has been made to keep axles in the car.
I actually have legal , stock off the shelf axles( autozone liftime ) in my current A1 Rocker. I have welded in lower bushings that seem to have solved that issue for me. The welded diff hurts them all by it self.
I had a Golf and a Rock and used the same axles for both, in the past.
MM
[/b]

Here we go again. The "it's OK to do because it makes the car more reliable" argument. The ONLY legal way to fix the axle problem: Bring plenty of spares with you, get your camber from the strut, not the camber plates, rebuild/replace often and ...........bring spares!!

[JamesB]

Spares spares spares. Thats really the only legal way to handle the proper ride height for suspension geomentry. shifting the motor or shortening the axles are blatently illegal. At least these axles are cheap as dirt now, so keeping a spare set isnt that hard.